Riflemen eclipsed by Autolas Preds

[Deschenus Maximus]

Been thinking about this for a few days, and it seems pretty clear to me that Riflemen are not up to par in BA armies compared to preds with las sponsons. While being slightly cheaper and having linked weapons is nice, I don't feel like that really compensates for the S9-Ap2 and the AV13, and the ability to redeploy up to 18 inches that the pred has. Not to say that riflemen are always a worst choice (if you have a bunch of lascannons elsewhere in the list, twin ACs might be better than more las), but on a straight up comparison, it's pretty hard to ignore the advantages of the pred.

 

What do you guys think?

[appiah4]

Lascannon Missile Launcher dread has the best of both I think, I really like that configuration. I just wish its Missile Launcher was a Cyclone..

[Enzephalon]

I never fielded a Riflemen yet, but I think the model just looks cool. Against certain lists it may shine and I really want to play one some time, just because no one else seems to use them (just like my snipers).

 

Also you could field an army consisting of 9 dreads ( Furioso, DC, Riflemen) under 2000 points which is crazy cool. ^^

It's a shame that I will probably never have the models to try that out.

[Taranis]

I fielded 8 dreadnoughts at 1750 points last weekenden in 5 battles. 3 were rifleman dreadnoughts. Too low strength and too high ap. Looks cool but I was disappointed. What's the price difference?

[toaae]

Auto/las Pred is 135. Rifleman Dread is 120 (I wouldn't waste EA on it).

[AbusePuppy]

Autolas gains quite a bit in comparison to normal SM, but there are still a number of factors to consider. AV is something of a wash- Dreads are 12 on the sides, but Pred is 13 on the front. Mobility is also roughly even- the Pred can move faster if it needs to, but the Dread will never get stuck for the rest of the game on a bad roll.

 

Cover and profile are one of the big issues- a Predator is a much larger target than a Dreadnought is and will have a lot more trouble getting cover saves than a Dreadnought will, Sanguine Shield aside. There is also the important factor of weapon mountings to consider; a Dreadnought that stands behind a Rhino/Razorback can easily fire over the tops of the hull at the enemy, whereas a Predator that uses such tactics will find itself unable to utilize its primary armaments.

 

On the other hand, the raw firepower of the Predator is pretty clearly superior against nearly all targets and its price is only slightly higher. As a general rule, I might default to the Autolas over the Rifleman, but there are certainly reasons to take both in the army, so the decision isn't a given either way.

[Volcatus]

The Rifleman shines in it's role: taking out targets Av12 and less. Land Speeder squadrons are a good example of a prime target.

 

There is an additional benefit to the Rifleman that is sometimes overlooked. They can enter the upper levels of ruins, gaining a very nice field of fire, and sometimes cover depending on the terrain piece.

 

The Pred has a clear advantage in redeployment though, as it can zoom where it's needed. Tank shocking is not to be overlooked as well.

 

Ultimately it all comes down to the list, however, and matching the right choice for the army as a whole.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Puppy: At longer ranges, I find that the front armour of the pred is much more useful than the superior side armour of the dread. It's not always possible to hide the side armour of the pred, but I would say it is very doable in most instances. As for mobility, really there's very little reason why you would chance difficult terrain tests with the pred unless you play on boards that are absolutely jam-packed with terrain. When I play on boards that follow the BRB-recommended percentage of terrain (25%), its very, very rare that I take terrain tests with my autolas(es).

 

I'll give you the point about cover, but if one really really wanted to, you could plop down a rhino in front of the pred in the same alignement and you'd get a cover save at least in your front arc.

 

Finally, I concur that the Riflemen isn't always going to be inferior, as some list need them more than autolases (i.e. lasplas razorspam), but I think it's fair to say that in general, the autolas pred will be more useful in a greater amount of lists.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Autolas gains quite a bit in comparison to normal SM, but there are still a number of factors to consider. AV is something of a wash- Dreads are 12 on the sides, but Pred is 13 on the front. Mobility is also roughly even- the Pred can move faster if it needs to, but the Dread will never get stuck for the rest of the game on a bad roll.

 

Cover and profile are one of the big issues- a Predator is a much larger target than a Dreadnought is and will have a lot more trouble getting cover saves than a Dreadnought will, Sanguine Shield aside. There is also the important factor of weapon mountings to consider; a Dreadnought that stands behind a Rhino/Razorback can easily fire over the tops of the hull at the enemy, whereas a Predator that uses such tactics will find itself unable to utilize its primary armaments.

 

Actually anything that forces a dangerous test can halt a dreadnought terrain thats not dangerous just cant :lol: This is only really important when you end up getting a desperate wolfy player throw Murderous Hurricane at your dreadnought at the last second.

 

 

The Pred can actually box in behind a rhino so long as they are both angled towards thier target bumper to now. The turret is high enough to see over and the sponsons are out far enough to see around. Though it does have a minimum range in this formation.

[AbusePuppy]

Not many people play with actual Dangerous Terrain, so the danger of being immobilized on some Difficult is the main threat there for vehicles. And if your wolfy friends aren't taking Living Lighting on all their dudes, they're Doing It Wrong. :)

 

If the enemy is in just the right position a Pred can fire around a Rhino... unless you have multiple Rhinos forming a "wall," the way most mech armies do, or if they're too close (as you note), or if the target is too small, etc, etc. End result, a Dread is better able to maintain cover while keeping its guns active; whether you think this is enough of an incentive to use them over the AutoLas's superior firepower, front armor, and mobility is up to you.

 

(Also, the ability to climb into ruins, as noted earlier in the thread, should not be overlooked. Ruins make excellent vantage points and will often give you cover as well as protecting you from those annoying units that assault you to tie you up in combat.)

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Completely agreed but there are definitely merits to both *thumbs up*

 

There are also more and more things causing Dangerous Terrain now.

 

Hurricane, Nightspinner, Santuary and Im thinking theres more but yeah cant think. Working :3