Weapon Allocation

[Krakev]

Apologies if this has been asked and answered in a previous thread, I couldn't find anything with the same specific circumstances.

 

My list for the Death Company is 5 models. 1 with Power Fist, 2 Power Weapons and the rest with CCW+Bolt Pistol.

 

I'm wondering, should I go:

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

or

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+PW

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

I've not bothered giving the PF guy a pistol as he won't benefit from the extra attack, but I'm at a loss as to whether or not it would work out best to give the two Power Weapons to the same guy and negate the loss of extra attacks across the squad.

 

Does anyone have any experience of running a similar list?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Apologies if this has been asked and answered in a previous thread, I couldn't find anything with the same specific circumstances.

 

My list for the Death Company is 5 models. 1 with Power Fist, 2 Power Weapons and the rest with CCW+Bolt Pistol.

 

I'm wondering, should I go:

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

or

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+PW

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

I've not bothered giving the PF guy a pistol as he won't benefit from the extra attack, but I'm at a loss as to whether or not it would work out best to give the two Power Weapons to the same guy and negate the loss of extra attacks across the squad.

 

Does anyone have any experience of running a similar list?

 

I'm not sure how you think the rule works, but a Death Company model with bolt pistol and power weapon will get four power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Putting a power weapon and boltgun on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

Your loadout - to maximise combat potential - should be: powerfist/boltgun, power weapon/bolt pistol, power weapon/bolt pisol, close-combat weapon/bolt pistol, close-combat weapon/bolt pistol.

 

You'll have eight regular attacks, eight power weapon attacks and three power fist attacks on the charge.

[Morollan]

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

2 base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for charging = 4

[JamesI]

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

2 base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for charging = 4

Yes, 2 PW on 1 guy gives 4 attacks on the charge, but so does 1 pw/1bp for far less cost.

[Morollan]

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

 

2 base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for charging = 4

Yes, 2 PW on 1 guy gives 4 attacks on the charge, but so does 1 pw/1bp for far less cost.

 

Indeed. Brother Byhilli got the right conclusion but I just wanted to correct that one error.

[Krakev]

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

2 base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for charging = 4

Yes, 2 PW on 1 guy gives 4 attacks on the charge, but so does 1 pw/1bp for far less cost.

You only get +1 for 2 cc weapons if both Power Weapons are the same, unless I've mis-read the rules. PW+BP doesn't count as 2 cc weapons.

[Morollan]

Putting two power weapons on a Death Company model will give him three power weapon attacks on the charge.

2 base, +1 for 2 cc weapons, +1 for charging = 4

Yes, 2 PW on 1 guy gives 4 attacks on the charge, but so does 1 pw/1bp for far less cost.

You only get +1 for 2 cc weapons if both Power Weapons are the same, unless I've mis-read the rules. PW+BP doesn't count as 2 cc weapons.

 

That only applies to Thunder Hammers, Power Fists and Lightning Claws. Power Weapons are fine. In any event, 2 power weapons would qualify anyway as they are two of the same type.

[Xenith]

PF+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

PW+Boltgun

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

or

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+PW

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

Both of these loadouts aren't great, actually. They pretty much waste the presence of power weapons.

 

PW needs to go with a bp as already covered to get the +1A - Re-read that section of the rules carefully.

 

Go with:

 

PF+Boltgun

PW+Bolt Pistol

PW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+bolter

CCW+bolt pistol

 

The last two are equipped as so to mess with wound allocation. TBH, mixing chainswords and power weapons is a bad idea, either have more power weapons than swords, or no weapons - An equal mix will see the power wounds allocated away to nothingness when attacking small units, this unit will work better attacking large units where you get a chance to hit everything.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Sorry, I got a mix-up there. I was thinking of the rules for having two different special weapons. Brain got a little confused.

 

But yes, the point remains: bolt pistol plus power weapon is the most efficient way of getting power weapons into your squad.

 

I also agree with Xenith's final comment about using more power weapons. The reason for this from my stand-point is that Death Company will hit with 89% of their attacks against most enemies and will wound with at least 89% of their hits against most enemies (this goes up to 97% against T3 or less). Those combine against, say, MEQ, to give you 79% of all your attacks causing wounds. Now, if you have power weapons, then 79% of all your attacks are causing a kill. But if you don't have power weapons, that number absolutely plummets from 79% of your attacks killing down to 26% of your attacks killing. The reason? Death Company come with a built-in reroll that negates your opponent's WS and T values. However, they have no way of negating an armour save - unless you give them power weapons. Without power weapons your ability to negate weapon skill and toughness is heavily mitigated by suddenly running smack! into armour saves. With power weapons, you negate their weapon skill and toughness and they have no armour saves to fall back on.

 

If I remember correctly, Death Company with power weapons are nearly 75% more points-per-kill efficient than Death Company without power weapons.

[Krakev]

That settles it then, just re-read the rules for power weapons and know now what I'm doing.

 

Next thing that has been mentioned is 'wound allocation'. Since DC are all 1W models I'm assuming that this refers to allocation of wounds to my opponents? -may be a noob question, but I've always played with the understanding that wounds are allocated by your opponent unless you have a special rule that states otherwise. Does this refer to singling out IC's in base-to-base contact?

[JamesI]

That settles it then, just re-read the rules for power weapons and know now what I'm doing.

 

Next thing that has been mentioned is 'wound allocation'. Since DC are all 1W models I'm assuming that this refers to allocation of wounds to my opponents? -may be a noob question, but I've always played with the understanding that wounds are allocated by your opponent unless you have a special rule that states otherwise. Does this refer to singling out IC's in base-to-base contact?

You allocate wounds to your guys, not your opponent.

 

Saves for like models are rolled together (if you have 3 bolt pistol and chainsword guys, and each takes 2 wounds. You roll all 6 together and take out casualties). Even for a 1 wound unit there are advantages to playing with wound allocation.

[Krakev]

Cheers JamesI, I thought that must be what it was referring to, so to take advantage of 'wound allocation' I'd be best going with:

 

PF+Bolter

PW+Bolter

PW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolter

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

Though this isn't necessarily going to be the best use of power weapons in the unit. Gives more shooting than the other combo...

 

Oh my lord... have you ever asked a question and then ended up more confused when you get the answer?!? :P

[JamesI]

don't be so worried about wound allocation issues. Never put a bolter and power weapon on the same model.

[Brother_Byhlli]

don't be so worried about wound allocation issues. Never put a bolter and power weapon on the same model.

 

This.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Cheers JamesI, I thought that must be what it was referring to, so to take advantage of 'wound allocation' I'd be best going with:

 

PF+Bolter

PW+Bolter

PW+Bolt Pistol

CCW+Bolter

CCW+Bolt Pistol

 

Though this isn't necessarily going to be the best use of power weapons in the unit. Gives more shooting than the other combo...

 

Oh my lord... have you ever asked a question and then ended up more confused when you get the answer?!? :P

 

If you really, absolutely and desperately want to play wound allocation games (and they can, in extreme situations, be very useful), then go with this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

 

I mean, really, we're talking about spending silly points for the possibility of keeping one guy alive, maybe, depending on what wounds you take, perhaps, if you roll luckily, possibly.

 

Realistically, your best load-out (in my opinion) is probably this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

[Astorath the Grim]

I'm going to agree with Byhlli, with DC wound allocation shinanigans really aren't all that necisary...with their fnp, they are dead hard to begin with

[Jolemai]

Realistically, your best load-out (in my opinion) is probably this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

 

Should this be scaled up to fit in a Rhino, would you suggest 1 Fist, Four PW and Four BPC (With the Chaplain being the tenth slot) as the best loadout or would this change significantly with greater numbers/Chaplain added?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Realistically, your best load-out (in my opinion) is probably this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

 

Should this be scaled up to fit in a Rhino, would you suggest 1 Fist, Four PW and Four BPC (With the Chaplain being the tenth slot) as the best loadout or would this change significantly with greater numbers/Chaplain added?

 

I was using the models that Xenith had in his original list.

 

Ideally, I think I'd probably aim for greater power weapons and fewer Death Company bodies. I rather feel that your four non-power weapon bodies add very little to the squad. I don't think you need them. They provide a few extra kills and give you some ablative bodies to drop before you start losing bodies, but I'd be tempted probably to drop the four non-power weapon Death Company for two or three more all with power weapons if you can afford them.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

If you really, absolutely and desperately want to play wound allocation games (and they can, in extreme situations, be very useful), then go with this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

 

Unfortunately you can't have 2 infernus pistols in a 5 man squad.

[Brother_Byhlli]

If you really, absolutely and desperately want to play wound allocation games (and they can, in extreme situations, be very useful), then go with this:

 

Power fist/boltgun

Power weapon/bolt pistol

Power weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/infernus pistol

Close-combat weapon/bolt pistol

 

Unfortunately you can't have 2 infernus pistols in a 5 man squad.

 

Well noticed, sir. Good thing, anyway. Infernus pistols are a points-sink in Death Company.

 

:)

[SamaNagol]

Actually, with their FnP and 3+ save, wound allocation actually works pretty well with DC. Any Power Weapon wounds circumvent both of these strengths, so the more PW wounds you can stack on one model, the better

[Morticon]

Actually, with their FnP and 3+ save, wound allocation actually works pretty well with DC. Any Power Weapon wounds circumvent both of these strengths, so the more PW wounds you can stack on one model, the better

 

 

^ This !!

[Xenith]

Next thing that has been mentioned is 'wound allocation'. Since DC are all 1W models I'm assuming that this refers to allocation of wounds to my opponents? -may be a noob question, but I've always played with the understanding that wounds are allocated by your opponent unless you have a special rule that states otherwise. Does this refer to singling out IC's in base-to-base contact?

 

You kind of have that the wrong way around: You always allocate wounds, unless your opponent has a special rule that lets them do it (Tellion)

 

Ok, since youre a little unclear on wound allocation, an example: a 10 man tactical squad with 8 bolters, a lascannon and plasmagun rapid fires at your 5 man death company squad, incidentally scoring 8 bolter wounds (B ), and two wounds from plasmagun (P), 10 wounds received total, 2 of which ignore armour+FnP. You now choose who these wounds have to go on.

 

Original set up:

You obviously dont want the upgraded models to die, so you put an AP2 (P) wounds on one of the the normal guys, then four bolt rounds (B ) go onto the others. Then you need to allocate the rest of the wounds, ap2 (P) goes on the same guy, bolt (B ) onto the rest, resulting in this:

 

PF+Boltgun - B,B

PW+Boltgun - B, B

PW+Boltgun - B, B

CCW+Bolt Pistol - B, B

CCW+Bolt Pistol - P, P

 

You have allocated both plasma to one guy, but as both CCW+BP guys have identical statlines and weapons, they are the same wound group, so their armour saves are combined, meaning that two plasma wounds kills two models from that group. Even allocating both wounds to a single guy gets two killed. The only way to only lose one guy in this instance is to allocate both plasma to the powerfist, which is a bad idea.

 

My set up: same number of wounds, but with the two differently armed normal dudes, you can do this:

 

PF+Boltgun - B,B

PW+Bolt Pistol - B,B

PW+Bolt Pistol - B,B

CCW+bolter - P,P

CCW+bolt pistol - B,B

 

Now as one has a bolter, and the other a bolt pistol, they are different wound groups, and thusly take saves separately, and the guy with a bolter takes both plasma rounds to the chest, losing only one model to AP2.

[Krakev]

2 of which ignore armour+FnP.

Am I right to think that Plasma does not ignore FNP since it is only S7 and not an instant kill for a T4 model?

 

I understand the wound allocation rules, I was referring to wounds inflicted by the DC would be allocated by the opponent. Just my poor use of English that caused confusion I think. :)

[Cockroach]

2 of which ignore armour+FnP.

Am I right to think that Plasma does not ignore FNP since it is only S7 and not an instant kill for a T4 model?

 

I understand the wound allocation rules, I was referring to wounds inflicted by the DC would be allocated by the opponent. Just my poor use of English that caused confusion I think. ^_^

 

This is wrong dude.

The strength of the weapon is not important in regards to FNP, even if it is strength 10.

It is the AP of the weapon that is important.

The strength of the weapon just determines how easy it is to wound you. The AP determines whether you get an armour save or not.

If you're allowed an armour save, then you can use FNP. If the AP value of the weapon is lower than your armour save, No save is allowed therefore no FNP rolls can be made.

A plasma gun is strength 7 AP2. AP2 penetrates your power armour save of 3+ so no save can be made therefore no FNP rolls can be made.

You should bear in mind though, most high strength weapons USUALLY have a low enough AP value to negate power armour.

 

 

You're looking way too much into this Instant kill thing. The 'instant death' rule is ONLY there for multi wound models, such as monstrous creatures and characters. Seeing as your DC are all 1 wound each, it is not important.