A Massive DE Problem with DOA

[Astorath the Grim]

I have a few questions for my own curiosity. How many marines are in the units you typically charge and beat? What is the load out for your wyches?

 

I'm interested in this as well. I'd like to know the numbers involved in each unit; the weapons load-out involved in each unit and any special rules, such as Furious Charge or Feel No Pain. Also out of curiosity. I'd like to run the numbers myself and see what I come out with.

 

:)

 

Lets not turn this thread into yet another Mathhammer good, no mathhammer evil debate.

 

I've made my point and I don't have anything further to say on the issue, but I'm still curious to know what the set-up of his units is. :)

 

Sorry JamesI, I did not mean to start that discussion again

 

10 man assault squads, sometimes with fnp sometimes not...as I said the BA players here haven't learned that the fnp bubble is hard to maintain when chasing down DE. Typically my wyches are bare bones cept the agonizer. I haven't been able to squeeze in wyche weapons yet at the points lvls we are playing at. Sometimes they have furious charge sometimes not...more often then not they do not have furious charge however. furious charge does increase the number of wounds to my wyches usually...wyches still strike first.

 

I have also had my asault squads and my DC mowed down by wyches, its pretty brutal combat usually.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

And if you look in the DE dex, you'll find that the elite 'bloodbrides' full name is Hekatrix bloodbrides...and their stats are exactly the same as the upgrade...so if you put 2 and 2 together...

 

Of course I don't expect that to happen every game, however in the years that I played that army they never failed to make back waay more then their points

 

Once again my point is that too many people on these forums seem to think it is the end all be all of everything and take nothing into account other then the math hammer...THAT is my only point

Quite possibly Its just not what I know them as. Its not the sort of leap in logic I have trained in there.

 

I understand that but MY point is that you are wrong :)

 

Read over the conversation again. We are discussing this with a player who has at least some trouble against DE remember.

 

???: Wyches really arent that amazing as a combat unit.

You: Incorrect. Wyches always kill everything in 1-2 combat rounds in my experience.

Me: Really? I've never seen that EVER.

OP: Thats what they did to me!

Me: Well heres why they probably shouldnt all the time but it IS possible. *maths*

You: Mathhammer is unreliable and I dont like it.

Me: Are you crazy? Its really quite useful for assorted things.

*Silly Bickering between us*

 

I dont entirely know why I summarized that beyond the fact I thought it was interesting. Anyway Experience is great! And I dont begrudge you posting your experiences in this thread BUT Mathhammer is a much more important tool for people without experience. It is something they can start from and when you can. You shouldnt be upset at Mathhammer if you dont like it skim over it and move on. You could even put your experiences in along with it. But context is important right. Anyone can read this even without alot of gaming experience and to come in and say something like "THIS ONE TIME MY GUARDSMEN KILLED 10 BLOODCRUSHERS IN MELEE!" Might not be so helpful. But coming in and saying "you know in my experience guardsmen do alright with weight of attacks in combat but they really ought not to." Is.

 

 

Just something to think about ;)

 

 

EditL Sorry James you ninjad me whilst I was posting.

(Double Edits all across the sky) Acutally I think I was just being stupid and missed your post James. :)

[Astorath the Grim]

And if you look in the DE dex, you'll find that the elite 'bloodbrides' full name is Hekatrix bloodbrides...and their stats are exactly the same as the upgrade...so if you put 2 and 2 together...

 

Of course I don't expect that to happen every game, however in the years that I played that army they never failed to make back waay more then their points

 

Once again my point is that too many people on these forums seem to think it is the end all be all of everything and take nothing into account other then the math hammer...THAT is my only point

Quite possibly Its just not what I know them as. Its not the sort of leap in logic I have trained in there.

 

I understand that but MY point is that you are wrong :)

 

Read over the conversation again. We are discussing this with a player who has at least some trouble against DE remember.

 

???: Wyches really arent that amazing as a combat unit.

You: Incorrect. Wyches always kill everything in 1-2 combat rounds in my experience.

Me: Really? I've never seen that EVER.

OP: Thats what they did to me!

Me: Well heres why they probably shouldnt all the time but it IS possible. *maths*

You: Mathhammer is unreliable and I dont like it.

Me: Are you crazy? Its really quite useful for assorted things.

*Silly Bickering between us*

 

I dont entirely know why I summarized that beyond the fact I thought it was interesting. Anyway Experience is great! And I dont begrudge you posting your experiences in this thread BUT Mathhammer is a much more important tool for people without experience. It is something they can start from and when you can. You shouldnt be upset at Mathhammer if you dont like it skim over it and move on. You could even put your experiences in along with it. But context is important right. Anyone can read this even without alot of gaming experience and to come in and say something like "THIS ONE TIME MY GUARDSMEN KILLED 10 BLOODCRUSHERS IN MELEE!" Might not be so helpful. But coming in and saying "you know in my experience guardsmen do alright with weight of attacks in combat but they really ought not to." Is.

 

 

Just something to think about :)

 

 

Yes I know he is having problems with DE, which is why I offered my advice as a BA and a DE player....shoot the wyches to death. The one sure fire way to kill them, only thing that can save them against marine shooting is fnp.

 

Also...flamers...flamers are your best friend when shooting wyches...I love/hate flamers

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wyches are absolutely amazing in melee.

 

G :)

[Brother_Byhlli]

Yes I know he is having problems with DE, which is why I offered my advice as a BA and a DE player....shoot the wyches to death. The one sure fire way to kill them, only thing that can save them against marine shooting is fnp.

 

Also...flamers...flamers are your best friend when shooting wyches...I love/hate flamers

 

I often make the mistake of thinking bolters and flamers are rubbish because I'm used to shrugging off attacks from people wielding them. They bounce off power armour.

 

But of course, you're right. Against the vast majority of units in 40K, bolters and flamers are foul. I should look into including them in my list.

[Astorath the Grim]

well personally I don't bother with bolters in my BA lists...I hate tac squads...I run nothing but assault squads, however bolt pistols accomplish the same thing...especially when teamed up with flamers.

 

And I use flamers against other marines as well...yer bound to kill one or two with one shot at least. If not more...

[Brother_Byhlli]

well personally I don't bother with bolters in my BA lists...I hate tac squads...I run nothing but assault squads, however bolt pistols accomplish the same thing...especially when teamed up with flamers.

 

And I use flamers against other marines as well...yer bound to kill one or two with one shot at least. If not more...

 

Haha! Funnily enough, while mathhammer tells me that you're right (two flamers both hitting four Space Marines each statistically cause 1.33 wounds), in this case it's my experience flying in the face of the numbers - I've never lost a Space Marine to flamers, ever.

 

:P

 

And no, I don't bother with Tactical Squads in my Blood Angels. I firmly believe there is no reason to take them, ever. But that's a discussion for another thread!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A flamer is a great weapon for assault squads as they are mobile enough to be able to use them effectively plus the large concentration of wounds helps to make up for the one shot bolt pistols. Unfortunately though due to the plethora of mech lists it's generally more effective to run double meltaguns.

 

G :P

[Brother_Byhlli]

A flamer is a great weapon for assault squads as they are mobile enough to be able to use them effectively plus the large concentration of wounds helps to make up for the one shot bolt pistols. Unfortunately though due to the plethora of mech lists it's generally more effective to run double meltaguns.

 

G :P

 

Yeah. I find that the meltaguns are good enough - they still improve damage output against hordes.

 

But I do wish I could have a reason for flinging that silly flamer template around every now and then. :)

[Red Horizon]

After reading all of these posts, and there were a lot, I think I finally came up with some sort of plan. AbusePuppy is definitely right about ravagers being huge amounts of anti-mech firepower (in a vs DOA situation), so unless it's completely unrealistic I think I'll gun for them first. The pressure they put out to make me do something was horrendous, and I didn't have a few turns to line up anything, or else i would have been wiped out. Getting rid of those puppies would definitely allow a more tactical approach to the game than a reckless rush because my guys were dropping too fast.

 

Secondly, 1250 is damn hard to play BA at I think, but I'm willing to try it again because it makes for fast games, and since I'm just learning the DOA style of army, I'll take some quick games just to get used to everything. However, it would be nice to play at least 1750, which was my intent when I went to the LFGS.

 

It also looks like several people are recommending the fear psychic power, which I've never used, so that is definitely on the list to try this coming weekend as well.

 

I'd invest in one to two Stormravens. The missiles can outrange their skimmers' shooting. Destroy them at range then engage. And watch out for Vect as he has that grenade pack that beats Marines.

 

G :)

 

How do you fit stormravens into a DOA list? Everything else has a 75% chance of coming in first, turn, and those only have a 50% chance, on top of being almost as expensive as an entire squad of assault marines. What I'd have to drop to fit one of those into even a 1750 DOA list worries me quite a lot.

 

I don't deny that some ranged firepower would be a hell of a boost to possibilities in tactics, and i don't like the prospect of relatively immobile devastators in the back regardless of how effective they might be. So the SR's have grabbed my interest, but i have no idea how to make them work, especially because I can barely play a pure DOA list to begin with!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One Stormraven has always been enough for me when I used them. They do take a sizable chunk of points out of a 1750 list and even up to 1850. At 2k and above though you can take one and it doesn't have a negative impact on the army as a whole in terms of what else you need to bring to the table.

 

DE is a problem for two reasons versus our DoA:

 

1) distinct of long range AT

2) DE can match and even outpace our mobility

 

Both of these reasons are why I see a Stormraven as a solid deterrent to dark eldar in general - it's very fast and provides the much needed long range AT. Having to hold it in reserve though kind of defeats it's purpose as you need it during the initial part of a game to shoot down the xenos skimmers. I fought dark eldar once while using a Stormraven... It took out some skimmers, delivered a unit where I needed them then was immobilized... As far as I'm concerned it served it's purpose.

 

Versus DE I tend to focus on killing their scoring units first. In army devoid of mech the Ravagers are a bit overkill plus I can usually get some cover when I need it so I tend not to focus on the Ravagers unless an easy opportunity presents itself. Now if there is a Ravager with disintegrators then I'll try to take it out as quickly as possible but I have found they are typically armed with three dark lances.

 

G ^_^

[Bradley Powers]

I have some input on your Stormraven question. In preparation for 'Ard Boyz, my FLGS ran a 2000 point tournament roughly 3 weeks ago. I ran this list:

 

Mephiston

 

Sang. Priest, JP

Furioso Dreadnought, Blood Talons

 

DC, 10 marines, Lemmy

DC Dreadnought, Blood Talons

Assault Squad, 2 meltaguns, power fist

Assault Squad, 2 meltaguns, power fist

 

Stormraven, TL MM, TL AC

Stormraven, TL MM, TL AC

Stormraven, TL MM, TL LC

 

I came in second in the tourney (in spite of collusion between the TO/store owner and one of his buddies) and won myself $20! More importantly, this list is a kick in the pants to play. I have 3 dreadnoughts (counting Mephiston, of course) running around with the DC kicking in teeth, plenty of shooting to pop foul Xenos skimmers (my store has a ton of Tau and DE) and sufficient scoring troops (more might be nice, perhaps).

 

As for the Math Hammer debate, one thing that I find crucially lacking in most analyses (and I apologize to the math haters in the crowd) is use of Standard Deviation, and CDFs. With the addition of these things (which is super simple, we're dealing with dice rolls) one can gain further insight, and instead of getting things like "this unit *should* do two wounds* you can get "this unit will do 2 wounds, stdev 1 wound." This in turn gives you absolutely perfect, inarguable mathammer, as opposed to very bad means only analysis. That is all.

[AbusePuppy]

I don't like Stormravens in DoA- they don't solve your primary problem (lack of overall firepower) because, for 200pts, you can get a LOT more than the two guns they carry from another platform. They also don't get the reroll to arrive (meaning they are less reliable) and their ability to carry troops to where they're needed is largely wasted on Assault Marines, who already have excellent mobility thanks to being Jump Infantry.

 

(With regards to using standard deviation in mathhammer, it doesn't get tossed around because anyone who understands the terminology well enough to make sense of such measurements will also be able to do the math themselves rather easily. It's preaching to the choir, basically; the expected results are a good enough approximation unless you're looking pretty deep into some unusual comparisons of units, such as figuring how likely Lightning Claws are to kill a target vs. Thunder Hammers, etc.)

 

@Red Horizon

Don't be offput by Devastators immobility- it's less of a problem than you'd think. They give you a very strong shooting support component that can really change the way matchups are played; my Tyranids can walk all over a pure jumpers list, but Devastators spamming missiles can severely weaken my MCs or Gaunt screens to the point where the fight isn't so easy. However, if you aren't keen to run them, you NEED to have some Vanguard Veterans in your list to disable problem targets on your arrival; they don't need to be heavily kitted (my preferred loadout is Sarge with a Thunder Hammer and one other guy with a Power Weapon, but many people prefer to drop the PW and take a Storm Shield or two), but you cannot afford to be leaving the enemy be the turn you arrive. They can tie up screening squads, delay (and sometimes even kill) monstrous creatures, force tanks to keep moving, annihilate heavy weapons units, and perform a variety of other helpful roles in a jump army.

[Red Horizon]

@AbusePuppy

I definitely plan on using VV's normally from now on. The only reason I didn't in this game was because I knew he was going to have an absurd amount of shooting, so I thought more bodies would be best, but that didn't work out.

 

Here's the list I'm hoping to try at 1750 this weekend. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=235942

The librarian will play around with using fear though. Depending on how it goes vs a few armies, I might drop dante + sanguinary guard and look at some options regarding SR's or devastators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The problem with VV is if all the skimmers have moved over 6" then they are hitting on 6+. The unit arrives then is gunned down... If you use them like that. Check out my blog - I've got some tactical articles on the use of Stormravens. A lot of peops have told me it helped their game.

 

G :huh: