Master Melta Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 So, I get hot and cold on this issue, time and time again. I lust for the army, then I come to my senses and paint the backlog I've got and cool off, then the cycle begins again, and again... I need your help in deciding what to do, what not to do and how to do it, in theory. I don't need convincing on whehter or not to start the army. I'm either going to or I won't. However, if I do I want to have every single question answered, a plan in place, and execute like an elite asartes. Let's start with what I want:(I do not yet have the codex, it's on my list.) Draigo Wing. Draigo is required, the wing is named for him after all as he make Paladins Troops. SO, he is on the list of Needs. I am not all goo goo over him, just the idea of all terminator/grey nights, etc. Is he needed? I want paladins obviously. Taking these leads to questions pertaining to the army selection and building. 1. I know I want to take avantage of wound shenanigans. I assume the kits come with enough things to do this? They sure look like it, with 3 sprues for 5 goons. 2. I also see lots of people recomending psicannons exclusively, but I only see 1 per 5 goons in the box. Will this require more boxes than necessary to take full advantage of the equiping. 3. Do I want ALL paladins? I don't care really but want to get the most bang for my buck, points and dollars wise. If I don't take all of them then I would be taking base GK terminators. 4. Do I have to take a librarian? I see lots of lists suggesting this but I am indifferent so I would like pro-cons. 5. Do I have to take Dreadknights? I would prefer not to, since.... I don't really like they look of them but will. 6. If I do take them, can give them any weapon I want, mainly the cool looking ones or are they garbage if I don't take weapon x. 7. I plan on having an army from 1850 to 2250 base, so escelation reccomendations at each stage would be really nice and welcomed. If this has all been discussed, please point me in the right direction. If this is a silly request, and the best answer is : read the codex and get back to us, I will. I just wanted to get a leg up. Thanks MM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Draigo is required, the wing is named for him after all as he make Paladins Troops. SO, he is on the list of Needs. I am not all goo goo over him, just the idea of all terminator/grey nights, etc. Is he needed? If you want to exclusively field paladins, yes you need him. Otherwise your Paladins (which are too expensive to take other units along with them when you're maxing them out for model-count and wound allocation) will not be able to score. Also, without Draigo and exclusively Paladins, it's not Draigo wing. :) It's something else. Which is okay! And doable, but a separate topic. Would amount to 5-10 paladins. 1. I know I want to take avantage of wound shenanigans. I assume the kits come with enough things to do this? They sure look like it, with 3 sprues for 5 goons. You can make each guy in a kit different; five pairs of legs and five chests/backs per box with almost every weapon config you could want, even before you start throwing "Master Crafted" around (which amounts to a bit of gold paint really). 2. I also see lots of people recomending psicannons exclusively, but I only see 1 per 5 goons in the box. Will this require more boxes than necessary to take full advantage of the equiping. One psycannon per box (per five terminators) is all you get; I ordered my additional psycannons from a bitz site as - frankly - more boxes would only give me more terminators I'd otherwise want to have more psycannons for. So I nipped it in the bud; you could mass-buy the boxes though, sure. 3. Do I want ALL paladins? I don't care really but want to get the most bang for my buck, points and dollars wise. If I don't take all of them then I would be taking base GK terminators. There are more than a few guys on here (who will speak up soon, I'm sure) that use one unit of Paladins (between five to ten strong) and fill out with one or tw GK Terminator units. The benefit there is giving up upgrade options (and some effective durability) for more bodies (which can make up for what you just gave up easily, and is more forgiving in scoring missions...because you have more bodies). That said, Nurglez, myself, and others are in it for the Paladins and they're the only infantry they field. Depends on what you want. Personally, I want the challenge and the narrative aspect of very few models. 4. Do I have to take a librarian? I see lots of lists suggesting this but I am indifferent so I would like pro-cons. Not required, but a popular choice; not because of his benefits to the Draigo-wing in particular, but his benefits in general He's a great unit; 2+/5++, potentially 4++ or even 2++ in melee, with a host of extremely useful powers. You can also go with an Inquisitor as an off-HQ (another popular choice) as you can get another psycannon and/or another cheap dose of Psychic Communion for reserves games. You can also forgo the second HQ altogether. 5. Do I have to take Dreadknights? I would prefer not to, since.... I don't really like they look of them but will. Have to? Not at all; you can just as easily take more Paladins, or something else...Rifleman Dreads are pretty popular (and effective) for ranged fire support. You could also take a Stormraven or LR to give some mobility to your otherwise foot-slogging force. That said, Dreadknights are bamfs: they soak a lot of fire, and with a teleporter can shunt (30" move once per game) to contest something late game; I can see that winning people a lot of games. 6. If I do take them, can give them any weapon I want, mainly the cool looking ones or are they garbage if I don't take weapon x. Get the codex. ;) In short, they can upgrade their already formidable melee as a MC (S6, 2d6 pen, ignores armor) with a Daemonhammer (S10, still 2d6 pen, still ignores armor, also a thunder hammer) or a Greatsword (S6, rerolls to wound and to pen...possibly to hit? I can't recall). They can also select up to two gun options (Hv Incinerator, Hv Psilencer, and Hv Psycannon)...all of which have their uses, the Incinerator being the most popular currently. Personally I'm going to magnetize mine so I can change loadouts at will. That model is expensive and I want my full money's worth. 7. I plan on having an army from 1850 to 2250 base, so escelation reccomendations at each stage would be really nice and welcomed. Nurglez and others can comment better on the lower point values than I can; at 1850 I'd be giving up probably my Inquisitor and my assassin, leaving me with 17 paladins, Draigo, and a DK, if memory serves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Heh, saw this thread and saw that Thade was reading it, so waited til he finished commenting :) He answered most of the questions right (as per usual ;) ). The great sword can reroll to hit too, making it a good choice for chasing vehicles. You don't have to have heavy support choices at all if you don't want, it all depends on what you want from your force. Draigo wing, while rather hard, is still not considered a "top tier" list, mainly because the paladins are so expensive and their bonuses are cancelled out by high str weapons. I wanted a small elite force, and that is what I have. at 1500 points I bring draigo, 15 paladins (squad of 10 and squad of 5 with max psycannons) and a dreadknight (greatsword, heavy incinerator and teleporter). that is all. at 2000 points I add a twin psybolt autocannon (psyrifle) dread, a libby and another dk. So 17 models 4-5 kp at 1500, and 20 models 7-8 kp at 2000. For me, the libby is very needed, he provides psychic defence, and a whole host of buffs (+1 cover save, assault deterrent, much better close combat buff vs vehicles) and without him I feel I would do less well, though have mainly played at 1500 points without him. There is a thread in this forum by me, and is linked in my siggy, which has a few battle reports from me and advice from other players. Some go the "pure" paladin route, others have 1 big squad and some regular terminators, or with coteaz and some henchmen, or even with a large squad and a few 1 man squads, and the range of heavy support we choose depends on our style. I like dreadknights because of how they look, others go for dread's or landraiders. The kit is rather good, though only comes with 1 of each special weapon, 1 hammer and 1 warding stave. I went for the psylancer and did a barrel swap to make my psycannons, as there were none on the bits sites I looked at. Psycannons are without a doubt the best weapons for greyknight's, psylancers are only good vs daemons, and I'm not even sure how good they are because I wouldn't use them, while incinerators are nice, very few things can withstand a salvo of 4 psycannons (even armour 14 vehicles just crumple normally). I love the whole out numbered thing, and yes having a small model count makes objective games harder, but that is part and parcel of running a "pure" draigo wing list, and the final bonus that got me buying the army was the fact that it was so cheap (my 1500 point force cost me £105 from a independent retailer). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Melta Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Wow. Great advice and speedy to boot! Ok, so how do they fair vs dark eldar? My local area is filled with them and the eat through army after army. I would link that all those dark lance shots would be bad joo joo for a draigo wing army. I love the idea of the twin autocannon dreads but since after FWing it, the cost would be the same or more than a couple of DK, I may just go with the DK(s) OR just more Paladins/GKTerminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I actually haven't seen them in action yet; only one player in my area (who is reportedly quite good). If they can take more than one dark lance per unit, it's a problem; otherwise, it's not that bad. If it's one per squad, each time your Paladin unit gets shot you can stick that insta-death wound on Draigo, who might save it on his 3++ invuln, otherwise he loses a wound (EW). Worst case, stick it on an already wounded paladin and chance that 5++. You might save it, otherwise you only lost one wound. That's what wound allocation is all about after all. You can choose who risks what saves and when. Dark Eldar aren't all about shooting, though; they're about taking away your vehicles and assaulting you. Draigo-wing leaves the vehicles at home and wants very much to be in an assault as they also excel at it. Not knowing the specifics about DE, I can't comment beyond that; probably not a write-off, but not a cakewalk either. That's my guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 there are other ways to make the twin linked autocannons. You can buy autocannons from bitz sites, I used the aegis defence line guns as mine. I haven't played vs dark eldar with my draigo wing, and am rather worried by all the blaster shots they can pump out. the single dark lances from raider's shouldn't be too much of an issue, just assign it to draigo. I'm guessing that you would have to play aggressively and try and take out the main threats quickly. psyrifle dread's or PT DK's would be needed here (and maybe deepstriking in 5 man squads with 2 psycannon's, could be nasty). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 there are other ways to make the twin linked autocannons. You can buy autocannons from bitz sites, I used the aegis defence line guns as mine.I did this as well. (For my marines; won't be using TL-autocannon dreads with the GK, they're too popular.) I haven't played vs dark eldar with my draigo wing, and am rather worried by all the blaster shots they can pump out. the single dark lances from raider's shouldn't be too much of an issue, just assign it to draigo. I'm guessing that you would have to play aggressively and try and take out the main threats quickly. psyrifle dread's or PT DK's would be needed here (and maybe deepstriking in 5 man squads with 2 psycannon's, could be nasty). We also AP them with much of our weaponry (5+ armor saves or worse for the vast majority of them) so things like Incinerators and Psycannons are going to wreck some face. Consider that they wound on 2+ (S6 and S7 respectively) and Draigo can give them the re-roll wound rolls of 1s! High, high chance that your Incinerator will evaporate any eldar it's touching when you fire it. They are T3 so one application of Hammerhand has you wounding on 2s; the bulk of their infantry is I5 to your I6 with Halberds; Quickening on the Librarian will put you before even their ICs (that have I7 and up). Not to mention Sanctuary which will help you mitigate them charging into the pile-up in subsequent turns. Each Paladin has two attacks base, plus one for the banner, so even if you receive the charge you're putting out a whopping 30 attacks in CC, all of which ignore armor. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I want to pick this fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 yes, but the list I'm scared off is multiple true born with 4 blasters in venoms, backed up by ravagers with 3 dark lances and or fighters/bombers. basically anything that can put out a concentrated volume of str 8 ap 2 firepower (I also worry about sternguard/wolf guard with 10 combi melta's in a drop pod). And grand strategy for rerolling 1's to wound is awesome. Gave it to my heavy incinerator greatsword personal teleporter dread knight vs orks, and when he came on he shunted over to snikrot and toasted 12 of his friends, making him remember a pressing engagement somewhere else (he fled). then he ran around killing 12 orks with each salvo and being a nice big distraction (i'm thinking of painting a big bulls eye on my DK... too obvious?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (i'm thinking of painting a big bulls eye on my DK... too obvious?). I'm gonna paint him up like Ronald McDonald and go with a neon sign suspended over his head that flickers on and off: "lol!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zagman Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Most of the info is pretty good so far. At 2.5k I field Driago, Librarian, 20 Paladins, and 3 PT Dreadknights. I've played 32 games with it so far and am loving it. As to DE, I faced a Blaster/DL list in my first Ard Boyz Game on saturday. He brought 23 Blasters and 6 DLs. I massacred my opponent mainly due to TGS scouting and one heck of a DreadKnight Alpha Strike. The game ended after 5 turns. I had 6-7 models left. This is one extremely scary fight for us. Thade, I think you are over thinking the whole DE problem. You don't need Quicksilver or hammerhand to kill on 2s, and you certainly won't need 30 attacks in CC. If they charge you, you'll kill them. If you charge them, you'll kill them. If you shoot them, you'll kill them. With that being said, they have so many units and the ability to saturate you with vast amounts of firepower coupled with a maneuverability you cannot match. So, if they shoot you, they'll kill you. DE need to rely on range and superior firepower to wipe you out. If that isn't their strategy, they're in for a much tougher fight and likely a world of hurt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Johnson the 3rd jr Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I went for the psylancer and did a barrel swap to make my psycannons, as there were none on the bits sites I looked at. What barrel did you put on the psilencer to make it look like a psycannon? When I build my Paladins I am going to go this route so I am very interested in how you did it.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I used the chaos vehicle gargoyles. http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/IMAG0037.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Melta Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 More and more good talks. 1000 Thanks. Sounds like cool headed logic prevails with this list. One thing that does wreck DE shop my Vanilla Marines have is the heavy flamer. You can cook bunched up vehicles with them easily. If incinerators are S6 then that is even better! The local DE meta is very venom, blaster, ravager heavy, but if you can hit those vehicles quick, everything inside is squishy, and those vehicles are just as crumbly. Maybe for fun, Draigo and a couple big units of paladins with psycannons and then some regular GK Terminators with double incinerators DSing in.(Assuming they can do all that). Looks like I'll be picking up the codex tomorrow. MM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 All their vehicles are AV10, no? S5 Psybolt-packing Storm Bolters will enjoy a glance fest there. :devil: And also your psycannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liba terminatus Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 All their vehicles are AV10, no? S5 Psybolt-packing Storm Bolters will enjoy a glance fest there. :devil: And also your psycannons. Round-about but they have stuff like flicker fields(no idea what they do) which make them last slightly longer then a stormraven And don't wyches have their 4++ dodge save in combat or was that prev dex? Watch out for haumonculi they give squads a free pain token ( like fnp, FC, and +1 attack) I know ravagers?( the boat ones) can carry upto four darklances by itself Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolia Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 For extra psycannons... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140049a That's always an option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 For extra psycannons... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140049a That's always an option. So, I only know what you're posting there because of context (I can't load it here in the States)...but that kit of psycannons is no longer available for order. If you try to order it yourself the website will inform you as such. Sad. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Melta Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 Flicker fields give them a 5+ invul on their vehicles. More dangerous for GK are Night Shields which reduce the range of ranged weapons firing at them by 6 inches! OF course, they cannot escape purging at the hands of template wielding GK... 18 inches on the rest of the guns, is limiting though since all their vehicles are fast and have 36inch range guns. I guess one would need to DS nearly everything in. How are GK on DSing vs Mishaps???? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astorath the Grim Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 All their vehicles are AV10, no? S5 Psybolt-packing Storm Bolters will enjoy a glance fest there. :) And also your psycannons. Round-about but they have stuff like flicker fields(no idea what they do) which make them last slightly longer then a stormraven And don't wyches have their 4++ dodge save in combat or was that prev dex? Watch out for haumonculi they give squads a free pain token ( like fnp, FC, and +1 attack) I know ravagers?( the boat ones) can carry upto four darklances by itself Wyches in fact DO have a 4++ save in combat, making them not care about the nemesis force weapons at all...its my experience with termies that the shear number of attacks wyches put out will swamp you under eventually...not to mention the agonizer attacks. If the DE player is using shardnet/impalers, you'll only have one attack for each termie thats in base to base...and you'll be out numbered. I think it'll be a toss up as to who wins...a good combat drug roll could turn the tides in the wyches favor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Melta Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 I've not been impressed with wyches. I think dedicated assault units can take them out without much trouble. Venoms and ravagers and true borns are scarier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 IMO Wyches are actually one of the best assault units for the points. They can go toe to toe with assault terminators... They really can. They can generate a lot of attacks and even though they are typically only S3 the high number of attacks at I6 can be brutal. They also have access to haywire grenades which makes them a threat versus many units including dreadnaughts. A good eldar player will make sure its not a fair fight for their Wyches when necessary by shooting the living crap out of an enemy unit before charging in. Sure a unit like Thunderwolves with stormshields lead by a Bearlord is better in just about every way but they also cost a lot more points. About Draigowing - here are my thoughts. It's going to be a small army but it's very powerful. GK in general can lay down lots and lots of firepower. To me a competitive list will first win by shooting then clean up in melee. GK are definitely currently one of the top close combat armies. I think GKT definitely have a place in the army and they are a great unit for the points when compared to Paladins. If you want to build a competitive list then the Libby and psyflemen are both mandatory choices. The Libby augments the army while the dreads give you some really awesome long range fire support. There is a ton of very useful information in nurglez' thread so make sure to check it out. I have posted a lot of articles in my blog (see my sig) so ya might want to check that out as well. It's a really fun army to play. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astorath the Grim Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I've not been impressed with wyches. I think dedicated assault units can take them out without much trouble. Venoms and ravagers and true borns are scarier. You've not been playing against someone who knows how to play wyches then I'm afraid...Assault squads, DC, sang guard, nobs, slugga boys, assault termies, honor guard...I've taken them all out with wyches...only things that scare me against my wyches are shooty units. Ravagers are scary...venoms and true born are merely cookie cutter units...both die VERY quickly...they are merely flavor of the month net units. Nothing more...a marine army's long range shooting can take this stupid things out in no time. And if it doesn't, paladin psycannon fire will take down the venom easily, and the grey knight termies will annihilate the 5 man squad of trueborn inside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolia Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 For extra psycannons... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1140049a That's always an option. So, I only know what you're posting there because of context (I can't load it here in the States)...but that kit of psycannons is no longer available for order. If you try to order it yourself the website will inform you as such. Sad. :wub: Ouch, yeah I missed that. Thanks for the heads-up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Melta Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 My experience with Wyches: really only 2. 1 unit assaulted and killed 3 sternguard after the others were venomed to death. No shocker there. Then when on to attack and kill 3 tactical terminators that remained after being shot. No shocker there. The other was when they assaulted a 5 man sternguard squad with vulkan attached. Over 6 turns(the game was a 7 turn game) the wyches killed all the sternguard but Vulkan lived, killed them all and even Baron when he joined the fray. I thought they were so BA that when I was assaulted initially I was going to lose everything, but in the end, I won. Narrow basis for comparison, but it's all I have. Again, not worried about them as much as Ravangers, Blasters and Venoms, if I were to play GK. Getting the codex tonight so I will have renewed vigor in questioning tomorrow. MM but I do agree that I want to shoot first everytime! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2850965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The psyfleman is an answer to dealing with Ravagers and venoms. I run two as heavy support and a venerable as elite. Dark eldar players absolutely hate them. :D G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236494-i-want-draigowing/#findComment-2851011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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