Sir Blayse Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Anyone have any luck against Grey knights using JP/DoA Angels? Opponent was running Crowe, with Terminators and Purifers. All had Halberds, so they hit first and with Hammerhand or CF made short work of any assaults. Attempted to shoot them up with the melta's, but just not able to kill enough of them. My Libby had Unleash Rage and Shield, but I'm thinking Blood Lance would of been a bit better. Not trying to rebuild list to deal with Knights, just wondering if anyone has any useful tips. Only thing I can come up with is trying to make opponent go through cover to try and get to my units and try and keep them at a distance. Though 12" doesn't give you much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Knowing your list would help. Crowe, Purifiers & Terminators means the model count should be pitiful on his behalf. So I don't see why you can't kill enough of them. Does he have Terminators or Paladins? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMordha Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Just had a game a few days ago, my opponent was using daemon hunters codex, haven't played against the GK codex yet, so I'm not sure of the differences. My assault marines made short work of the storm troopers, but the Gk took out most of them, none were a match for my DC with dreadnought (blood talons) in drop pods. I tore the GK apart. She had nothing left on the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Multicharges are basically your best friend. Don't deep strike (because that will probably wreck you), start on the board. The will have a very limited window to shoot you and FNP will shrug off most of the wounds. Purifiers will be annoying to fight if they all have Halberds, but five man squads you can overwhelm pretty easily. Terminators with Halberds will likewise be annoying, but there will be so few of them that you can probably just swamp them in attacks. Keep your Libby alive to shut down their psychic powers; powers can vary, but I'd stick to Shield and Unleash. Make sure you are the one making assaults, not him- you'll want to end somewhere just over 12" from him, which is a very important distance, as it means he can't really get away from you with his 6" move on his turn, but also can't get close enough to assault you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 AbusePuppy's advice is sound. Deepstriking against GKs is suicide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMordha Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 AbusePuppy's advice is sound. Deepstriking against GKs is suicide. Why, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 AbusePuppy's advice is sound. Deepstriking against GKs is suicide. Why, Warp Quake, grey knight strike squads and interceptor squads have it and when its successfully cast any deepstrikinunit that land within 12" of the caster AUTOMATICALLY suffers a deepstrike mishap. That's why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 AbusePuppy's advice is sound. Deepstriking against GKs is suicide. Why, Warp Quake, grey knight strike squads and interceptor squads have it and when its successfully cast any deepstrikinunit that land within 12" of the caster AUTOMATICALLY suffers a deepstrike mishap. That's why. Even if you land 12-18" away, ie outside warp quake but within next turn assault range, they will shoot the crap out of you with stormbolters and psycannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Perhaps more importantly, you don't dictate the charge/assaults. As Abusepuppy said, getting multi-charges off on GK squads is crucial for jumper BA, and you're not going to be doing that if you deep strike in. @Morollan - They'll probably only have one round of shooting against you, and you're still getting 3+/FNP against Storm Bolters and Psycannon, nothing really to worry about Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 @Morollan - They'll probably only have one round of shooting against you, and you're still getting 3+/FNP against Storm Bolters and Psycannon, nothing really to worry about Each GK squad that is able to open fire on you is likely to cause a couple of deaths per turn even with FNP - more if they score any rending hits with the psycannons. If you intend to assault them next turn you will not be able to afford to lose that many models when attacking I6 troops who all have power weapons. Plus you're not guaranteed to only have one turn of firing as you need to be lucky with the scatter dice to land within 18" if you plan on avoiding the warp quake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Assuming they're stationary, a full squad of GK averages two kills if you have FNP. (You should still be able to manage cover against them, which means Rends are not nearly so deadly.) Strike Squads will very rarely be equipped with Halberds- if they are, pump the fist, because it's a waste of points on models with only one attack. A five-strong squad of Purifiers doesn't put out enough attacks to be truly crippling to a focused assault- remember, two of those guys will have no NFW because they trade it out when they pick up a Psycannon, so you're generally looking at ~1.5 kills @ I6 when you charge them- and then you drown them in attacks. A ten-strong squad is sometimes used, but they are expensive, clocking in at close to 400pts with their transport. Charge them with two or three ASM squads and you will take casualties, but still wreck them in the end. Luck of the dice when DSing is one of the many reasons you shouldn't use it as a tactic against them. Starting on the board is more reliable, more flexible, and generally just a superior option in every way against them- I might DS a single squad to handle some of their backfield threats, but even that would be rare. It is critical as BA to get the charge off on other armies with melee capacity; Orks, Tyranids, GK, etc, can all do a lot of damage to you if you let them dictate charges. Ensuring that you make the decision when they happen, not the enemy, is one of the most important parts of playing jumper BA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2850981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMordha Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 AbusePuppy's advice is sound. Deepstriking against GKs is suicide. Why, Warp Quake, grey knight strike squads and interceptor squads have it and when its successfully cast any deepstrikinunit that land within 12" of the caster AUTOMATICALLY suffers a deepstrike mishap. That's why. Is that in the new GK codex, I don't remember it in daemon hunters Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I think it's safe to assume that everyone is talking about the GK codex and not the old DH one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Ok this is my list. Game was at 1000 points. Libby, Honour Guard w/ Thunderhammer and Melta's- all with JP's. Assault Squad w/PF, Melta, Melta. Assualt Squad w/PF, Melta, Melta. Sang. Priest w/JP. Sang. Preist w/JP. Opponent was: Crowe 5 Terminators, with Halberds. 8-10 Purifiers, with Halberds. ( not sure exact number.) Rhino 8-10 Purifiers, with Halberds. Rhino Due to Int 6 and Force weapons, Sang. Priest were pretty much useless. Charging in was suicide. Only thing useful was melta's, but even those only do minor dent. ( Some of that from some bad dice rolls.) Losing half a squad when you charge in does not do too well. Not sure how the mathhammer should of worked out on that but it was not good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Well the Terminators should be easy to wipe out if you focus fire them with the Honour Guard and an Assault Squad with Meltaguns and Bolt Pistols. You are going to have to use your mobility to strip away his. Use your Meltaguns to pop Rhinos and then engineer a 2v1 charge on the Purifiers. This match up is a perfect example of why DoA BA lists need Vanguard Squads with at least 4 Storm Shields Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I think it's safe to say we will have to rebuild our lists to deal effectively with Grey Knights. An effective tool is the Vindicator as a good shot can seriously hurt Paladins or GKT - both of these units are typically foot slogging so the S10 AP2 large blast cannot be ignored. A psychic hood is a must have. Revisiting BA I also think Sternguard is a good choice, especially if you load up on meltaguns and combi meltas. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 My mech list should not have any real trouble with heavy bolter, lascannon, and assault cannon spam to shoot a lot of holes in his stuff. But we don't get to pick our opponents, just our list and the points. Against most other matchups the DoA wrecks them. I guess I could do another HG and Libby with point increase. But you have to hope that you roll well and drop his guys with the shots. At 12" it guarantees a next turn assault. Charging in after shooting might help, but that I6 is rough to deal with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Been using 2 Vindicators since the book came out. Av13 Fast S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance is too good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Vindis force Grey Knights to play defensively versus aggressively. They should be shielded to give them cover versus GK return fire. Two is a lot better than one and for the points it's well worth it. Versus front armor psycannons need to roll a six to penetrate so that in and of itself is a decent natural defense. I'm thinking VV with SS and cc weapons that ignore armor saves are good as well. I'd focus first on removing easier targets such as Strike squads then combine units to tag the harder units such as GKT and Paladins... Blast them with as many meltas as possible before charging in. Some decent long range AT could go a long ways versus their armor. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Ok this is my list. Game was at 1000 points. Libby, Honour Guard w/ Thunderhammer and Melta's- all with JP's. Assault Squad w/PF, Melta, Melta. Assualt Squad w/PF, Melta, Melta. Sang. Priest w/JP. Sang. Preist w/JP. Opponent was: Crowe 5 Terminators, with Halberds. 8-10 Purifiers, with Halberds. ( not sure exact number.) Rhino 8-10 Purifiers, with Halberds. Rhino Due to Int 6 and Force weapons, Sang. Priest were pretty much useless. Charging in was suicide. Only thing useful was melta's, but even those only do minor dent. ( Some of that from some bad dice rolls.) Losing half a squad when you charge in does not do too well. Not sure how the mathhammer should of worked out on that but it was not good. You could probably afford to drop one of those Priests, although I'm not entirely sure where you'd spend the points. Infernus Pistols for the sarges, maybe? Two bubbles is generally sufficient at 1000pts, in any case. If you could squeeze out a couple more points you could add a third half-strength ASM squad. (I am assuming he gave his Purifiers two or four Psycannons each, as appropriate.) So yes, he has you beat on pure melee ability- however, you have him beat on mobility and survivability. If it's a KP mission, you basically want to take out Crowe and the Rhinos and then laugh at him, because he then has to kill practically your entire force to win. If it's objectives, try and bait him into separating his squads- with your 12" move-and-shoot, you're at an advantage there, so try and keep him running around. As soon as you can get one of his squads isolated, charge it with both ASM squads. He'll strike first and get some wounds in (as much as possible make it so he has to divide attacks between the squads), but he's no tougher than regular Marines, so you will be able to put a ton of wounds onto him and kill most of the squad. Your preference is probably for jumping the Terminators, since they do less damage when you charge them, but if it's gotta be the Purifiers, then you do it anyways. Don't freak out over those I6 power weapons. Yes, they're dangerous and yes, they will cause damage, but you have a superior ability to focus your strength. Fire all guns, charge in, and you'll find that you're taking significantly fewer casualties than you might assume. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Due to Int 6 and Force weapons, Sang. Priest were pretty much useless. Charging in was suicide. Only thing useful was melta's, but even those only do minor dent. ( Some of that from some bad dice rolls.) Losing half a squad when you charge in does not do too well. Not sure how the mathhammer should of worked out on that but it was not good. The SP at least helps you weather their shooting phases, even if the FNP's no use in assault. Unfortunately, you should expect to lose about 4 of your squad to their halberds but you should kill about 5 of them in return plus a couple with your shooting, assuming you don't have to pop them out of the Rhino in that same turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I think it's safe to say we will have to rebuild our lists to deal effectively with Grey Knights. An effective tool is the Vindicator as a good shot can seriously hurt Paladins or GKT - both of these units are typically foot slogging so the S10 AP2 large blast cannot be ignored. A psychic hood is a must have. Revisiting BA I also think Sternguard is a good choice, especially if you load up on meltaguns and combi meltas. G :) You're not advocating Vindicators for jumper based lists, right ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 why not? I've done it. Jumpers hide behind the Vindicators until its time to charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Lem Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 You're not advocating Vindicators for jumper based lists, right ? Why not? They're the same speed. :) :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 why not? I've done it. Jumpers hide behind the Vindicators until its time to charge. It might be that people have the idea stuck in their head that Jumper Armies Have to deep strike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236527-blood-angels-vs-grey-knights/#findComment-2851656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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