Index Astartes: Chimeras

[Donkey Kong]

This is the current Outline

Origins:

-Twenty First Founding

-Sanctioned by the High Lords of Terra to attempt recreating the Primarchs

-Researched by the Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica

-Initial results yield monsters known as chimeras for possessing a varied genome and daemonic characteristic

-Successful homunculi created motivating scientists to continue working and attracts outside attention

-Homunculi anatomy/ physiology: Functional space marine implants, minus black carapace, naturally present, shorter and leaner than average space marines, latent psykers incapable of further concentrating powers, latent psychic ability channeled through willpower allows for near instantaneous regeneration, however they quickly exhaust This is my visual inspiration.

-Radical Inquisitors push scientists to continue working on the project in secret after the High Lords lose faith in it

Homeworld:

-Fleet based

-Maintain positions in empty space between Imperial Sectors

-Teams belonging to the Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astra Telepahtica maintain constant presence

-Inquisitorial advocates recruit scientific minds to join existing Teams

Organizaion:

-Under-strength

-Between 4 and 6 full strength codex battle companies at any given time

-No Librarians, no Apothecaries, no Techmarines

-Record keeping done by Imperial scientists and Inquisitorial servants

-Armory maintenance conducted by Adeptus Mechanicus

-Chaplains maintain mental strength

Combat Doctrine:

-Tackle obstacles head on

-Utilize failed creations as forward shock units

Chapter Cult

-Believe in a kinship with the chimeras

-View themselves as the Emperor's Living Weapons

Gene-Seed

-No Gene-Seed

-Venerate all Primarchs

 

Heraldy: Chimera with a ram head facing forward and a lion head facing back

Off White Armor (bare ceramite) with Orange Pauldrons

 

Original Post:

Premise: The Chimeras are a Chapter in function alone. In terms of creation, they are completely different beasts, more akin to the Primarchs than any Space Marine. Unlike most chapters who recruit from human populations, Chimeras are homunculi, false humans created through a combination of warpcraft and arcane science. Chimeras are superior to Space Marines in many ways, naturally possessing most of the biological augmentations that most members of the Adeptus Astartes undergo perilous surgeries to obtain. By the very nature of their creation, Chimeras are all latent psykers, giving them miraculous healing abilities, capable of regenerating complete organs and limbs [see: Wolverine (X-Men)/ Homunculi (Fullmetal Alchemist)]. However, for every advantage they have over typical Space Marines, Chimeras possess a number of flaws that prevent them from standing on par. Chimeras lack the Black Carapace iconic to the Adeptus Astartes, and cannot use Space Marine grade Powered Armor, instead relying on lower grade suits. Chimeras also lack the ability to use dreadnoughts, as there are no mortally wounded Chimeras, only the living and the dead. As latent psykers, Chimeras are vulnerable to attacks from the aether, and make common use of psychic hoods to protect themselves. Since their abilities are inherently latent, Brothers also lack the ability to focus their powers. There are no psychic Chimeras.

 

The Chimera creation process possesses many dangers in of itself, producing more monsters than men. The daemonic beasts created are the true horrors of warpcraft, otherworldly creatures, neither human nor animal, and not of this dimension proper, true chimeras [see: Chimeras (Fullmetal Alchemist)]. With the inherent strengths of all homunculi, they are the greatest reminder for all brothers of the Chapter of how close they all are to being monsters themselves. Chimeras use these beasts in all manners of roles, as forward shock troops, guards, and training tools. They are a near limitless resource, with every failed attempt at creating a homunculi resulting in such beasts.

 

Easily, the Chimeras are the most ambitions project of the Twenty First Founding. And with the successful records of its members, they are proving to be worth the effort.

 

Color scheme: I imagine something including orange, weather pure Orange or Quartered Orange and Blue is up to debate. This could be something else entirely if someone suggests something better.

 

Heraldry: Based on the Space Wolf "Double Wolf" as I call it. I imagine it to be two Lion Heads facing outward or a Goat Head facing forward and a Lion Head facing backward. With the second idea, the symbolism is with the horns, whether daemonic or simply weapons facing the enemy and the noble face looking backwards, giving a false impression on these Space Marines.

 

Chimeras do not have psychic librarians, whether they have librarians at all depends on how I choose to develop them. Chimeras do not have apothecaries. They regenerate of their own accord and they possess no gene-seed. Chimeras are inherently introverted as a Chapter, seeing the best way to disguise the fact that they are not true humans by simply not talking with other humans or Space Marines. This may vary depending on whether or not their relationship with the Inquisition is close or distant. This, in of itself, is a huge determining factor with how the chapter will carry itself in secret, hiding from everyone, including or excluding some of the most powerful men and women in the Imperium. This also determines their equipment. They lack Power Armor proper, using suits more akin to Inquisitors and the Sisters of Battle.

 

So, comment away and let's see where we can take this idea.

[TrashMan]

I can't see this ending in a good way....

 

SM that aren't SM's. FMA the Warhammer40K spin-off. :woot:

[Ring-around-the-roses]

So...

 

They don't use power armour.

They don't have geneseed, or recruit like everyone else.

They sound a lot like DE

They also have absolutely no linkages with any Chapter, bar calling themselves a Chapter.

 

:woot:

[Reyner]

Sounds a bit weird at the moment King...

[DarkCrusader]

the 1 part i did like about it is the references to the 2nd most awesome manga ever...

Full metal Alchemist! :P

[TrashMan]

the 1 part i did like about it is the references to the 2nd most awesome manga ever...

Full metal Alchemist! ;)

 

 

Meh...FMA is overblown...

[TennisBall]

Who created them and why were they allowed to do so?

[TheDVoid]

I doubt the Inquisition would like these guys.

All latent psykers, rapid healing, are not

space marines and barely sound human.

 

Honestly these guys made me think of Orks.

[Donkey Kong]

Ah, such positive feedback.

 

Who created them and why were they allowed to do so?

 

Well, I did, and I'm "allowed to do so" because there is no canon. /

To be less clever and more blunt, That's one of the biggest questions I asked in the OP, thanks for reiterating it.

 

I doubt the Inquisition would like these guys.

All latent psykers, rapid healing, are not

space marines and barely sound human.

 

That depends on what relationship I choose to create with the Inquisition, lest we not forget that the Grey Knights now practice sorcery and the Exorcists all have exorcisms as a right of passage. The Primarchs were all psykers to some degree, and space marines are already "barely human."

 

So,

 

Sounds a bit weird at the moment King...

 

That's good. They should sound weird. They are weird.

 

According to Lexicanum, as official as it gets, "The focus of the Twenty First Founding was perfecting and removing deficiencies in flawed gene-seed, and ultimately the production of a new Primarch-like being in project "Homo Sapiens Novus""

 

Following that, this Chimera Project is following in those footsteps. For all of you shouting that these characters do not sound like space marines, that's good, and they shouldn't. They should sound like the Primarchs. As I said in the OP, "Easily, the Chimeras are the most ambitions project of the Twenty First Founding."

 

Now, we delve into my views of the universe. I personally dislike the whole "all political entities are out for themselves, blah, blah, blah" approach that so many people take with the Imperium. I fully believe that the Imperium cannot exist without all entities cooperating to reach common goals, everyone knows this, and even when entities have their own agendas, they know that they cannot hope to exist without one another. If the Chimeras are going to be Homunculi, they require some kind of biological specialists to be involved in their creation, enter: Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis branches. Now, they're also being created using methods similar to the Primarchs, and we all know that that involved warpcraft, enter: Adeptus Astra Telepathica, the entity responsible for the recruitment of all psykers in the Imperium. These two entities, and possibly more if the need arises, are responsible for the creation of this Chapter. Location is a completely different issue. I suppose Luna would still have labs available from the creation of the first space marines :wub: .

 

The Chimeras do not have a founding cadre. Their gene-seed systems are fully functional, matching the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. With all of your feedback in mind, they should also have a close relationship with the Inquisition. Inquisitorial entities may play a larger role in their creating, pushing scientists to continue working on the project when efforts yield monsters instead of false humans. They are a "Chapter" more in line with the likes of the Grey Knights and the Exorcists, an Inquisitorial unit first and space marines second.

 

For every advantage I choose to give them, I've taken away so as not to create a MISS.

 

They have healing abilities beyond any other in the Imperium. I say think of Fullmetal Alchemist Homunculi, and for those of you who do not know that, think of Wolverine.

They are created as adults with all of the additional systems that qualify them to be space marines minus the black carapace. They cannot use power armor like normal space marines. For Ring-around-the-roses, who missed this part, they use power armor on the level of the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors, weaker suits that do not require a black carapace to wear and operate.

 

These factors also contribute to the fact that the chapter does not need apothecaries and cannot use dreadnoughts, a Chimera is either alive or dead.

 

It's debatable whether the Chimeras should have Chaplains. I imagine a very arrogant nature that can either amplified by faith or exist fine without it. Their belief would match the nature of their creation. They themselves believe that they are above normal space marines, standing closer to the Primarchs than any other chapter, and holding them all in equal regard as role models like any other chapter that doesn't know its gene-seed*cough**cough*BloodRavens/RedScorpions*cough*cough*.

 

Feedback is welcome.

[Dosjetka]

These factors also contribute to the fact that the chapter does not need apothecaries and cannot use dreadnoughts, a Chimera is either alive or dead.

 

I was about to point out that they do need Apothecaries to tend to the wounded when I remembered that they heal themselves :woot:

 

Anyway, the idea is definitely weird, that goes without saying, but I kind of like the Advantage/Flaw part of it and it kind of appeals to me in a weird way. What I mean by this is one part of me is "Wait... What?" and the other goes "Now that's a smashing idea!".

 

So I'm kind of torn and I'll have to decide if I like it or not and then give some proper criticism to make up for these empty words...

 

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to the next update and I have no idea why they would be founded. Maybe a joint project between some Radical AdMech and Inq chaps?

 

Ludovic

[TrashMan]

The problem is one that is constant with every setting.

The more "outside" things you add into it to expand hte lose, the more convoluted and weird it gets. Ultimatively it starts burting at it's seems and turns int ohirrible mush.

 

Look at D&D. They kept adding more na more monster, classes and s**** and it's turned into a giant turd.

 

I personally don't like what you're trying to do, but it's not like I can stop you.

[Wysten]

I think ultimately, ideas based on marines only tend to make sense when it follows the logic of the warhammer 40K univerce.

 

Grey Knights are the most powerful marines in the univerce, this makes sense because everyone of them is a psyker, whom we all know to be inherently superior in the 40K univerce. We also understand that while they get a lot of shiny bits, that they are almost prohibtory expensive to make for marines (very narrow stock, extreme training) which is made up for having to combat the most dangerious, omipotent threat to mankind. Hence while they are out there, it's only natural they would be an exception for being so hard to train, so loyal and needing every tool they can get to fight their archnemsis, Chaos. They are very closely linked to the inquistation hence they are clear.

 

The other chapter was a extremely out there experiment, exposing them to demons to toughen them up to combat them in future. Almost like Grey Knights, but on a budget, and they are constantly monitored as a downside.

 

 

Problem with your chapter is that they don't bare any simlarities to the standard marine, and breaks too many of their rules to be plaisable. My throughts?

 

Drop the psykerisum all together, any untrained psykers are a gateway for chaos, hence the inquistation won't tolirate them. The only reason the grey knights get away with it is because all of them have to be trained beyond marine standards before they see duty

 

Describe their geneseed as unrecongisable, the fact they can't grow a black caraprase means that, from a traditional standpoint, that something is horribly wrong with the gene seed, perhaps expand on that inherent flaw a bit. Then that would tie in with the fact why it fails often, or that they might be a troubled or chapter since the geneseed they have is prone to breaking down or defects. So while it may have started off perfect, the perfection didn't last as the seed was prone to not grow properly. The intial gene seed probably would have come from ultramarine orignally, but they tampered with it to better aid the marine, but it also made it prone to mutation.

 

Renegeration is possibly the defining point, but I would probably compare it more to a lizard then a full blown instant heal. That when they lose a limb it grows back over time, that they don't have the ability to regenerate organs (which would tie them into the blood angels codex nicely, since you can assume that the feel no pain hits, are actually wounds that may cripple a lesser marine, but the wound that takes them out is one to an organ which they can't regenerate without some serious medical aids.), or possibly even shorten the lifespan of the marine in a simlar way that being repeatively wounded in FMA resulted in the said charcters having a certain amount of regenerations before they ran out of their life source and died. This enables for them to be more effective (so they can better recover from battle, loss of limb) but enable to realistic with implimentation from one of the suggestions.

 

Good luck with your concept. It has merit, but it needs more 40K grounding and less outside influence to become a balienced chapter

[Donkey Kong]

Anyway, the idea is definitely weird, that goes without saying, but I kind of like the Advantage/Flaw part of it and it kind of appeals to me in a weird way. What I mean by this is one part of me is "Wait... What?" and the other goes "Now that's a smashing idea!".

 

So I'm kind of torn and I'll have to decide if I like it or not and then give some proper criticism to make up for these empty words...

 

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to the next update and I have no idea why they would be founded. Maybe a joint project between some Radical AdMech and Inq chaps?

 

Ludovic

 

I Appreciate the post, regardless of the fact that you've posted empty words. The reason has already been written for me: Twenty First Founding. There is no need for me to start writing conspiracies.

 

The problem is one that is constant with every setting.

The more "outside" things you add into it to expand hte lose, the more convoluted and weird it gets. Ultimatively it starts burting at it's seems and turns int ohirrible mush.

 

Look at D&D. They kept adding more na more monster, classes and s**** and it's turned into a giant turd.

 

I personally don't like what you're trying to do, but it's not like I can stop you.

 

40k has always had this problem. What I write will not make it any better or any worse. If you don't like what I'm doing, I would kindly ask that you ignore it, thanks.

 

I think ultimately, ideas based on marines only tend to make sense when it follows the logic of the warhammer 40K univerce.

 

Grey Knights are the most powerful marines in the univerce, this makes sense because everyone of them is a psyker, whom we all know to be inherently superior in the 40K univerce. We also understand that while they get a lot of shiny bits, that they are almost prohibtory expensive to make for marines (very narrow stock, extreme training) which is made up for having to combat the most dangerious, omipotent threat to mankind. Hence while they are out there, it's only natural they would be an exception for being so hard to train, so loyal and needing every tool they can get to fight their archnemsis, Chaos. They are very closely linked to the inquistation hence they are clear.

 

The other chapter was a extremely out there experiment, exposing them to demons to toughen them up to combat them in future. Almost like Grey Knights, but on a budget, and they are constantly monitored as a downside.

 

 

Problem with your chapter is that they don't bare any simlarities to the standard marine, and breaks too many of their rules to be plaisable. My throughts?

 

Drop the psykerisum all together, any untrained psykers are a gateway for chaos, hence the inquistation won't tolirate them. The only reason the grey knights get away with it is because all of them have to be trained beyond marine standards before they see duty

 

Describe their geneseed as unrecongisable, the fact they can't grow a black caraprase means that, from a traditional standpoint, that something is horribly wrong with the gene seed, perhaps expand on that inherent flaw a bit. Then that would tie in with the fact why it fails often, or that they might be a troubled or chapter since the geneseed they have is prone to breaking down or defects. So while it may have started off perfect, the perfection didn't last as the seed was prone to not grow properly. The intial gene seed probably would have come from ultramarine orignally, but they tampered with it to better aid the marine, but it also made it prone to mutation.

 

Renegeration is possibly the defining point, but I would probably compare it more to a lizard then a full blown instant heal. That when they lose a limb it grows back over time, that they don't have the ability to regenerate organs (which would tie them into the blood angels codex nicely, since you can assume that the feel no pain hits, are actually wounds that may cripple a lesser marine, but the wound that takes them out is one to an organ which they can't regenerate without some serious medical aids.), or possibly even shorten the lifespan of the marine in a simlar way that being repeatively wounded in FMA resulted in the said charcters having a certain amount of regenerations before they ran out of their life source and died. This enables for them to be more effective (so they can better recover from battle, loss of limb) but enable to realistic with implimentation from one of the suggestions.

 

Good luck with your concept. It has merit, but it needs more 40K grounding and less outside influence to become a balienced chapter

 

Their ability to heal relies on them being latent psykers. This will stay as is. In addition, I do not believe that it has ever been stated that latent psykers are dangerous in terms of opening warp rifts. See Dan Abnett's character Agun Soric. They do not have a Gene-Seed. This point comes with Chimeras being Homunculi. They are ready-made "Space Marines." The Black Carapace is simply lost in the process. Regeneration, as I imagine it (and since it's my chapter it's my imagination that matters/ :) ), is more in line with the FMA Homunculi and Wolverine ie: fairly quick. Anything can be repaired, so that's a non-issue. Similarly, I don't play, I read and write, so what codex to use is also a non-issue. For life forces and the limitations of regeneration, my idea comes down to this: In order to kill a Chimera, it must be destroyed outright. There is no reason for me to say "Chimeras can only regenerate X times until they being to decay naturally."

 

However, that does give me an idea. Consider this, Chimeras are created through organic chemistry and warpcraft. One key aspect in FMA human transmutation, and undoubtedly in this process as well, is the harnessing of a soul. A Chimera's ability to regenerate could depend entirely on the strength of the soul. This also ties into a couple other aspects of the chapter.

1. If spiritual health is necessary for Chimeras to stay strong, then Chaplains become a necessity. The Chimera's Chaplains are functionally their apothecaries.

2. The actual Chimera monsters created in failed projects could be the results of souls reacting poorly to the bodies, evil souls and lesser daemons, or simply bodies that failed to connect to the soul creating soulless bodies.

[Arkangilos]

I am not going to try and stop you or anything, but several things I do want to point out.

 

yes, the 21st founding was when they tried all of their experiments, but those (bar the already established project to recreate the primarchs) were done on Gene-seeds... Hense the quote you put from Lexicanum (with Wikipedia of 40k... so not widely accepted in debates). It specifically states that the expirements were done on flawed geneseeds to make them better.

So this does not really fit...

 

Also, ALL psykers are under the watch of someone. An entire chapter full of them would be hated by the Inquisition... Latent psykers or not, they are psykers.

 

You quoted a Dan Abnett book, and so I will do the same. In the Gaunt's Ghosts series, they had with them someone who was a latent psyker. Well, someone else figured this out, and turned him in. The inquisition took him, and BAM, his life sucked from then on.

 

Also, while I am against those critisizers who just trash something without giving any sort of help, you did post on a public forum, where the articals are MEANT to be critiqued and improved on. Thus, when something comes in and goes against what most people see, and they say something, try not to get mad at them for it :mellow:

 

Again, don't think I am trying to stop you <_<

[Wysten]

Their ability to heal relies on them being latent psykers. This will stay as is. In addition, I do not believe that it has ever been stated that latent psykers are dangerous in terms of opening warp rifts. See Dan Abnett's character Agun Soric. They do not have a Gene-Seed. This point comes with Chimeras being Homunculi. They are ready-made "Space Marines." The Black Carapace is simply lost in the process. Regeneration, as I imagine it (and since it's my chapter it's my imagination that matters/ ), is more in line with the FMA Homunculi and Wolverine ie: fairly quick. Anything can be repaired, so that's a non-issue. Similarly, I don't play, I read and write, so what codex to use is also a non-issue. For life forces and the limitations of regeneration, my idea comes down to this: In order to kill a Chimera, it must be destroyed outright. There is no reason for me to say "Chimeras can only regenerate X times until they being to decay naturally."

 

1) There is a extract from the rulebook, fluff namely, of a kid who was a latent psyker, who didn't report the headaches that he recieved lately, along with visions. One time he was displined for something or other, and in his desperation he called upon some pressence in his head which he used to kill the teacher, then the demons ripped open his body and used that as a portalway into the planet, and resulted in a battle that killed all life on that planet, and it got so bad exterminatus was called. Latent psykers who don't recieve training or fed to the emperor is a threat to humanity because a unguarded mind is a portal for the demons of Chaos. The inquistion has to constantly hunt any psykers in order to keep the potencial of them doing serious damage

 

2) You have a idea, but it doesn't match with esstablished fact. Your saying that they created an organic body and gave it life, when they are regenerating, where exactly are they getting that energy from? In human DNA, when wounded, the cells stimulate a responce to produce more cells which stems heals the wound. However, DNA is lost every time a cell regenerates or devides. DNA is very robust in the fact that our DNA is very large and contains a lot of useless clutter that we use as a buffer, yet when vital data is lost, it causes the cell to become less effective, which is why scar tissue is often discoloured, prone to being reopened and so fourth.

 

When you regenerate a entire limb, that is a lot of resource used for that, and thats assuming they have the ability to produce a human body from scratch, the imperium can't, because it's drafting in very young men in to do it because they can't build a marine from scratch, just to implant the organs nessiary to incure a gruadral transformation. It was a point in the anime you drew the idea from, that you can't create life from nothing, even if you have all of the avalible material there, and that the beings you speak of were grafted from another, vaster super being which had to lend them resources (in this case, a couple 100 human lives) in order to exist, so even they had a origin point.

 

When you have a race regenerating limbs and essencally being a Mary Sue of this univerce, a completely flawless, super human race of super humans with no forseeable side effects, it jars against everything else in the 40K univerce because if they were so successful, why isn't it being done more often? The thing about the cursed 21st founding is that things didn't go to plan and that even the successful chapters were flawed, but were good enough not to be destoryed. Which is why I suggested flaws, because otherwise, it would have not been a cursed founding, and been called the blessed 21st founding.

 

 

It's the job of this part of the forum to test the validity of the idea, the advice is simply there.

[Donkey Kong]

You quoted a Dan Abnett book, and so I will do the same. In the Gaunt's Ghosts series, they had with them someone who was a latent psyker. Well, someone else figured this out, and turned him in. The inquisition took him, and BAM, his life sucked from then on.

 

Also, while I am against those critisizers who just trash something without giving any sort of help, you did post on a public forum, where the articals are MEANT to be critiqued and improved on. Thus, when something comes in and goes against what most people see, and they say something, try not to get mad at them for it :)

 

1) There is a extract from the rulebook, fluff namely, of a kid who was a latent psyker, who didn't report the headaches that he recieved lately, along with visions. One time he was displined for something or other, and in his desperation he called upon some pressence in his head which he used to kill the teacher, then the demons ripped open his body and used that as a portalway into the planet, and resulted in a battle that killed all life on that planet, and it got so bad exterminatus was called. Latent psykers who don't recieve training or fed to the emperor is a threat to humanity because a unguarded mind is a portal for the demons of Chaos. The inquistion has to constantly hunt any psykers in order to keep the potencial of them doing serious damage

 

2) You have a idea, but it doesn't match with esstablished fact. Your saying that they created an organic body and gave it life, when they are regenerating, where exactly are they getting that energy from? In human DNA, when wounded, the cells stimulate a responce to produce more cells which stems heals the wound. However, DNA is lost every time a cell regenerates or devides. DNA is very robust in the fact that our DNA is very large and contains a lot of useless clutter that we use as a buffer, yet when vital data is lost, it causes the cell to become less effective, which is why scar tissue is often discoloured, prone to being reopened and so fourth.

 

When you regenerate a entire limb, that is a lot of resource used for that, and thats assuming they have the ability to produce a human body from scratch, the imperium can't, because it's drafting in very young men in to do it because they can't build a marine from scratch, just to implant the organs nessiary to incure a gruadral transformation. It was a point in the anime you drew the idea from, that you can't create life from nothing, even if you have all of the avalible material there, and that the beings you speak of were grafted from another, vaster super being which had to lend them resources (in this case, a couple 100 human lives) in order to exist, so even they had a origin point.

 

When you have a race regenerating limbs and essencally being a Mary Sue of this univerce, a completely flawless, super human race of super humans with no forseeable side effects, it jars against everything else in the 40K univerce because if they were so successful, why isn't it being done more often? The thing about the cursed 21st founding is that things didn't go to plan and that even the successful chapters were flawed, but were good enough not to be destoryed. Which is why I suggested flaws, because otherwise, it would have not been a cursed founding, and been called the blessed 21st founding.

 

 

It's the job of this part of the forum to test the validity of the idea, the advice is simply there.

 

I know how this works. Want proof? This is mine. And I'm still editing it.

 

Concerning Gaunt's Ghosts, we're talking about the same character, Agun Soric. Prior to becoming a sanctioned psyker, Agun Soric could use divination, and that's it.

 

There is this wonderful little rule when it comes to Warhammer 40,000 "canon," affectionately put, it doesn't exist. It's all official, but there is zero canon. The rule book, the codex, the Horus Heresy series, all of it: Zip, zero, nada.

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

 

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

 

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

 

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

 

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

 

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

-Marc Gascoigne

 

"The Background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended as an ongoing narrative that would be constantly updated. The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.

 

What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.

 

The background should be like Schrödinger's Cat - Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting."

-WD320

 

So, I choose to ignore the schoolboy and his headaches, just as I ignore Dawn of War, the Ultramarines Movie, Fifteen Hours, The Phantom Menace, and Star Fox Adventures. As far as the other business goes. The warp is Energy, and if it's not then my interpretation of the warp is Energy. Energy = Mass = Matter. Their connection to the warp is a conduit to create matter. This is how my interpretation of regeneration works. Also, the creation process doesn't work well. Every failed homunculus results in a monster, a literal Chimera. There are so many of these monsters that they are used as guard dogs, forward shock troops, and live training instruments.

 

If training is the concern, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica is involved in their creation. The Adeptus Astra Telepathica is responsible for the collection of all psykers via Black Ships and the training of all sanctioned psykers. Finally, the Inquisition: The Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus is a Chapter of Psykers. The second attempt at creating a Chapter like them in the Thirteenth Founding concerned possessing space marines with lesser daemons and giving them an exorcism. The Twenty First Founding project which attempts to create homunculi space marines should attract a lot of attention from the Inquisition and should have Inquisitors pushing to get it through. So, the Inquisition approves of the Chimeras because they were involved in getting them sanctioned and fighting.

 

Please, continue giving me advice. I'd love suggestions, too.

[Arkangilos]

So, how are they viewed in 40k?

 

And I still want to be clear, I was not saying don't do it, I would like to see how it turns out

[Darkchild130]

I'm not trying to stop your idea, but why call them Space Marines when they bear practically no resemblance to Space Marines?

 

Why not go in another direction with them?

 

I think making them an Inquisition experiment to create a force to match the might of the Space Marine chapters (who by their autonomous nature are a very real threat in the eyes of many inquisitors) would suit your creatures better. It's been done before, with the Afriel Strain, who were cloned from Imperial heroes in order to make a cheap, disposable force of badass soldiers.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say they tried again.

 

"They're Space Marines, except for the hundreds of factors that make them not Space Marines."

Currently it feels forced.

 

My 2 pence.

 

Darkchild

[Wysten]

I know how this works. Want proof? This is mine. And I'm still editing it.

 

Concerning Gaunt's Ghosts, we're talking about the same character, Agun Soric. Prior to becoming a sanctioned psyker, Agun Soric could use divination, and that's it.

 

There is this wonderful little rule when it comes to Warhammer 40,000 "canon," affectionately put, it doesn't exist. It's all official, but there is zero canon. The rule book, the codex, the Horus Heresy series, all of it: Zip, zero, nada.

 

Fine. I am just letting you know the flaws in it, which you can then act on. Don't like it? Well, we want it to be improved so it's more then FMA imports.

 

Just as currently stands, your importing a bunch of anime charcter and concepts that don't fit, and say "Well durr, these are my better then uber uber marines, I am not changing it." when, it could fully well have potencial but as it stands, it makes no sense in context to what we know in this univerce. There is little canon, but there is guidelines, a grounding for every univerce so that it makes sense within context.

 

What the guy said about them being built by inquistation is probably the best idea I've heard, as cloning imperial heros and trying to improve them further, that would be a project worthy of the history books, but heretical enough to be a project kept under watch.

[TrashMan]

Fine. I am just letting you know the flaws in it, which you can then act on. Don't like it? Well, we want it to be improved so it's more then FMA imports.

 

Just as currently stands, your importing a bunch of anime charcter and concepts that don't fit, and say "Well durr, these are my better then uber uber marines, I am not changing it." when, it could fully well have potencial but as it stands, it makes no sense in context to what we know in this univerce. There is little canon, but there is guidelines, a grounding for every univerce so that it makes sense within context.

 

What the guy said about them being built by inquistation is probably the best idea I've heard, as cloning imperial heros and trying to improve them further, that would be a project worthy of the history books, but heretical enough to be a project kept under watch.

 

 

What he said....

[Donkey Kong]

I'm not trying to stop your idea, but why call them Space Marines when they bear practically no resemblance to Space Marines?

 

Why not go in another direction with them?

 

I think making them an Inquisition experiment to create a force to match the might of the Space Marine chapters (who by their autonomous nature are a very real threat in the eyes of many inquisitors) would suit your creatures better. It's been done before, with the Afriel Strain, who were cloned from Imperial heroes in order to make a cheap, disposable force of badass soldiers.

It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say they tried again.

 

"They're Space Marines, except for the hundreds of factors that make them not Space Marines."

Currently it feels forced.

 

You mean the few things that are different that all boil down to the nature of their creation?

Homunculi

Latent psykers

Regeneration

No gene-seed, but natural space marine physiology

No black carapace and inferior power armor

 

Not to mention the fact that "an Inquisitor did it" is the most boring and most unlikely excuse right next to blaming the Warp and the C'tan? Your point is moot.

 

Fine. I am just letting you know the flaws in it, which you can then act on. Don't like it? Well, we want it to be improved so it's more then FMA imports.

 

Just as currently stands, your importing a bunch of anime charcter and concepts that don't fit, and say "Well durr, these are my better then uber uber marines, I am not changing it." when, it could fully well have potencial but as it stands, it makes no sense in context to what we know in this univerce. There is little canon, but there is guidelines, a grounding for every univerce so that it makes sense within context.

 

What the guy said about them being built by inquistation is probably the best idea I've heard, as cloning imperial heros and trying to improve them further, that would be a project worthy of the history books, but heretical enough to be a project kept under watch.

 

So, you're trying to change it from something it's not? Chimera and Homunculi are not limited to Fullmetal Alchemist. They are actual biological and achemic concepts. Most religions have a homunculus: Adam, created "from dust." If we're rolling with scientific concepts too, people have already bred Chimeras. After all, by definition a Chimera is something created from the genes of two or more organisms. When I start saying that the Chimeras have 7 companies named Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Wrath, Greed, and Sloth, and the only Chimera capable of actively using its psychic powers is named Elric, then you can criticizing me for "importing a bunch of anime character and concepts."

 

Anything marked orange is a maybe, although I welcome commentary on any point.

 

Origins

-Twenty First Founding

-Attempt at recreating the Primarchs

-Involvement of Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis and Adeptus Astra Telepathica

-Initial results yield monsters "Chimeras"

-Inquisitor(s) push scientists to continue working on the project

-Successful homunculi created

-Warpcraft and organic chemistry, binding of soul and created matter in natural dimension

-Homunculi anatomy/ physiology: Functional space marine implants minus black carapace naturally present, latent psykers incapable of further concentrating powers, connection to the warp allows for near instantaneous regeneration

-Homunculi are capable of regeneration so long as the mind and soul have the will to continue to exist.

Homeworld

-Laboratory setting

-Space station, solitary world, suggestions?

Chapter Organization

-Codex

-Under-strength

-No Apothecaries

-No Librarians

-Record keeping done by Imperial Scientists working on the Chimera Project

Combat Doctrine

-Beats me, suggestions?

Chapter Cult

-Superiority complex, believe that they are superior to other space marines

-Connection with all Primarchs

-Chaplains lecture on the strength of mind and soul, this stays if the ability to regenerate depends on it

 

 

What he said....

 

If you don't like what I'm doing, I would kindly ask that you ignore it, thanks.

[Wysten]

I will just help with the rest of the organisation then.

 

I imagine a chapter like this would be based either on a fleet chapter or a space station. Where they would then aquire their raw resources from planets or through the inquistation.

 

If they are effectively immortal, I don't see why they would adopt codex tactics, due to their near invalublity and self belief, I imagine they would tutor their tactics to meet everything head on, since these inferiour creatures that they constantly pit themselves against are incapable of killing them. Which would influence their combat methods by taking everything near headon, it really reminds me of how the Black Templars fight, largely on foot in huge squads, shrugging off hits as they move forwards.

 

On that note, while they may not be able to produce psykers, I imagine the chaplin would be huge to constantly monitor their well being, since most of these guys have psyker hoods, it's vital that they are checked against corruption, as their psykerisum is a beacon in the warp for Chaos to influtrate their souls, which in combination with their regenative abilitys being related to the purity/strength of their soul would make them extremely vital to ensuring the chapter continues to opperate.

 

Perhaps the Chap's need to be drawn from other chapters, as they are non-psykers. Which could make for a interesting death watch cycle of them being inducted, assisting the chapter for a certain period, before being mind wiped and returned back to the chapter, or remaining attached permently to keep them secerative. Being a complete outsider allowing him to observe them in a unbiest viewpoint.

[Heru]

Ok first up, I don't like the name simply because it shares the name of the Imperial Guard's primary transport.

 

Second some questions:

 

1. How did people who messed up the rest of the 21st Foundlings so bad, and can't tie their shoe laces without some ritual and prayers (which were passed down via Chinese whispers), come anywhere close to replicating the Emperor's achievements by making a "Chapter" of stable* "mini-Primarches"?

 

* = Stable as in the success stories not the monsters.

 

2. The biggest thing about the 21st Founding is that everyone who came out of it, came out with some defect or issue, where is yours beyond "they don't use Astartes grade Power Armour"?

 

3. How did they survive M.37 "when the more wayward and corrupt members of the 21st Founding and other dissident forces were being exterminated in a series of bloody wars and purges"?

 

 

Third: The Inquisition is a body of individuals, not a unified organization. You may have Inquisitors who back this project (like the Thorians), but you are also going to have allot of puritans gunning for your guys.

 

Fourth: I'm also a FMA fan, but it reads like you are trying too hard to stick the FMA Homunculi as they are into Wh40k universe with little adaption, and allot of Wh40k smashing.

 

Fifth: As a friend asking what is with the "I'm going to do what I want, and I don't care what anyone says (but I'll still cuss you out)" attitude dude, that is something I'd expect from a teenage B+C newbie not you? :P

[Donkey Kong]

I will just help with the rest of the organisation then.

 

I imagine a chapter like this would be based either on a fleet chapter or a space station. Where they would then aquire their raw resources from planets or through the inquistation.

 

If they are effectively immortal, I don't see why they would adopt codex tactics, due to their near invalublity and self belief, I imagine they would tutor their tactics to meet everything head on, since these inferiour creatures that they constantly pit themselves against are incapable of killing them. Which would influence their combat methods by taking everything near headon, it really reminds me of how the Black Templars fight, largely on foot in huge squads, shrugging off hits as they move forwards.

 

On that note, while they may not be able to produce psykers, I imagine the chaplin would be huge to constantly monitor their well being, since most of these guys have psyker hoods, it's vital that they are checked against corruption, as their psykerisum is a beacon in the warp for Chaos to influtrate their souls, which in combination with their regenative abilitys being related to the purity/strength of their soul would make them extremely vital to ensuring the chapter continues to opperate.

 

Perhaps the Chap's need to be drawn from other chapters, as they are non-psykers. Which could make for a interesting death watch cycle of them being inducted, assisting the chapter for a certain period, before being mind wiped and returned back to the chapter, or remaining attached permently to keep them secerative. Being a complete outsider allowing him to observe them in a unbiest viewpoint.

 

Based on the size of Imperial ships as is, I suppose a fleet would work best.

The Black Templar idea works to some extent, except I don't see the Chimeras having the numbers to do the same. The actual chimeras could serve as a forward unit, similar to the Space Wolves and their hounds. Taking things head on sound about right, though.

White the Chaplains preach, I believe that the monitoring would be done more by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. After all, if the Chaplains are the ones giving encouragement, why would you want them to be marines that are incapable of going through the same punishment as the rest of the chapter. It would be especially discouraging if the one telling you "you can make it through anything if you believe in yourself" is one of the only marines to fall and not get back up. Not to mention, they already have a superiority complex, why would they listen to another chaplain?

 

Ok first up, I don't like the name simply because it shares the name of the Imperial Guard's primary transport.

 

Second some questions:

 

1. How did people who messed up the rest of the 21st Foundlings so bad, and can't tie their shoe laces without some ritual and prayers (which were passed down via Chinese whispers), come anywhere close to replicating the Emperor's achievements by making a "Chapter" of stable* "mini-Primarches"?

 

* = Stable as in the success stories not the monsters.

 

2. The biggest thing about the 21st Founding is that everyone who came out of it, came out with some defect or issue, where is yours beyond "they don't use Astartes grade Power Armour"?

 

3. How did they survive M.37 "when the more wayward and corrupt members of the 21st Founding and other dissident forces were being exterminated in a series of bloody wars and purges"?

 

 

Third: The Inquisition is a body of individuals, not a unified organization. You may have Inquisitors who back this project (like the Thorians), but you are also going to have allot of puritans gunning for your guys.

 

Fourth: I'm also a FMA fan, but it reads like you are trying too hard to stick the FMA Homunculi as they are into Wh40k universe with little adaption, and allot of Wh40k smashing.

 

Fifth: As a friend asking what is with the "I'm going to do what I want, and I don't care what anyone says (but I'll still cuss you out)" attitude dude, that is something I'd expect from a teenage B+C newbie not you? :huh:

 

Nice to hear from you Heru. The name problem is unavoidable, ie: Leviathan (the Mobile Command Center and the Hive Fleet)

For your points:

1&2: Between the Lamenters curing the Red Thirst and Black Rage and the Fire Hawks supposedly continuing to exist as The Legion of the Damned, I'd say that the 21st had some successes. In ability, I imagine these guys to be equals to Space Marines, not Primarchs. The only thing that makes them better is their ability to heal. Tying in with their ability to heal, they are souls from the warp rebound to artificial flesh. Their ability to heal is based entirely on their will to survive. I could imagine it very well being that in order for them to even exist and maintain themselves they must maintain that strength of will or else degrade into nothingness or a monster. Would that be an appropriate defect?

 

3 (both of them :P ): I could see the Inquisitors advocating the project protecting their investment. I don't have the Dark Heresy books, could you give me a run down of the Inquisitorial parties and their beliefs? I'd like to know who would be vouching for them and who would be out to expose and/ or destroy them.

 

4: To a degree, yes. However, I'm avoiding powers beyond durability. I'm trying to make that durability feasible by connecting them to the warp. The biggest apparent example of Wh40k smashing I've done comes from a different interpretation of how dangerous a latent psyker can be.

 

5: Honestly, my reasoning boils down to the fact that up until this point (ie Wysten's post above yours and your own) the "comments" by and large have mirrored this:

 

I can't see this ending in a good way....

 

I can appreciate criticism. I cannot appreciate blatant nay saying.

[Wysten]

Based on the size of Imperial ships as is, I suppose a fleet would work best.

The Black Templar idea works to some extent, except I don't see the Chimeras having the numbers to do the same. The actual chimeras could serve as a forward unit, similar to the Space Wolves and their hounds. Taking things head on sound about right, though.

White the Chaplains preach, I believe that the monitoring would be done more by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. After all, if the Chaplains are the ones giving encouragement, why would you want them to be marines that are incapable of going through the same punishment as the rest of the chapter. It would be especially discouraging if the one telling you "you can make it through anything if you believe in yourself" is one of the only marines to fall and not get back up. Not to mention, they already have a superiority complex, why would they listen to another chaplain?

 

Aye, imperial ships are pretty massive, but it also makes them really mobile. Which means they can't be questioned.

 

Yeah, as said, blood angels would probably be the best match as they are highly mobile, not as numberious as some marines, they focus on getting into close combat really quickly and, with the Sanguary Priests granting both feel no pain (by reminding themselves of their faith) and Chaps to make them more furious. They may forgo transports all together to get grips with foe with jumppacks

 

As for claps, their main purpose, along with maintaining the well being of the marine, is to also be weary of corruption. Considering that they have superiouty issues, they may not recongise that a member of their elite ranks could be corrupted, easpically since they can't judge themselves as they are drawn from the warp. Them looking up to him is a good question, though chaps in general have immense willpower, that they have fought at the forfront of many battles and several examples have outlasted or raised chapter masters and continued to serve under them. They are quite exceptional warriors of endurance, even by marine standards.

 

 

The only thing with the chapters you mentioned is that they are extremely flawed. Laminators cured it, but suffer from terrible luck that has almost wiped them out, and apprently is wearing off, and the fire hawks were exceptionally unlucky by being largely destoryed in their first day.