When is a Grey Knight army, not a Grey Knight army?

[Gentlemanloser]

Trying to develop a more interesting discussion, birthed from the one about multiple Vindicares. This has absolutley nothing to do with the subjective pleasures of 40k, or how any of us would desire to play.

 

Just purely about a (currently) unique position the Grey Knight Codex finds itself in, and another case where the rules of the game have folded, and rely on fluff understanding.

 

When is a Grey Knight army, no longer a Grey Knight army?

 

This question stems from an oversight to the rules of 40K, where 'race' isn't specified by a Special Rule (apart from singular instances like 'Daemon'), and generally Codexes are focused on a Single 'Race'. Race wouldn't have too much of an impact in the game, if it wasn't for other Special Rules that require this undefined trait. Prefered Enemy in particular. Not only have we had to have a FAQ update what is effected by our Prefered Enemy, but other occurances of this highlight the Problem. Veckt's Prefered Enemy to Eldar for example, or Tycho's for Orks.

 

Not so much of a problem GL, as well, we all know Veckt's works for everything in codex Eldar. They're all Eldar, right?

 

But, we're starting to see more and more 'dexes with mixed 'race' units. Like Space Wolves and thier non Space Wolf, Fenrisian Wolves units. But unlike the Grey Knight Dex, no other army (currently, this might change with the new SoB dex) can make an entire compulsary army made of, how shall I put it, the non core race. Space Wolves still need to use a 'Space Wolf' HQ choice. Tau still need a Tau HQ (unless there's Kroot one, no idea to be honest.).

 

But Coteaz throws a spanner in the works. ^_^

 

With Coteaz and Henchmen (and some Assassins thrown in for good measure) you can build an entire 'Grey Knights' army, without using any Grey Knights. (as a caveat, this was never an issue for the old Inquisition dexes, becuase they weren't 'Race' dexes. A DH army of Inquisitor Lord and Strom Troops, was still a DH army).

 

So is this still a 'Grey Knight' army?

 

Imagine the implications if in later rules, some army, or unit got Prefered Enemy: Grey Knights. Or maybe even P.E. Space Marines (who knows with the rumoured new Chaos Legion 'dex!).

 

Or more globally, things appear like the old ally rules that work with a 'Space Marine' or 'Grey Knight' army.

 

Is an army made of entirely non Grey Knight units (which is a notion we have only fluff to base our criteria on...), a 'Space Marine' or 'Grey Knight' army? Even if it's made purely of units from Codex: Grey Knights?

 

Food for thought! ;)

[KnowThyEnemy]

I never did understand the changing of the name. Daemonhunters just sounded awesome. and they were still grey knights. i agree with the sentiment of it being odd, but i think the greater crime is the name change :D.

[thade]

What your army is isn't defined, in name, by its Codex; it's defined in ability and rules by its Codex. For instance, my marines are Salamanders successors who adhere to Codex Astartes...but they field more apothecaries than the Codex allows (due to their small numbers and the authority the apothecarion has gained), have faster Rhino chasses, and at times flatly refuse to retreat, even if it's smart to do so. I use the Blood Angels codex.

 

So at a tournament or if someone asks me "What codex am I using", I just show them my codex as it's a quick answer and usually all they really want to know. But, are they a Blood Angels army? No. I've got some models with black skin and red eyes; my chapter has a forge father (a Reclusiarch), and according to their fluff they believe they've found one of Vulkan's relics (which their parent chapter is all sorts of upset about). If people press and ask "But...what are they, I explain it."

 

As for whether an Inquisition force built with Coteaz and not a single Grey Knight in it...well, I'd show them the Codex as my first answer, followed by "They are Daemonhunters" or "They're an Ordo (whatever) detachment" as my second answer. There's likely a story involved if I penned the list. The people I most enjoy playing against usually have stories of their own. :D

[Gentlemanloser]

What your army is isn't defined, in name, by its Codex; it's defined in ability and rules by its Codex.

 

But isn't it one of those undefined rules due to history of fluff issues? How about Veckt's P.E. Eldar working versus WarithLords and WarithGuard?

 

I know the easy answer here is that each unit should have a defined 'race', possibly noted in their Unit Composition Entry. But I don't want to focus this discussion around a rules query! :D

 

I've always loved 'counts-as', creating my own chapters, using various parent rules to define them. At one point I was planning to run a loyalist Marine chapter using the CSM codex with a Sensei like leader (using the DP rules).

 

But they would have had to be effected by anything that effected Chaos Space Marines, and not Loyalist Marines (so quick example, no allying with the WH! :D).

 

(Edit: And just to include it, the gestalt form the Vindicare topic would be the question if you can ally WHs to a Coteaz list without any GK units. As is that *really* a Space Marine army?)

 

I never did understand the changing of the name. Daemonhunters just sounded awesome. and they were still grey knights. i agree with the sentiment of it being odd, but i think the greater crime is the name change

 

I understand why they, it was to shift emphasis, to make the players know that the GK were the focus of this new Dex. Is there any other army that can field a list based totally on the non core race?

 

Have GW erred by naming the codexes (and by extension the name of your army) by basing them on a single race?

[KnowThyEnemy]

i should have been more specific <_<. i know why they did it, it would've been odd to have the inquisition as the focal point yet 90% of the units grey knight related. i just don't understand why'd they would change the dynamic. currently, the book has more of a "grey knights lead, inquisition follows" feel rather than the other way around. or at least a separation of powers thing going on. they used to be very much inter-twined, which made for cool backstories and game dynamics.

 

this issue has been around since the older codex though, with radical inquisitors resorting to stormtroopers and the like when using their daemonhosts. i think they missed a golden opportunity to make a mega codex though, which would've helped prevent your potential rules conflict. just imagine if you will: all the ordos represented, multiple combinations available to all or you could go all x/m/h. o the combinations that you'd see... now THAT would be power creep :(. i'm just glad my deathwatch have a place as crusaders.

 

p.s. are you sure vect only has PE against eldar? could've swore he had it against everyone...

[Gentlemanloser]

:/

 

No idea. I was told by our Deldar player it was P.E. to Eldar, but it wouldn't surprise me to be versus everyone! <_<

 

In which case sub Veckt for Tycho and his P.E. Orks. :(

[Full_ork]

Trying to develop a more interesting discussion, birthed from the one about multiple Vindicares. This has absolutley nothing to do with the subjective pleasures of 40k, or how any of us would desire to play.

 

Just purely about a (currently) unique position the Grey Knight Codex finds itself in, and another case where the rules of the game have folded, and rely on fluff understanding.

 

When is a Grey Knight army, no longer a Grey Knight army?

 

This question stems from an oversight to the rules of 40K, where 'race' isn't specified by a Special Rule (apart from singular instances like 'Daemon'), and generally Codexes are focused on a Single 'Race'. Race wouldn't have too much of an impact in the game, if it wasn't for other Special Rules that require this undefined trait. Prefered Enemy in particular. Not only have we had to have a FAQ update what is effected by our Prefered Enemy, but other occurances of this highlight the Problem. Veckt's Prefered Enemy to Eldar for example, or Tycho's for Orks.

 

Not so much of a problem GL, as well, we all know Veckt's works for everything in codex Eldar. They're all Eldar, right?

 

But, we're starting to see more and more 'dexes with mixed 'race' units. Like Space Wolves and thier non Space Wolf, Fenrisian Wolves units. But unlike the Grey Knight Dex, no other army (currently, this might change with the new SoB dex) can make an entire compulsary army made of, how shall I put it, the non core race. Space Wolves still need to use a 'Space Wolf' HQ choice. Tau still need a Tau HQ (unless there's Kroot one, no idea to be honest.).

 

But Coteaz throws a spanner in the works. :angry:

 

With Coteaz and Henchmen (and some Assassins thrown in for good measure) you can build an entire 'Grey Knights' army, without using any Grey Knights. (as a caveat, this was never an issue for the old Inquisition dexes, becuase they weren't 'Race' dexes. A DH army of Inquisitor Lord and Strom Troops, was still a DH army).

 

So is this still a 'Grey Knight' army?

 

Imagine the implications if in later rules, some army, or unit got Prefered Enemy: Grey Knights. Or maybe even P.E. Space Marines (who knows with the rumoured new Chaos Legion 'dex!).

 

Or more globally, things appear like the old ally rules that work with a 'Space Marine' or 'Grey Knight' army.

 

Is an army made of entirely non Grey Knight units (which is a notion we have only fluff to base our criteria on...), a 'Space Marine' or 'Grey Knight' army? Even if it's made purely of units from Codex: Grey Knights?

 

Food for thought! ;)

 

 

Do Cortez's henchmen count as troops in the new book? If not, how would you be able to field a greyknight army without greyknights since it seems (I don't own the book so I don't really know) they only have greyknights and termies as troops. I don't notice any other troop type, so how could you have a greyknightless greyknight army?

[muadib02]

Yeah it does.

[roryscrusade]

Grey knights are overpowered play with the unforgiven