Index Astartes: Chimeras

[Donkey Kong]

Sorry my bad, I don't speak clearly.

I meant that if the regeneration is instantaneous, then maybe it should shorten their lifespan in return.

 

I understood you well enough Augustine. The problem I have is with the other implications it has. Let's say that regenerating shortens the life span. I don't know what a Marine's life span is. I don't want to say that Chimeras don't live to be 300, and I can't justify that to myself because I don't quite understand what that would mean. Does that mean that Chimeras are fine until they suddenly drop dead? Do they decay in some way? If they're decaying aren't they still regenerating? Etc. I had the same problem with my idea being that they needed to actively hold themselves to reality. But, what does that mean for when they're born? Are they born instinctively holding on? How do they keep holding on? What would force them to let go.

 

Right now, they regenerate instantaneously, but regeneration is exhausting, and they can't regenerate when they don't have energy. I could expand on this, saying that outside of battle their training is light or heavy but scattered, with regular breaks. I could also say that they're constantly regenerating themselves, as cells lose junk information when they divide, and tire regardless of how much or how little training they have. Finally, when they cannot regenerate, they die. They don't have the healing factors present in space marines. Their healing abilities aren't necessarily superior, just different.

 

So, a few of my own questions still stand for those interested in influencing me:

 

Heraldry:

Orange (Just 'Cause) or Off-White (unpainted ceramite)?

Double Lion or Ram and Lion?

 

Finally, and probably most importantly, how are they utilized by the Inquisition? Deathwatch is out of the question, the secret isn't meant to get out. Private retinues leaves them too divided. Suggestions?

[Arkangilos]

Sorry my bad, I don't speak clearly.

I meant that if the regeneration is instantaneous, then maybe it should shorten their lifespan in return.

 

I understood you well enough Augustine. The problem I have is with the other implications it has. Let's say that regenerating shortens the life span. I don't know what a Marine's life span is. I don't want to say that Chimeras don't live to be 300, and I can't justify that to myself because I don't quite understand what that would mean. Does that mean that Chimeras are fine until they suddenly drop dead? Do they decay in some way? If they're decaying aren't they still regenerating? Etc. I had the same problem with my idea being that they needed to actively hold themselves to reality. But, what does that mean for when they're born? Are they born instinctively holding on? How do they keep holding on? What would force them to let go.

 

Right now, they regenerate instantaneously, but regeneration is exhausting, and they can't regenerate when they don't have energy. I could expand on this, saying that outside of battle their training is light or heavy but scattered, with regular breaks. I could also say that they're constantly regenerating themselves, as cells lose junk information when they divide, and tire regardless of how much or how little training they have. Finally, when they cannot regenerate, they die. They don't have the healing factors present in space marines. Their healing abilities aren't necessarily superior, just different.

 

So, a few of my own questions still stand for those interested in influencing me:

 

Heraldry:

Orange (Just 'Cause) or Off-White (unpainted ceramite)?

Double Lion or Ram and Lion?

 

Finally, and probably most importantly, how are they utilized by the Inquisition? Deathwatch is out of the question, the secret isn't meant to get out. Private retinues leaves them too divided. Suggestions?

 

The Inquisitor band that supported the project could request them on any mission, and they will automatically respond.

 

Or, whenever an inquisitor needs a fortress cracked, they use them. That way their forces are usually together, and follow the supporting Inquisitors into the toughest warzones.

[Brother Augustine]

:P

That would work really well actually. I like it! :D

Also, I agree with Telanicus on the topic of the Inquisitorial involvement. That way they are available at the need of the Inquisitors, but they are able to keep their heads down and draw less attention to themselves otherwise. You might also have it be that they are only called on as a last resort, when all other options have been exhausted, or when they would be a waste of time.

 

Another Idea is that you might have the Inquisitor band be a sort of "secret council" that discreetly directs the Chapter behind the scenes along with the the Chapter Commanders, if indeed they have any. That way the Inquisitors can provide the Chapter with the resources it needs as well as have a say in their deployment. And if they are discreet enough about it, no one can really make legal objections about private armies of Astartes. I mean it wouldn't be the first time an Imperial organization supported a Space Marine Chapter in order to have them further some agenda *coughcough*minotaurs*coughcough*

 

As for the color, I vote off-white, perhaps with some Orange thrown in. I personally like the Lion-Ram Combo better. Fits their nature more IMHO

[Ace Debonair]

So, a few of my own questions still stand for those interested in influencing me:

 

Heraldry:

Orange (Just 'Cause) or Off-White (unpainted ceramite)?

Double Lion or Ram and Lion?

 

Finally, and probably most importantly, how are they utilized by the Inquisition? Deathwatch is out of the question, the secret isn't meant to get out. Private retinues leaves them too divided. Suggestions?

 

Heraldry Dept Hat is on...? Check. ;)

Right. Let's see if either of these swing your opinion one way or the other.

If not, feel free to point me in the right direction.

EDIT:

Don't need these right now. New pics coming up in a couple of posts.

 

 

I personally like the orange 'n' black combo for these guys, although I admit it might need more fine tuning.

I duno why I made the eagle blue, for example. ;)

 

As for the badge, definitely Ram and Lion.

More in keeping with the classical Chimera, to my mind, as well as a subtle reminder of the differences between them and normal marine chapters.

[Brother Augustine]

Ooooh Those look cool! :D

[Pulse]

Orange and black does look pretty sweet the only thing that lets it down is the blueish winged skull on the breast plate. :lol:

 

I prefer the one on the right personally though!

[Ace Debonair]

Orange and black does look pretty sweet the only thing that lets it down is the blueish winged skull on the breast plate. ;)

Fair enough. What colour would you make it?

 

I'm genuinely unsure why I went with blue - I think it's a hold-over from the colourscheme before that which I forgot to change. :)

 

EDIT:

Oh wait, if the second one had dark brown trim on the shoulder pads and kneecaps, it'd be the colour scheme for my Steel Dragons. :)

But my lads could use an update anyway, so use that colourscheme if it suits you. ;)

[Donkey Kong]

Thanks Ace. I want the Chapter symbol to be black, so black shoulders is a no go. With that in mind, I like the schemes to have a reason. Caphon believed his Chapter was his new "hope," so to speak, hence the Astral Reavers are green. For those not big on symbolism, green is usually a symbol of hope, you know, when it isn't a symbol of wealth, greed, and pestilence.

 

The off-white works as a symbol because it fits the sort of perceptive-but-somewhat-naive mentality that they've got. "It's armor. It works. Why paint it?" It's the sort of not quite caring/ not quite getting it feel that works perfectly for them. Orange symbolizes energy and balance, which "sort of" fits. You know, if I squint. Ultimately, regardless of color, I imagine them being very plain. No real trophies or gold, just the armor and Inquisitorial Rosettes.

 

The other scheme I was imagining was a blue-orange quartered scheme.

 

B O

O B

 

I'm not sure if it would work, or if there would be some way to make it fit into character. Perhaps the Inquisitors could use it to make them appear as a more noble chapter, and allow them into more open operations, as I'm not exactly feeling thhe suggestions made by Telanicus or Augustine. Even then, why make them stand out when you want to keep a secret? Unless, there's some deterrent created by looking obnoxious.

 

As for the symbol, the Ram-Lion it is.

 

So, how would they serve the Inquisition, and how should the marines themselves look, whether they be handsome, ugly, or remarkably plain? Should they look similar to one another, products of the same creation methods, or drastically different, as the chimera beasts do as a result of the Warp.

 

These guys really are shaping up to be an odd bunch, huh ^_^ .

[Arkangilos]

Thanks Ace. I want the Chapter symbol to be black, so black shoulders is a no go. With that in mind, I like the schemes to have a reason. Caphon believed his Chapter was his new "hope," so to speak, hence the Astral Reavers are green. For those not big on symbolism, green is usually a symbol of hope, you know, when it isn't a symbol of wealth, greed, and pestilence.

 

The off-white works as a symbol because it fits the sort of perceptive-but-somewhat-naive mentality that they've got. "It's armor. It works. Why paint it?" It's the sort of not quite caring/ not quite getting it feel that works perfectly for them. Orange symbolizes energy and balance, which "sort of" fits. You know, if I squint. Ultimately, regardless of color, I imagine them being very plain. No real trophies or gold, just the armor and Inquisitorial Rosettes.

 

The other scheme I was imagining was a blue-orange quartered scheme.

 

B O

O B

 

I'm not sure if it would work, or if there would be some way to make it fit into character. Perhaps the Inquisitors could use it to make them appear as a more noble chapter, and allow them into more open operations, as I'm not exactly feeling thhe suggestions made by Telanicus or Augustine. Even then, why make them stand out when you want to keep a secret? Unless, there's some deterrent created by looking obnoxious.

 

As for the symbol, the Ram-Lion it is.

 

So, how would they serve the Inquisition, and how should the marines themselves look, whether they be handsome, ugly, or remarkably plain? Should they look similar to one another, products of the same creation methods, or drastically different, as the chimera beasts do as a result of the Warp.

 

These guys really are shaping up to be an odd bunch, huh :tu: .

 

Well the space marines and Imperium wouldn't really know about the missions that the Inquisitors are embarking on, and those forces that do would probably never see a space marine again, so they wouldn't think twice (and if they did, who cares, these missions are the ones where they die...)

 

They aren't as secret as GK, but far more secret than the standard SM.

[Ace Debonair]

The off-white works as a symbol because it fits the sort of perceptive-but-somewhat-naive mentality that they've got. "It's armor. It works. Why paint it?" It's the sort of not quite caring/ not quite getting it feel that works perfectly for them. Orange symbolizes energy and balance, which "sort of" fits. You know, if I squint. Ultimately, regardless of color, I imagine them being very plain. No real trophies or gold, just the armor and Inquisitorial Rosettes.

Equally, you could have them understand that they paint the armour because that's what 'normal' Astartes do, and that it's camoflauge of a sorts.

 

The other scheme I was imagining was a blue-orange quartered scheme.

 

...

 

I'm not sure if it would work, or if there would be some way to make it fit into character. Perhaps the Inquisitors could use it to make them appear as a more noble chapter, and allow them into more open operations, as I'm not exactly feeling thhe suggestions made by Telanicus or Augustine. Even then, why make them stand out when you want to keep a secret? Unless, there's some deterrent created by looking obnoxious.

Inquisitor Jimmy is proud of his creations and wants them to look the part, maybe? :lol:

Simple human motive, but it could work here.

 

So, how would they serve the Inquisition, and how should the marines themselves look, whether they be handsome, ugly, or remarkably plain? Should they look similar to one another, products of the same creation methods, or drastically different, as the chimera beasts do as a result of the Warp.

 

These guys really are shaping up to be an odd bunch, huh <_< .

I'd have them look similar, but not exactly the same.

The point of the experiment is surely to get the same results each time, or close enough. Due to it being a bit unpredictable, a few differences are OK.

 

Scheme time!

 

EDIT EDIT:

Scheme time has passed. I've removed the schemes.

Please leave the Liber as you would wish to find it, and all that.

 

 

EDIT:

Typos. (sigh) Again.

[Brother Augustine]

*Pats Ace on the shoulder* I feel your pain brother.

 

I like the idea of them not painting it in the "Why should we? We'll just have to repaint it after the battle." mindset. As for the Inqusition, I really don't know. The ideas I offered were the only ones I could think of at the time, and nothing new has come up since. But I'll post suggestions if I think of any.

 

Speaking of, had a crazy idea. Just throwing it out there, so feel free to ignore it. You said the regeneration drains alot of energy off of them, right? Well, being organic, living beings who are constantly burning energy their bodies would logically be desperately trying to replace that energy in the simplest way possible. By eating. So these guys would be constantly hungry or, in the middle of a battle, utterly famished. To the point where their bodies think they are starving and they are driven by instinct to devour the closest edible items. Namely, the soldiers forming the enemy line that they just hit like the fist of an Angry/Hungry God.

[Donkey Kong]

Thanks Ace. I think I'll stick with off white with orange pauldrons.

 

Speaking of, had a crazy idea. Just throwing it out there, so feel free to ignore it. You said the regeneration drains alot of energy off of them, right? Well, being organic, living beings who are constantly burning energy their bodies would logically be desperately trying to replace that energy in the simplest way possible. By eating. So these guys would be constantly hungry or, in the middle of a battle, utterly famished. To the point where their bodies think they are starving and they are driven by instinct to devour the closest edible items. Namely, the soldiers forming the enemy line that they just hit like the fist of an Angry/Hungry God.

 

I'm using this.

 

As for their armor, I don't think it will or should look much like Space Marine Power Armor. I imagine it to be more like Sister of Battle Armor crossed with Grey Knight Aegis Armor. To accommodate Augustine's latest suggestion, I imagine them using a helmet more akin to a Sallet. I'm debating whether or not they need a psychic hood. Heraldry wise, beyond their own Ram-Lion, they should make use of the Inquisitorial Rosette, and I'm debating whether they should use the horned skull that marks librarians.

 

Now I still need to decide how they're used.

[Ace Debonair]

Thanks Ace. I think I'll stick with off white with orange pauldrons.

Made a new, better off-white colour.

I don't know which one you'd prefer, but you're welcome to either of them.

If you want anything changing (more orange, less orange, different off-white, different eye lenses) then give me a shout and I'll see what I can do.

Is that a Sallet with a visor that can be raised or lowered as needed, or one without the visor at all?

Just curious.

[Donkey Kong]

Is that a Sallet with a visor that can be raised or lowered as needed, or one without the visor at all?

Just curious.

 

Similar to the late fifteenth century one in the top right of my link. It's a full helmet, albeit without a gorget so the mouth is basically free. I went digging for an image, so something like this, without the ability to raise the visor, and perhaps with typical space marine eyes instead of the slit, I'm still undecided on that last one.

[Gulag]

Having forced my way through all the posts to this point, I've got the following comments and points...I said to myself I wasn't going to do there, but here goes anyway:

 

1. I'm a huge FMA fan, it is the one anime I watch. So I can understand wanting to do an homage or shout-out.

 

2. Canon elements of 40k that have some interesting parallels with FMA - automail to bionics, GK sigils and wards in the blood of the pious and the Rubric of Ahriman and the Rubric Marines which have their souls bound to their armor which can be seen in parallel to Alphonse's blood seal. Daemons and other warp beings possess inanimate objects and manipulate them, like Homunculi or the creepy-grey-war-dolls are made out of inanimate material.

 

3 That said, a direct FMA to 40k conversion is a little unwieldy to me. Its jarring. Like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

 

4. Tech-PRIESTS, not scientists - big difference. The former think think technology is some sort of magic and religion and are utterly averse to original research and development. The latter operate on a system of actual science, method, and logic. Not the same.

 

5. The 21st Founding is Cursed for a reason - nothing successful came out of it, at best a chapter from the 21st should break even.

 

6. This is 40k. Grim Dark. Nothing ever works out or succeeds ever, its supposed to be a zero-sum game.

 

7. No gene-seed, no marines. Okay, thats passable if they're simply trying to pass as marines, but they don't use Astartes power armor. Doesn't look like a marine, isn't made like one, doesn't function like one. Isn't a marine, can't pass for one, can't be mistaken for one - don't call it a space marine.

 

8. That said, there's some interesting potential here, but not as a direct chimera/homunculi copy.

[Donkey Kong]

Having forced my way through all the posts to this point, I've got the following comments and points...I said to myself I wasn't going to do there, but here goes anyway:

 

1. I'm a huge FMA fan, it is the one anime I watch. So I can understand wanting to do an homage or shout-out.

 

2. Canon elements of 40k that have some interesting parallels with FMA - automail to bionics, GK sigils and wards in the blood of the pious and the Rubric of Ahriman and the Rubric Marines which have their souls bound to their armor which can be seen in parallel to Alphonse's blood seal. Daemons and other warp beings possess inanimate objects and manipulate them, like Homunculi or the creepy-grey-war-dolls are made out of inanimate material.

 

3 That said, a direct FMA to 40k conversion is a little unwieldy to me. Its jarring. Like fitting a square peg in a round hole.

 

4. Tech-PRIESTS, not scientists - big difference. The former think think technology is some sort of magic and religion and are utterly averse to original research and development. The latter operate on a system of actual science, method, and logic. Not the same.

 

5. The 21st Founding is Cursed for a reason - nothing successful came out of it, at best a chapter from the 21st should break even.

 

6. This is 40k. Grim Dark. Nothing ever works out or succeeds ever, its supposed to be a zero-sum game.

 

7. No gene-seed, no marines. Okay, thats passable if they're simply trying to pass as marines, but they don't use Astartes power armor. Doesn't look like a marine, isn't made like one, doesn't function like one. Isn't a marine, can't pass for one, can't be mistaken for one - don't call it a space marine.

 

8. That said, there's some interesting potential here, but not as a direct chimera/homunculi copy.

 

Three pages in, you'd have thought I'd be beyond naysayers. Still, you, like many others, don't have a very firm grasp on the concept of 40k Canon. I want it to exist. You may think it exists. It doesn't exist. Everything is official. Nothing is canon. Our interpretations of Tech-Priests differ. Our interpretations of the Cursed Founding differ. Our interpretations of 40k differ. And, here's the best part, neither of us are right.

 

So,

 

2. Automail: Prosthetic limbs are prosthetic limbs are prosthetic limbs, regardless of whether it's called a prosthetic, automail, or bionic. I hate the current background for the Grey Knights, and, with that in mind, I choose to ignore it. Rubric marines are written as dependent on psykers to lead them, hardly a parallel to a trapped soul. Finally, it doesn't even seem like you understand the concept of a homunculus.

 

4, 5, 6. I don't like any interpretation of the 40k universe that can be summarized as Grim Dark. Grim Dark ultimately translates into breaking suspension of disbelief. But this is a difference of interpretation. You say that the 21st Founding was a resounding failure. I say that the founding produced the Minotaurs, an executioner chapter, and the Fire Hawks, a chapter that allegedly became the Legion of the Damned. In the lattermost case, I have a different theory that concerns the Damned Legionnaires being lesser daemons, but that's a moot point because it's all interpretation.

 

By the way, Mendel was a friar.

 

7. It's hard to walk like a duck, talk like a duck, quack like a duck, and be a goose. Many chapters are divergent, or have flaws of their own. they are no less space marines, and these are no less a space marine because you failed to understand the significance of not possessing a typical gene-seed.

 

8. Déjà vu, man:

 

The problem is one that is constant with every setting.

The more "outside" things you add into it to expand hte lose, the more convoluted and weird it gets. Ultimatively it starts burting at it's seems and turns int ohirrible mush.

 

Look at D&D. They kept adding more na more monster, classes and s**** and it's turned into a giant turd.

 

I personally don't like what you're trying to do, but it's not like I can stop you.

 

40k has always had this problem. What I write will not make it any better or any worse. If you don't like what I'm doing, I would kindly ask that you ignore it, thanks.

[Gulag]

Three pages in, you'd have thought I'd be beyond naysayers. Still, you, like many others, don't have a very firm grasp on the concept of 40k Canon. I want it to exist. You may think it exists. It doesn't exist. Everything is official. Nothing is canon. Our interpretations of Tech-Priests differ. Our interpretations of the Cursed Founding differ. Our interpretations of 40k differ. And, here's the best part, neither of us are right.

 

Funny, I thought GW was the ultimate arbiter on canon, what with all those codices, rulebooks, and tournament requirements...all a smoke screen, eh?

 

2. Automail: Prosthetic limbs are prosthetic limbs are prosthetic limbs, regardless of whether it's called a prosthetic, automail, or bionic.

 

You see my point then. Thank you for agreeing with me.

 

I hate the current background for the Grey Knights, and, with that in mind, I choose to ignore it.

 

Congratulations, you're special. :rolleyes: The point is, PRECEDENT. If you can point to something similar in established, published works, it makes you look like less of tool.

 

Rubric marines are written as dependent on psykers to lead them, hardly a parallel to a trapped soul.

 

See above.

 

Finally, it doesn't even seem like you understand the concept of a homunculus.

 

The historical example, or the FMA version? I understand both quite well, thank you. The first refers to any representation of a human, especially in MINATURE. The latter is an artificially created human named after one of the seven deadly sins. Their origins and natures differ between the Manga & 2009 Anime and the 2003 Anime. I own all three.

 

4, 5, 6. I don't like any interpretation of the 40k universe that can be summarized as Grim Dark. Grim Dark ultimately translates into breaking suspension of disbelief. But this is a difference of interpretation. You say that the 21st Founding was a resounding failure. I say that the founding produced the Minotaurs, an executioner chapter, and the Fire Hawks, a chapter that allegedly became the Legion of the Damned. In the lattermost case, I have a different theory that concerns the Damned Legionnaires being lesser daemons, but that's a moot point because it's all interpretation.

 

Then you miss the point of 40k, don't you? Its not my fault your reading comprehension and interpretive skills are substandard or inferior.

 

By the way, Mendel was a friar.

 

By the way, that has nothing to do with this conversation, is a broken link, and is something everyone learns in 7th grade. Let me know when you graduate high school and take some real science or history classes.

 

7. It's hard to walk like a duck, talk like a duck, quack like a duck, and be a goose. Many chapters are divergent, or have flaws of their own. they are no less space marines, and these are no less a space marine because you failed to understand the significance of not possessing a typical gene-seed.

 

Show me some precedent or an example whereupon any other Space Marine anywhere in the literature doesn't have any gene-seed at all. I dare you. Dazzle me with your brilliance.

 

8. Déjà vu, man:

 

The problem is one that is constant with every setting.

The more "outside" things you add into it to expand hte lose, the more convoluted and weird it gets. Ultimatively it starts burting at it's seems and turns int ohirrible mush.

 

Look at D&D. They kept adding more na more monster, classes and s**** and it's turned into a giant turd.

 

I personally don't like what you're trying to do, but it's not like I can stop you.

 

40k has always had this problem. What I write will not make it any better or any worse. If you don't like what I'm doing, I would kindly ask that you ignore it, thanks.

 

 

No, I think I'm ok providing you with criticism.

 

 

Hope you don't have any trouble reading through the mangled quote tags.

[Gulag]

Want to cut the killer critques? Don't call them Space Marines. Call them a variant of Custodes - THEY don't use Gene-seed. Or call them anything at all. They're just not space marines.

[Donkey Kong]

Haha, okay. I'm an ignorant seventeen year old entering my senior year of high school. But, you, sir high and mighty, don't understand how to use an edit button.

 

Funny, I thought GW was the ultimate arbiter on canon, what with all those codices, rulebooks, and tournament requirements...all a smoke screen, eh?

 

Good joke.

 

Apologies for Warseer-based cut and pastes, but this came up there recently. Several people were hostile to it, but whatever. That doesn't stop it being true.

 

Ultimately, there is no "canon" in 40K the way most other licenses have. In fact, the way people divide it like Star Wars or Star Trek canon into different layers is usually just something that - in my experience - bemuses GW HQ. When they say "It's all right and it's all wrong", they mean it.

 

There are sources that are considered more reliable or that inform other material more than others, but no, overall, there's not a "canon" that GW is adhering to.

 

"The universe doesn't work the way popular canon/non-canon universes work. Now, you can ascribe reasons to that, for or against it, but those are irrelevant. It just doesn't work like that, and the people working in (and for) those companies therefore don't operate to the system of behaviour you demand from them. They will, therefore, always be producing "wrong" and "lazy" work to you, because you're not grasping how the license works.

 

I don't say that to be condescending, or because I think it's a great way to run a license, but there's a fundamental difference between the way the companies operate with their license and the way people think they operate with it. And until that can come across better, rather than being treated as a knee-jerk defence, no accord will ever be reached, and you'll get GWHQ watching these arguments in bemused states of "Wow, these guys are slow" and you'll get people like you, me, and everyone else on both sides of the fence.

 

I'll give you an example of what I mean.

 

If I said, f'rex, that lasguns work in a certain way that was loosely like Dawn of War, no one in BL, FW or GW would "correct that" in the novel before it reached print. Because to them, despite the fact that lasguns are described as working in different ways in several different novels and books, it's not wrong. It's certainly different to others, but at no point would anyone in the process say "This is wrong." To them, it's essentially a multiverse. To you, it's an excuse to cover mistakes. To them, someone who plays Ultramarines and names all 10 captains their own way, is just as right as the guy who names them all after the names listed in the codex. To you, he's not canonical. To them, a bolter round can misfire and it's obviously just a lucky break for the guy hit, as happens to soldiers in war. For you, it's an unforgivable inconsistency that the bolt didn't explode, as all bolt shells explode.

 

The thing is, I was 150% on your side of the fence for a very long time. As I said, it took a sit-down explanation from the Manager of Games Workshop's Intellectual Property to actually convince me. Before that, I'd accused my own editors of just not getting it right. I'm not some coy apologist. I'm just explaining the setting as it was finally explained to me. The "It's all right, and it's all wrong" aspect is a theme of the license, and pretty dear to the hearts of the creators. It's a big part of the fuel for the setting, and seen as a plus - a freedom for people to contribute to the overall license - rather than a screed of ignorable inconsistencies that the vocal minority on the internet seems to get riled up over.

 

I literally can't explain it any clearer. You may not like it, but it won't change, and it is what it is."

 

 

tl;dr -- The main reason BL is incorrectly considered "not canon" is because of people's opinions of many of the books. Forge World is also a subsidiary company - with arguably looser ties to GW than BL - but their stuff is always considered canon because there's much less divided opinion on it.

 

And regarding the Horus Heresy, the way Games Workshop and the original creators of the Horus Heresy have chosen to tell the entire story is through novels, not studio material. With the greatest respect, saying those aren't canon is missing the point, and clinging to a pretty thin denial that doesn't hold up under the reality of the situation.

 

Dan Abnett

 

I think the simple answer is that we will always be un-canonical to somebody. Doesn’t matter if you’re writing 40K or Star Trek, and it doesn’t matter how officially approved you are, there’s always going to be someone who doesn’t like the way you do it. I’ve been told as much on several occasions (Jim and the editors are correct, A – grow a pair and buy a helmet, coz it’s a great big scary world of fandom out there, and here’s where you start payin’… in sweat). Yes, people have told me this on several occasions. Once or twice, they’ve even been polite about it.

 

This is inevitable when our ‘brand root’ is a hobby rather than a movie or a TV show. The very nature of the hobby encourages everyone to collect, paint and personalize their own collection and develop its mythos with the help of other players doing the same thing. The spread of variables is huge. And I’m not talking about something as obvious as a player unilaterally deciding that the primarch of his White Scars is going to be called Fiona (not that there’s anything wrong with that). I’m talking about the subtle, ever-flowing, Chinese whisper mutations that occur with living continuity.

 

Marc Gascoigne

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

 

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

 

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

 

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

 

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

 

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you."

 

So, you see, regardless of who writes it, be it you, me, Jes Goodwin, Matt Ward, Dan Abnett, Aaron Dembski-Bowden, C. S. Goto, or Alan Merrett himself, it's all the same degree of wrong.

 

Congratulations, you're special. :tu: The point is, PRECEDENT. If you can point to something similar in established, published works, it makes you look like less of tool.

 

Show me some precedent or an example whereupon any other Space Marine anywhere in the literature doesn't have any gene-seed at all. I dare you. Dazzle me with your brilliance.

 

Oh, you want an example. Now I understand. See, there's these twenty dudes in official material, "Canon," if you so choose, called the Primarchs. You may have heard of them a couple times. I know I have, but your reading comprehension are obviously superior to my own, so you must have. They were the leaders of Space Marines. They walked like Space Marines, they talked like Space Marines, the committed mass genocide, just like Space Marines, and, no lie, they didn't have a gene-seed. Now, here's the best part, the Twenty First Founding was an attempt to recreate the Primarchs.

 

Then you miss the point of 40k, don't you? Its not my fault your reading comprehension and interpretive skills are substandard or inferior.

 

I have never seen the point in accepting garbage, be it a physical object, crappy stories and information, or slander from self-righteous people like you.

 

Edit: Dan Abnett and Marc Gascoigne Quote Sources

[Gulag]

I'm an ignorant seventeen year old entering my senior year of high school.

 

I have never seen the point in accepting garbage, be it a physical object, crappy stories and information, or slander from self-righteous people like you.

 

Who needs the edit button? I was right the first time. You've made my point for me, I appreciate the lengthy response though, very nice.

 

I'll now bow out to your superior ability to quote and link.

 

As for self-righteous, you set the tone, I just reciprocated.

 

Bye bye.

[Ferrus Manus]

Since you took the time to reply to my thread, I thought I'd do the same.

 

Now, have a read through the thread I decided I'd treat this the same way I'd treat Female Space Marines or Lost Legion articles and that is simply to take it on its own, at face value. Rather than be negative anyway.

 

Now, the one burning question I have since finishing the thread is this:

 

Astartes consider their gene-seed sacred, it makes them what they are. The numerous examples of meddling with gene-seed in the full have all been prevented once discovered. Granted, this is slightly different. But, how would you think that a normal Astarte would react to these guys - these twisted mirrors of them?

[Brother Augustine]

Awesome, something I said made it in. Also, the helmets create an interesting, distinguishing look. But Ferrus makes a valid point, how are other Space Marines going to react to them. Also, are they going to call themselves Space Marines or do those people in the Imperium who have never seen a Space Marine just assume they are because they have a similar Physique? Do other Space Marines see them as Space Marines or do they see them as some form of Skitarii variant?

(Might have spelt that wrong, can't remember)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm intrigued.

 

I, personally, would not have tried something quite so audacious - in my opinion it doesn't coherently fit with the 40k background as I know and love it - but when I have the time (i.e. when I'm not supposed to be working) I'll have a proper read through.

 

 

[highhorse]

One final point though - teenage grumpiness aside - what is with all the naysaying? Seriously?

 

Not liking someones idea is fine, commenting on it likewise but can we not do so in a considered and reasonable way?

[/highhorse]

[Ace Debonair]

[highhorse]

One final point though - teenage grumpiness aside - what is with all the naysaying? Seriously?

 

Not liking someones idea is fine, commenting on it likewise but can we not do so in a considered and reasonable way?

[/highhorse]

 

To be fair and impartial, KHK is proposing an entirely different way of creating Space Marines.

Not directly tied to the HLOT, secret weapons of the Inquisition and not using any gene-seed in the traditional sense.

 

And the internet and life being what they are, for every approval of this, there will be an equal and opposite disapproval.

 

That said, let's not let complaining take over this thread.

Or complaining about the people who are complaining. Down that road madness lies. :mellow:

 

I'll take another, proper look at what I've missed later, if I get chance.

[Darkchild130]

To be fair and impartial, KHK is proposing an entirely different way of creating Space Marines.

Not directly tied to the HLOT, secret weapons of the Inquisition and not using any gene-seed in the traditional sense.

 

Exactly, which is why I gave my initial idea to the OP. On a related note, this thread inspired me to go and buy the first three volumes of Full Metal Alchemist out of curiosity, and as someone who does not like manga (except battle angel alita) I was pleasently surprised!

 

Darkchild