Vanguard and Plasma Pistols

[thade]

I've basically tried every bit of wargear for Vanguard with one exception: plasma pistols. Typically I've gone the more traditional (for one that uses vanguard at all) route of equipping them purely for melee (bolt pistols with lit claws and a power fist or two, typically) and conservatively (with "ablative bodies" sans upgrades to take wounds for me, and a shield bearer or two to help weather the enemy hidden power fist).

 

I just realized I use parentheses too often. I should probably stop. Anyway...

 

On the charge, Vanguard with powered weaponry is going to do more damage (I think) than pre-charge plasma shots + normal attacks will...or so I believe. (I don't feel like doing the math-hammer on it right now; work tires me of stats analysis. Now that I've said this, I bet someone will do it for me. <3 At least to punish me for this use of parentheses.)

 

Now I'll do it SANS MATH (so someone had a window to prove me wrong). This is purely from my experience. Say it's my typical six to eight marine squad, this time with four or five plasma pistols (including the sergeant alongside his free sword). Short on ablative bodies (detriment one in my mind). Will hit (and probably wound) with two to three shots. Sans cover that's three dead targets pre-charge. Conversely, if it's my usual load out (3 guys with single LCs, one PF) they're going to do very similar damage (landing 3-4 unsaveable wounds). The difference? Wound allocation.

 

With the power weapon load-out, there's also going to be as many - if not more - attacks that are normal/armor-saveable. This often causes overflow which can be used to stack power weapon hits on models that already have them and are going to die, meaning others have chances at still standing.

 

Overflow and wound allocation is something I've never taken into account when building a squad...well, actually it's everything I consider...in context of my marines. Now I'm thinking of your models. So here's a new load out I'm proposing: five vanguard, one power sword (it's free on the sergeant) and five plasma pistols.

 

Pre-charge I kill two to three MEQ (if they're not in cover); more if I'm lucky. On the charge I get four swings per model...which is like charging with a full tactical squad. The difference being that they are five instead of ten models, meaning it'll be easier to squeeze melee-kitted ICs in to that fight with them. (Namely my beast of a TDA Librarian who loves melee.)

 

Not perfect, but then no plan is. And, honestly, this bears a lot more thought before I'm sold on or against it. So...why not put it here and let the wolves at it, as it were. :)

 

So. Positives? Negatives? Other thoughts? It's lacking in Storm Shields, meaning my usual Vanguard application of engaging a killer IC and weathering his hits is less applicable...but since I've been routinely failing my storm shield saves first try these past several games, I'm not too put out about it.

[JamesI]

well, the big negative is you can't charge from a Heroic Intervention if you shoot.

 

If you aren't using HI, then Plasma's not bad though I would prefer Infernus pistols.

[thade]

well, the big negative is you can't charge from a Heroic Intervention if you shoot.

 

If you aren't using HI, then Plasma's not bad though I would prefer Infernus pistols.

I had considered infernus pistols as well (I have two of them); they can ID and even pen vehicles at need.

 

As for HI, I neglected to mention that I've been strictly using foot-slogging vanguard for so long that I silently assumed that was the case here as well. :) You are very, very right though.

 

As an aside, this entire topic spawned from my considering building a plasma jump team (command squad with four plasma guns) and feeling that wasn't really fluffy for my army. So, here I am trying to 'adapt' it.

[Arikel]

I guess the issues here is one of range and amount of use you will get from the plasmas. Pistols are short range, 12 inches or less and while for sure 5 plasma shots is going to kill something unless you are very unlucky, you may only get that one salvo before the assault begins. Power weapons on the other hand, will continue to swing each round until the model is dead, as long as you are in assault range. On footsloggers, even with a transport, I don't see you getting off more than 1 or 2 salvos per game, so the plasma pistols may be better suited to a jumper squad. This of course will make the squad even more expensive then you may have intended, and may or may not increase the amount of salvos you'll get in the game.

 

As a thought to try this tactic out, you could maybe take a tri plasma 10 man assault squad, and be roughly equal cost(250 for 10 man with tri plas and a pw on the sarge vs 250 for 5 man, 5 plas, jetpack vanguard, a liitle less if you go with a Rhino or RB option for the vanguards)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think this is something we need to talk about a bit more - the "how oftens"

 

In 40K, you get, assuming six turns, six moves.

 

You might get five shooting phases with a RF gun.

 

If you are getting a T2 charge, you might be getting four assault phases [which can be eight considering you are both in the action]

 

But you'll probably only be getting two [four when combined]

 

How many volleys before a charge will you be getting? Two?

How many times will you be shooting and not assaulting?

 

etc.

 

Though quite killy, the fact that you don't get many goes with a plasma pistol, makes them not a good deal, imo.

 

Thoughts?

[Bannus]

Thoughts?

Your logic seems sound except I have a friend who spams plasma pistols in his Vanguard that seem to do very well. He operates on the theory that Space Marines excel at shooting first and close combat second. More often than not, his unit will defeat (not necessarily destroyed - but route) most units in the shooting phase and those that don't break, he can mop up with basic chainswords (and Sergeant's power weapon) in the charge that follows.

[Something Wycked]

Space Marines excel at shooting first and close combat second.

QFT

 

What we can't defeat in assault, we can defeat by shooting. What can defeat us in shooting, we can defeat in assault.

 

Personally I think Plasma Pistols are overcosted for the one shot that you get- though that's just a personal thing, as they haven't performed well for me in the past.

 

I think for the cost, giving all of them lightning claws would be more efficient- no chance for Gets Hot!, no chance that the casualties will be removed and place you out of assualt range or the enemy falls back from shooting.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Thoughts?

Your logic seems sound except I have a friend who spams plasma pistols in his Vanguard that seem to do very well. He operates on the theory that Space Marines excel at shooting first and close combat second. More often than not, his unit will defeat (not necessarily destroyed - but route) most units in the shooting phase and those that don't break, he can mop up with basic chainswords (and Sergeant's power weapon) in the charge that follows.

 

Besides when fighting Marines, do Pp actually contribute much?

 

Guard are being overkilled.

Nice against Sisters [though they might be a non-issue if they are not priced right in this month's WD] but they'd get pwned in combat anyway.

Likewise with Tau. If you cause those Suits to flee, you aren't hidden in combat.... uh oh! Meanwhile Kroot chuckle when you overkill them, or not, becuase they are getting a 3++ cover in woods.

Orks? Boyz don't care. Nobz are not really worried, not for the cost of the gun versus the cost of the wound. They work well against MegaNobz and FNP Heavy Nobz, but the rest of the Orks are happy at your kill-per-point investment ratio.

Daemons are glad from your low rate of fire and them keeping ++ saves.

 

I am not denying your friends experience. I am wondering how they go against non-MEq armies....

 

If you are spending 300 pts on a unit and only getting an okay result whenever they are not being used against non-MEq, you should have spent the points elsewhere.

I am approaching it from a competitive standpoint and units therefore need to not just be pro against half the opponents....

 

:tu:

 

+++

 

Now I do understand the point of a multi-unit, but if you think about it, unless you are giving the VV jump packs [which, imo, means you are not running a points effective unit anyway] then you are relying on the humble pistol to do too much.

So the VV are on Foot now. Right?

 

In that case you get >12" shooting from Sternguard.

 

If the VV are hanging about as a counter-assault unit, the turns that the VV hang around waiting for the foe to reach your line, the SG could have been adding, say, two Las cannon shots into vehicles each turn....

or

Firing the 30" shot into infantry for a few turns.

 

Pecking away for a few turns seems better.

 

What happens if you are playing Tau or Deldar?

Are you really going to rush after them in a Rhino?

The SG could have been popping Broadsides or crashing Raiders, meanwhile the poor rhino driving is flat-out gaining no ground....

[nurglephill]

Very interesting post sir...I have long wondered about a way to get plasma pistols into a list because they are so damn cool!

 

BUT, even if you are correct in all you say I have a fear us putting plasma on any expensive model that doesn't have the FNP safety net.

 

Still, would look so good :tu:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Very interesting post sir...I have long wondered about a way to get plasma pistols into a list because they are so damn cool!

 

BUT, even if you are correct in all you say I have a fear us putting plasma on any expensive model that doesn't have the FNP safety net.

 

Still, would look so good :lol:

 

See I think because C:SM has really quite a few specialist ELITE units, their is only so much you can do before a unit starts to blur the lines with another of them, which might actually be able to, with a slightly different strategy, do that roll much better.

 

Sternguard:

l33t bolter skeeyulz. Can pack two Las cannons, or combi-weapons or heavy flamers.

 

Honour Guard:

i4 power weapons with 2+ save. Diverge from Clawnators due to being able to use Rhinos/Razors and sweeping advance baddies

 

Vanguard:

Not as killy against MEq as HG. But probably offering better kills-per-point against non-MEq. Swaps 2+ for the potential to bring 3++

 

Command squad:

Much like Vanguard [on Foot] but stuck with being 5-man. Gains FNP, which transfer onto Characters [right?]. So a better host for ICs and also able to plasma better, due to having FNP back-up.

 

+++

 

Once you start looking at the, imo, overcosted, Pp, you are getting shown up by the combi-Pg on a Command squad.

 

A Pp costs the same as a proper Pg. The command squad gets to fire that thing at 24" [so infinitely beats the Pp] then twice as much within 12" and all with the protection of FNP.

 

Look at the cost of the Pp. You can get a combi-Mg for a third. Yes, it is only once shot, but again, how many of those shots is the pp getting per game? Plus the Sternguard bolters have been adding something with their 30" ammo.

The Mg shot can pop two wound things as well....

 

You could get three combi-Mg shots per one Pp, do three times the damage in one volley. So what if you cannot fire with it again? The Pp is hoping to get two more turns of shooting to catch up!

 

Lets not even mention the superior effect of an Mg on vehicles, eh? :D

 

+++

 

In summary, due to points cost, the idea of having a bit more sting from the Pp, whilst not a terrible one at all, gets trumped by other units that are much more shooty all the time.

If they were cheaper, I could see it working....

[thade]

I've been thinking a great deal about this (even more since I posted about it) and went ahead and built a test squad, as it were. The squad started out as five models: 1xPF, 5xPP...which hit 200 points even (don't forget the serg's "discount" on the PF like I always do). I ended up with 25 points to spare after the rest of my list was hard, so I threw another body in the vanguard.

 

For context, I'm doing this with the BA codex..so they will very often have an apothecary with them (unless he dies before they do, which is very rare) so they do have the FNP safety-net, as it were. They will also charge at S5/I5, often with re-rolls (the Librarian has the Pref Enem power, for the times he's not going to S10 to rip apart a vehicle or walker). Also, they will be getting a LR variant (LRC for this list) as a limo, and riding alongside them will be a Sternguard in a Razorback and at least one full tactical squad. Some things to keep in mind.

 

Vanguard can sweep, but I've been using them as an entourage of late with my TDA champions (a Librarian with TDA/SS and a "Chief Apothecary" in TDA with a PS) so they seldom sweep these days, unless I break the ICs off for other combats. The Librarian can hold his own but not so the apothecary, even in TDA...though he could stay in the transport, that's not nearly as cool. B) I put a lot of work into that model.

 

Here's my thinking, re: applications.

• The unit runs cheaper than my traditional vanguard load outs by a fair chunk, and is precisely the cost of the alternative: my tactical terminator unit.
  
• They've got a nice intimidation factor with all that plasma; since they're not scoring, they're really there to soak fire and do a healthy amount of damage (hence the LR, apothecary, etc).
  
• With the terminator models in there, they're not going to Sweep, but will often win combat on the charge given how hard they hit. My hope is that with pre-charge shooting now capping two or three models - vs the one to zero models it usually caps for me - there will be few enough models remaining that the Librarian + Apothecary power weapon swings (both with WS5) can clean them out at I5, or reduce them so far that their attacks back are trivial and my power fist + vanilla swings will clean em out.
  
• Worst case for me I rout them, they flee, then rally and pump me full of bullets. Hopefully I can position my other units to keep them running, but that's a plan that likely won't always work, of course.
  
• With so few models - two fewer than usual for the VV - an exploded LR and follow-up anti-tank fire will leave the Librarian by his lonesome. This always happens though; by this point he's usually deep enough that he's going to cause them some problems.
  

There's a tournie coming up, so with some list shuffling I may drop the TDA libby back in the case in favor of my Mephiston counts-as; he'd be hugging the LR's behind to get in close enough for his grim fandango, but that's not yet decided.

 

I too have wanted to try plas pistols out for a long time now, and I was feeling cheeky so now's the time. I've always been a proponent of field-testing, after all. ;)

[Bannus]

Which is worse?

 

1) The risk of losing a Vanguard Vet to an overheat when spamming plasma pistols

 

2) The risk of losing a Vanguard Vet to close combat

 

Is it really that much of a risk to lose one to an ovrheat before the assault and assault fewer dangerous enemies vs. having to assault more enemies and lose him close combat and then some?

[thade]

Which is worse?

 

1) The risk of losing a Vanguard Vet to an overheat when spamming plasma pistols

 

2) The risk of losing a Vanguard Vet to close combat

 

Is it really that much of a risk to lose one to an ovrheat before the assault and assault fewer dangerous enemies vs. having to assault more enemies and lose him close combat and then some?

My gut tells me that the latter is a more likely manner of losing a model. The Vets (in my list) will have 3+/4+ versus Gets Hot!, which is one wound; later, in the assault, there will be (potentially many) more wounds they'll have to save, not all of which will allow saves at all.

 

This unit will hit hard if I can get the charge. They definitely won't receive a charge very well. I think that's the biggest issue with these guys.

[Bannus]

This unit will hit hard if I can get the charge. They definitely won't receive a charge very well. I think that's the biggest issue with these guys.

Absolutely. I should also add the unit in question is equipped w/jump packs.

[thade]

My vanguard with PP won't have Jump Packs; having JPs is a dramatic increase in mobility will will definitely assist in them getting that charge they need (and leveraging their pistols beforehand). A Land Raider can have a similar effect. Weird trade-off...either they're jumping and will potentially take fire before getting the charge, or the LR will get popped prematurely and they'll take losses before getting the charge...or get charged themselves.

[Ming]

Hmmmm..freakin hot plahzmah.

 

Certainly Vanguard can benefit from the plasma. Shoot the transport, kill the survivors. Have to think about a common occurrence: Razorspam and short squads.

 

5 Vanguard each with a PP and one with PF or TH should be enough to wreck a razorback in the shooting phase and make the survivors stand in the debris/crater, or exit (5 shots, 3 to hit, 4+ to effect). Then you get to charge the 5 survivors with your 5, huge number of attacks at I5S5. Should be able to finish off a whole unit in one turn. If the shooting fails you can always charge the vehicle anyways. If you have the apothecary and librarian nearby, you might be able to bubble up some cover saves and FNP for the opponents turn. In theory, your might be able to rinse-repeat this as many as 3 or 4 times in a game...Problem is starting the chain reaction at the optimal moment. Jump packs might be required, or a landraider/assault vehicle (BA Chickenhawk).

[Destaro]

Hmm, have you considered putting Plasma Pistols on your abalative as-is models and in place of your Storm Shield models? 15 points seems steep since a power weapon/storm shield costs the same, but with 3+/4+, it appears relatively safe to shoot the pistols and you aren't getting as much use out of the storm shields anyway since the unit is riding around in a Land Raider. Plus, you said the unit wasn't designed to take a charge. If that's the case, then the pistols are essentially one attack, 11 initiative, Str 7 "power weapons" with 12 inch range. Have you considered something like this:

 

6 Vanguard Veterans

PF

PP (x4)

Sgt:

PW -

Total=230

 

You have a PF and PW to clean out any survivors and your PP guys are still ablative wounds. An enemy unit that would really hurt you without Storm Shields should be less threatening after 4 Plasma Shots. Thoughts?

[Bannus]

That is the theory my friend operates under: Nothing is much of a threat after being bathed in plasma.

[thade]

SO as promised, I tried them out last night in an 1850 "tournie practice match". I brought a cheeky list (Meph, two mounted tac squads, a small sternguard, a ML dev team, two apothecaries - one in TDA - and a six man Vanguard in a LRC, PF+PP, 4*PP, one vanilla guy that took an early fall for the team) and my opponent brought a hard Chaos list full of cult marines which he was very familiar with.

 

I got four kill points; he got like...eight? Nine? He killed everything in my army except for five Devastators, my apothecaries, one extremely resilient tactical sergeant (who threw down with a Greater Demon, put two wounds on it over six full assault phases, and managed to escape), and my Vanguard. It was awful. I mean, I knew I was going to do terribly when I pushed far forward and failed to pop his LR, Mephiston whiffing entirely as he attempted to open it up (after I missed with my melta). It was my worst game with Meph ever. Failing to open the LR meant that the Bezerker squad inside could hop out and charge my tacticals, letting his Nurglized Demon Prince lock Meph down for two turns (again, I kept whiffing, so by the time I managed to take out the DP with Meph, his Chosen were already in position to melta his face off).

 

It was rough. That said, Meph got one of my KP. The other three were earned by the Vanguard.

 

They disembarked (allowing the LR to go and try to help the rest of my force which was getting its butt kicked) charged and took down an Obliterator cult. Plasma on the way in did very little, but my opponent was very good at rolling those 5++'s. One nice thing that I'm not used to is the sheer volume of swings the Vanguard gets on the charge in when they don't have Lit Claws...the four plasma pistol guys each put down four swings a piece, three each in later rounds..so many swings. They won that war of attrition against those Chaos-y terminator/techmarine abominations, got 6s for consolidate and terrain movement, popped a Rhino with plasma, then charged the Plague Marines inside and kicked the crap out of them.

 

While I did very poorly over all (I deployed carelessly, and I kind of knew it; should've pulled back a bit so my tacticals didn't get killed in a five assault phase tar pit), I'm very pleased with this trial run on Team Gets Hot! I'm considering some shifts in this new list (dropping the Devs, going with a rhino-mounted assault squad like I used to, shifting around some points, etc.) that will allow me to take another model or two in the Vanguard and possibly throw a power weapon or two in there. In the past I've been very pleased with the sheer volume of swings I get with the pistol/chainswords. Alternatively, if I have enough, I'm going to throw a power armored captain in with the Rhino teams so he can help out with those pesky melee tarpits. Not sure what I'd give him for a weapon...but odds are high I'll give him an infernus or plasma pistol. ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I will both concede and point out the VV Sangria is quite different.

The issue with gets hot! is somewhat solved.

Furious charge is very powerful on a decent assault unit.

 

I'm not sure I like it on VV Vanilla though.... :wacko:

[Brother Valerius]

To be honest, I don't think there is an issue with Gets Hot in the first place. If you throw 5 plasma pistols into your unit, and they shoot 6 times in the game (a generous estimate, considering you may well be locked in combat for at least one shooting phase, and there's no guarantee that the game gets 6 turns anyway, let alone being in 12" range every turn), you will lose 1.66 marines, on average, even without FNP. Big whoop, you lost one marine. I don't consider that a big loss, considering that in those same 6 turns of shooting you did (on average, vs MEQ) 16.66 wounds which may not be able to be saved at all, and deny FNP if it's there. 1 wound for 16 wounds is a fair trade any day of the week, in my book.

 

The real issue I think exists with plasma pistols is that they're awfully expensive for what they do. Worth it? Possibly, but undeniably costly. That is the real issue, not Gets Hot.

[Arikel]

Cost is the reason I mentioned the 10 man assault squad with triple plasma, which is roughly equivalent to a 5-6 man vanguard where almost every man has a plasma gun. Whether the loss of the two plasma shots is made up for by the extra survivability of the squad in general and additional basic melee attacks is another matter(31(4pw) on the charge vs 20(4pw) for a 5 man vanguard, assuming 1 power wep on the sarge and chainswords for each other dude). The squad also has the option to have packs or drop them and you get a rhino/razorback added to your list, and they'll still fit into a landraider with an ic or two and the extra rhino chassis can be used by someone else.

 

In any case I always love to see how your melee marines turn out thade, always loved the idea of vanguard myself, and have considered dropping money on the BA codex to fiddle with, partly inspired by you. I finally got to use my own 6 man vanguard in a couple fights, as my friends have grown their armies to where i can fit them in my list, and they're a blast to see in action.