Blood Angels vs. Grey Knights

[JamesI]

why not? I've done it. Jumpers hide behind the Vindicators until its time to charge.

 

It might be that people have the idea stuck in their head that Jumper Armies Have to deep strike.

If you plan on deepstriking, Vindicators are not a great idea. But I rarely deepstrike more than whatever squad Dante is attached to.

[Bartali]

why not? I've done it. Jumpers hide behind the Vindicators until its time to charge.

 

It might be that people have the idea stuck in their head that Jumper Armies Have to deep strike.

 

Not at all. I'm very much of the opinion that DoA is an option, rather than a deployment style

 

Just questioning the wisdom of firing a S10 AP2 pie plate that can scatter when you're playing an assault based jumper list without Inv saves.

[JamesI]

why not? I've done it. Jumpers hide behind the Vindicators until its time to charge.

 

It might be that people have the idea stuck in their head that Jumper Armies Have to deep strike.

 

Not at all. I'm very much of the opinion that DoA is an option, rather than a deployment style

 

Just questioning the wisdom of firing a S10 AP2 pie plate that can scatter when you're playing an assault based jumper list without Inv saves.

when you do it, you realize its not that big a deal. Enemy fire will focus on the Vindis first, leaving the jumpers unscathed and its not that hard to find areas to shoot where the jumpers aren't at risk of scatter.

 

I spent nearly a year running 2 Vindicators in a jump heavy list before I decided to go no vehilces. In that time I never once scatter a shot onto my own guys. Lots of scatters into nothing, but never lost a model to my own Vindicator.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

... Enemy fire will focus on the Vindis first, leaving the jumpers unscathed...

 

This is the bulk of it I think. The Vindis make excellent moving cover and LOS blockers. Which if left alone can Blast the heck out of the sort of tough units jump heavy armies can have trouble against. If they get off a few shots great. If they dont they really werent all the expensive for what you got out of them anyway.

 

Its a whole heck of alot of pressure to put on your opponent.

[JamesI]

... Enemy fire will focus on the Vindis first, leaving the jumpers unscathed...

 

This is the bulk of it I think. The Vindis make excellent moving cover and LOS blockers. Which if left alone can Blast the heck out of the sort of tough units jump heavy armies can have trouble against. If they get off a few shots great. If they dont they really werent all the expensive for what you got out of them anyway.

 

Its a whole heck of alot of pressure to put on your opponent.

Yep. A list of 2-3 jumpy units, a RAzorback unit, 2 Vindis and some attack bikes. Lots of pressure to deal with off the bat. Add in a shield Libby to keep the Vindis alive.

 

Man, maybe I should go back to running that list again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Grey Knight players are scared to death of Vindis. Taking two is more than twice as good in my opinion. I am currently working on a shooty version of BA and it will definitely feature two Vindis.

 

G :huh:

[AbusePuppy]

Good GK armies will laugh off a Vindicator like a bad joke. They have the mobility to break its side armor and the firepower to make sure they can get through, and Psyflemen (as well as Rending) mean even its front armor is hardly safe from them. Furthermore their similar ranges ensures that the Vindi is not going to get a lot of shots off before they can disable it.

 

Vindicators are no more effective against GK than they are against most MEQ armies- which is to say, generally underwhelming. If you've done well with them then congratulations, but killing 1-2 Marines or inflicting a single damage result on a vehicle just is not that big a deal for me.

[Leonaides]

Vindicators are no more effective against GK than they are against most MEQ armies- which is to say, bloody lethal. If you've done well with them then congratulations, but killing 1-2 Marines or inflicting a single damage result on a vehicle just is not that big a deal for me.

Fixed that for you :lol:

 

Vindi's are deadly to any and all marine armies. Sure, you might get a scattered shot, but your opponent cannot afford to assume that you will miss completely. He absolutely has to stop that vehicle from shooting - which means you get to dictate play. If you're dictating play, then you are in control of the battlefield. If you are incontrol of the battlefield, you should be able to win (assuming equal amounts of luck on both sides).

 

Interestingly, the chances of a vindi missing its preferred target completely are close enough to 1-in-3 as makes no odds. So, at worst, its as good as a lascannon. At best - its as good, if not better, as 10 lascannons.

 

Now tell me again how a vindi isnt effective against GK's?

[Vilicate]

Interestingly, the chances of a vindi missing its preferred target completely are close enough to 1-in-3 as makes no odds. So, at worst, its as good as a lascannon. At best - its as good, if not better, as 10 lascannons.

 

Now tell me again how a vindi isnt effective against GK's?

 

When your models are properly spread out, and getting a cover save (not very difficult), it's going to hit 4-5, and you'll save half of those. Do the math. Plus, it's only one weapon.

[Bartali]

What Vilicate said.

 

In addition, if you're running Vindies in the heavy slot, you're going to be relying on Melta from jumpers to pop transports. Firing a large blast on to a disembarked squad when your jumpers are 6" away is not a good idea.

[JamesI]

What Vilicate said.

 

In addition, if you're running Vindies in the heavy slot, you're going to be relying on Melta from jumpers to pop transports. Firing a large blast on to a disembarked squad when your jumpers are 6" away is not a good idea.

Not necessarily. I've run lists with Vindis and attack bikes to kill tanks or a combi-pred.

 

Everything Vilicate said is true. Properly spread out, at best you catch 5, and almost always in cover. Vindis are not always the best choice, but they are not as ineffective as some are saying.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just the psychological deterrent is something to keep GK on the defensive - which is what this thread is about. I fought a BT army last weekend in the Ard boys that had one Vindi. I'd like to think I am an okay GK player. It's not like necessarily every turn you can focus everything on the Vindi(s) and a good opponent will capitalize on that aspect. I think it's well worth the pints... Hmmmm - points.

 

:wacko:

[SamaNagol]

Vindicators and Attack Bikes are like fish and chips, bangers and mash, beer and crisps. A perfect pairing.

[Sir Blayse]

I'm not going to say that vindi's aren't the bee's knees. But, I just don't see how I can fit 2 into a list at a 1000 points. Even if I run a third RAS instead of HG. If I drop the HG and a priest, maybe... but, now I'm really lower in manpower. Now against the other possible matchups I'll have other issues with Guard and Eldar forces. Plus, Vindi's don't really go in my DoA lists.

 

 

After running the numbers I'm pretty sure the Purifiers were ran at ten men, now that I've checked some of the numbers. Also, in Objective games the opponent has me out trooped. Terminators and Purifers are all going to be troop choices. Crowe make that so. Doesn't matter if he is alive or dead as far as I can tell.

 

I'm still not sure how well I can pull off a massive multi-charge, but if I can that seems to be the only strategy. But, it comes down to the mathhammer and a little luck. In the last battle, opponent ended up screening his guys behind vehicles.

 

If one squad of RAS and priest assault into one squad of Purifiers, then I come up with these results. (Sgt has PF)

GK kill 6 to 7 RAS with RAS on the charge. Int 6 and Cleansing Fire are lethal even when assaulted. But, the fewer attacks do help.

BA on their Int 5 and 1 manage to kill 2 to 3 GK's with their reduced number. The PF nearly equals the remaining squads kills.

 

If 2 RAS and 2 Priest do the same battle then:

GK kill the same. Attacks go into one squad to reduce later effectiveness.

BA get a total of 6 to 7 kills back. ( Fists actually made big difference here.)

 

The problem is now that the opponent will be going next and still has me locked in combat. He also still has a second squad to add to the fight, this squad and the others will be striking first again. Now both of my troop squads are wasted, and probably didn't get a chance to hit back.

 

Due to his Terminators also having Halberds, means my HG will not be able to assault them and win. If I can outmanuever my opponent for a turn or two by using terrain, I might be able to shoot a few of them down to lower the numbers, but it is risky and could backfire. This would depend on my opponent not being able to get through terrain and make his assaults and being able to fall back. Not sure how well that would go in game though. Makes placing terrain very important.

 

After reviewing the numbers it might be a better idea to just run another RAS instead of HG or switch the HG to Plasma and hope that I can wreck a enemy unit before the charge.

[SamaNagol]

Some times you are hard stretched to beat another codex using a limited selection from your own codex.

 

I don't think a small DoA list can easily handle a 25 man all Halberd GK list head on. You'd need to shoot that list from far and outmanoeuvre it. And a DoA list just doesn't possess enough shooting to do so.

[Sir Blayse]

Well, the good thing about this is that I may not even have to play my DoA against the GK during this league again. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

Let's just hope that is the case.

[Zid]

I'd honestly foot slog em into position then strike; especially if your 100% jump packs.

 

Issue is, like many said, Strike Squads/Intercepters make it stupid hard to play a deep striking army against them. Honestly I feel the power was poorly thought out (Drop pod armies, etc.), but it gives DoA armies the bird.

 

That being said, a mixed mechanized DoA army would be a good counter. Like many said, vindis, slog your jumpers, and some psychic hoods would be a good counter. I personally like Raven Rush armies with jumpers, but thats me.

 

You can beat GK as all jumpers, just gotta play smart and not deep strike into their midst!

[Morollan]

If one squad of RAS and priest assault into one squad of Purifiers, then I come up with these results. (Sgt has PF)

GK kill 6 to 7 RAS with RAS on the charge. Int 6 and Cleansing Fire are lethal even when assaulted. But, the fewer attacks do help.

BA on their Int 5 and 1 manage to kill 2 to 3 GK's with their reduced number. The PF nearly equals the remaining squads kills.

 

I think you're overestimating the casualties. As I said before you should take out 2 with shooting and only the models with halberds get to hit first and the ones with psycannons no longer have a force weapon. So assume 6 purifiers with 2 attacks each hitting on 4's is obviously 6 hits. You're assuming Cleansing Flame but Hammerhand is actually more effective. You do however have a psychic hood so it's 50/50 whether it works. Let's assume it does and you are therefore wounding on 3's/ That's still only 4 casualties before you fight back with 16 attacks (assuming you want to keep the meltas alive, otherwise it's 18), hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's with a 3+ save is 3.55 casualties. The psycannon guys fight back but don't cause any damage due to 3+/FNP then your fist goes with 3 attacks, causing 1.25 wounds. We'll be generous and round up so 3.55 + 1.25 = 5 casualties. You win the combat by 1, causing an armour save due to Fearless, and the GK's are down to 3 men compared to your 6. So they're not as bad as you might think.

[Sir Blayse]

If one squad of RAS and priest assault into one squad of Purifiers, then I come up with these results. (Sgt has PF)

GK kill 6 to 7 RAS with RAS on the charge. Int 6 and Cleansing Fire are lethal even when assaulted. But, the fewer attacks do help.

BA on their Int 5 and 1 manage to kill 2 to 3 GK's with their reduced number. The PF nearly equals the remaining squads kills.

 

I think you're overestimating the casualties. As I said before you should take out 2 with shooting and only the models with halberds get to hit first and the ones with psycannons no longer have a force weapon. So assume 6 purifiers with 2 attacks each hitting on 4's is obviously 6 hits. You're assuming Cleansing Flame but Hammerhand is actually more effective. You do however have a psychic hood so it's 50/50 whether it works. Let's assume it does and you are therefore wounding on 3's/ That's still only 4 casualties before you fight back with 16 attacks (assuming you want to keep the meltas alive, otherwise it's 18), hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's with a 3+ save is 3.55 casualties. The psycannon guys fight back but don't cause any damage due to 3+/FNP then your fist goes with 3 attacks, causing 1.25 wounds. We'll be generous and round up so 3.55 + 1.25 = 5 casualties. You win the combat by 1, causing an armour save due to Fearless, and the GK's are down to 3 men compared to your 6. So they're not as bad as you might think.

 

I'm known for my ability to roll "1's" like crazy. I'd really see 1 to shooting as more likely. I'm pretty sure he only had 2 Psycannons in a squad and those would be the models removed before an assault. Cleansing Flame is the Purifiers power, Hammerhand is on the Terminators. He did not run any Strike Squads. Also, it is not possible to get a turn one assault, so no matter how I deploy or moved on my turn he will have a chance to shoot with those psycannons and SB's. Here is the only real advantage we have and I only lose one or two in his shooting. That doesn't count the Psybolt ammo sb's from the Rhinos shooting me either. Also, against GK we have to be careful with our shooting. It is very possible that we might manage to kill say 3 in our pre-assault shooting and have the opponent remove enough to deny us our charge. This would be catastrophic. I agree with most of your above, it is possible that the above good happened pretty close to what you have above, but CF is deadlier than you might think. It is striking everyone of my guys, wounding several... FNP does give us an edge, but he will be killing 1 or 2 with it. Hammerhand is just terrible for us, but I'd hope to save the Terminators for last, no since hitting them first and getting multi-charged by the purifiers.

 

Also, as before even if we manage to stay locked in with the GK, then next turn he will still be locked in and can multi-charge with his other Purifiers or Terminators.

[AbusePuppy]

Fixed that for you :wacko:

 

More like ruined, brah.

 

Vindi's are deadly to any and all marine armies. Sure, you might get a scattered shot, but your opponent cannot afford to assume that you will miss completely. He absolutely has to stop that vehicle from shooting - which means you get to dictate play. If you're dictating play, then you are in control of the battlefield. If you are incontrol of the battlefield, you should be able to win (assuming equal amounts of luck on both sides).

 

Interestingly, the chances of a vindi missing its preferred target completely are close enough to 1-in-3 as makes no odds. So, at worst, its as good as a lascannon. At best - its as good, if not better, as 10 lascannons.

 

Now tell me again how a vindi isnt effective against GK's?

 

Sure. First of all, they're gonna set their Psyflemen in the corners of the board, so the moment your Vindi drives out of your deployment zone, it's gonna get hammer by S8 on its side armor and spend the rest of the game doing nothing. Second, he doesn't "absolutely have" to stop the Vindi from shooting- as I've said, and others have said, and you've more or less said yourself, it will only kill 1-2 Marines most turns. Sure, you might get lucky and have him fail a bunch of saves and lose five guys, but the same thing can happen with any unit. Third, GK can easily sit in their transports and pummel your silly tank with Psycannons if they are, for some reason, concerned about it. Fourth, many GK lists run Librarians, meaning they will have 3+ cover saves, meaning your main gun is about as effective as... a heavy mortar, only less accurate and shorter ranged and more vulnerable.

 

So why WOULD they be afraid of it? Vindicators don't kill MEQs with any kind of terrible frequency unless you're playing on Planet Cueball and your opponents never mech up. TWC hate Vindicators, sure, and Grotesques do as well. So do Monoliths. But Marines? A Vindicator is nothing special against Marines, it's just a Battle Cannon with a more differenter name in an army that can't take as much advantage of it.

 

You're also assuming some pretty high rates of hit for your Vindicator, especially if the opponent is running smaller squads (which is quite common these days.) A non-twin linked large blast generally has a bit over a 50% chance of landing close enough to its original target to be effective, and most of the times it scatters it will significantly lose effectiveness compared to its original position. So while you might hit 60% of the time, one third of those shots that hit are going to only get 1-2 models, even before to-wound rolls and cover saves.

 

Better than a Lascannon? Lascannons have range. Lascannons usually come in multiples. Lascannons, as a rule, don't expose the firer to immediate danger just to be used. In short, I know Mr. Lascannon, sir, and you are no Lascannon.

 

I'm known for my ability to roll "1's" like crazy. I'd really see 1 to shooting as more likely. I'm pretty sure he only had 2 Psycannons in a squad and those would be the models removed before an assault. Cleansing Flame is the Purifiers power, Hammerhand is on the Terminators. He did not run any Strike Squads. Also, it is not possible to get a turn one assault, so no matter how I deploy or moved on my turn he will have a chance to shoot with those psycannons and SB's. Here is the only real advantage we have and I only lose one or two in his shooting. That doesn't count the Psybolt ammo sb's from the Rhinos shooting me either. Also, against GK we have to be careful with our shooting. It is very possible that we might manage to kill say 3 in our pre-assault shooting and have the opponent remove enough to deny us our charge. This would be catastrophic. I agree with most of your above, it is possible that the above good happened pretty close to what you have above, but CF is deadlier than you might think. It is striking everyone of my guys, wounding several... FNP does give us an edge, but he will be killing 1 or 2 with it. Hammerhand is just terrible for us, but I'd hope to save the Terminators for last, no since hitting them first and getting multi-charged by the purifiers.

 

Also, as before even if we manage to stay locked in with the GK, then next turn he will still be locked in and can multi-charge with his other Purifiers or Terminators.

 

Never rely on bad statistics to justify a decision. It may seem like you roll poorly/well a lot, and maybe sometimes you will, but odds are it's just your perceptual biases in action and you actually roll pretty close to the norm. You don't remember the time you rolled five sixes on armor saves because it's no different from rolling 3, 3, 4, 5, 6 to you, but you sure as hell remember the time you failed all five of your Terminators' saves.

 

Yes, if you match one Assault Squad against his Purifiers you will probably lose- that's why you send two. Not only will you have more models on the table (because ASM are cheaper than Purifiers by quite a lot), but you also have a mobility advantage, which will let you chose how and when the engagements happen. As show in the example above, you can probably edge out a win with one squad- two will be a massacre. Play to your advantages (speed, resilience), not to his (protracted combats, shooting.)

 

Purifiers have both Hammerhand and Cleansing Flame- all GK squads have two powers, Hammerhand and one other. Hammerhand can be punishing, but that's why you have your Librarian- he gives you an excellent chance of shutting it down. (On average, Cleansing Flame should inflict five wounds to the squad, of which you will save three and FNP away one, meaning you lose a single generic guy. Hammerhand is a much better deal for him, since he's striking ahead of you anyways.)

 

Charging the Terminators first will often be a better bet, since they are weaker overall, but if you have to hit the Purifiers first, do that. It's really more about targets of opportunity than anything else.

 

Regarding accidentally killing yourself out of charge range: yes, that can happen, but that's why judging that 6" distance is such an important skill. If you think he can avoid you by pulling casualties, don't shoot, but oftentimes you will be well within range to a significant number of his models and thus aren't really worried about it.

[SamaNagol]

Vindicators are versatile and effective in every role you should wish to employ them in.

 

If you roll up with AutoLas Predators and see a Genestealer list you aren't going to be getting that 135pts back

 

Why do you presume that with a movement speed of 12" you cannot adequately manoeuvre your Vindicator to get a cover save or to block LOS to the side from those immobile corner placed Dreadnoughts? Or are we actually playing on planet cueball?

[AbusePuppy]

An AutoLas will still yield about two wounds per turn against 'Stealers, so roughly the same as the Vindicator.

 

Why are the Dreads immobile? Last I checked they could move and shoot just fine. In fact, being walkers, they have the option of moving into ruins, on top of terrain, etc, without risking getting stuck. Certainly, you may be able to get cover against them, but even with cover you'll still get hammered. And expecting to block LOS, get in sufficient range (and angle, because your gun is fixed, remember) to hit the GK, and avoid exposing your side armor to them as well... well, that is a lot of conditions to fulfill. You might occasionally manage it, but that seems like a very optimistic assumption.

 

The Vindicator is middling against most infantry. Not terrible, just very underwhelming. For all it promises to be a devastating threat, it simply does not follow through on that promise most of the time. Against monstrous creatures and other multiwound targets that don't die to a single shot, it's even more lacking; yeah, you took a wound off the Trygon, good job, now it eats you. Against tanks it has a similar problem- assuming it manages to hit (hardly a guarantee), it will almost certainly penetrate, but a penetration means almost nothing to a vehicle in 5E; they still have their cover save and the pseudo-save of the damage table, so oftentimes that will only be a 1/6 chance of actually stopping them. In other words, that Vindicator will spend most of the game trying to kill a single tank.

 

Capable of hurting anything in the game? Sure. Effective at doing so? Not really. It's a specialist tank for taking out multiwound T4-5 models that can be somewhat non-bad in other roles. BA Vindicators aren't horrible, but all too often they are recommended as a knee-jerk reaction to every possible problem when they actually are a very poor fit for most strategies.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Because the Vindi is a fast vehicle it's fairly easy to keep it's front armor facing the GK gun line. It's threat is just as good as the damage it can inflict and it's fairly cheap points wise for what you get. This thread is about how to deal with Grey Knights, so keep that in mind. The predator has all the same problems as a Vindi. BA can generate their 'slug' shots using razorbacks and riflemen... Plus you have room for another tank.

 

G :P

[SamaNagol]

If you are only killing 2 models in a horde list a turn with a pie plate, you aren't shooting it properly.

 

They are very effective at hitting Land Raiders and other large foot print vehicles. They are good at hitting hordes of reasonable toughness models like Orks and Stealers. They are superb vs Paladins and TWC. They do well against vehicle squadrons.

 

That's a fair chunk of tournament level lists. I'll take that. And against DEldar popping a Raider with an Assault Cannon and then shooting the Vindicator at the unit afterwards is bliss.

[AbusePuppy]

Because the Vindi is a fast vehicle it's fairly easy to keep it's front armor facing the GK gun line. It's threat is just as good as the damage it can inflict and it's fairly cheap points wise for what you get. This thread is about how to deal with Grey Knights, so keep that in mind. The predator has all the same problems as a Vindi. BA can generate their 'slug' shots using razorbacks and riflemen... Plus you have room for another tank.

 

But you can't be facing in all directions at once, that's the point. GK can (and will, it's one of their common strategies) place a Psyfleman on both flanks of the board, which pretty much guarantees them a side shot on it, and with 12" move off their transports, it's not hard for them to put Psycannons into position, either.

 

I don't think it's a particularly good way to hurt GK; it doesn't strike at any of their weaknesses and is vulnerable to many of their most common units/tactics. You're much better off focusing on melee/mobility superiority and long-range shooting, neither of which GK can really match.

 

Predators don't suffer as much from side AV11 because they don't have to advance into midfield to use their guns- they can more safely hang back and shoot from a corner or edge, shielding themselves from the above Psyflemen and similar by simply making it impossible to get an angle on them. If the Vindicator was AV13 on the sides it would go up significantly in my opinion, but as is it's simply too easy to disable and doesn't do enough even when it's active.

 

If you are only killing 2 models in a horde list a turn with a pie plate, you aren't shooting it properly.

 

They are very effective at hitting Land Raiders and other large foot print vehicles. They are good at hitting hordes of reasonable toughness models like Orks and Stealers. They are superb vs Paladins and TWC. They do well against vehicle squadrons.

 

That's a fair chunk of tournament level lists. I'll take that. And against DEldar popping a Raider with an Assault Cannon and then shooting the Vindicator at the unit afterwards is bliss.

 

If you're hitting more than five models with a large blast consistently, your opponent is terrible at deploying.

 

Vehicle squadrons and Land Raiders are fairly uncommon (and even then it's merely acceptable- an AutoLas Pred would be better.) Large units of models can generally be handled better by templates, which we have in large numbers (or by special Sternguard rounds, or number of other anti-horde shooting.) Paladins/TWC and other squads of multiwound models? Sure, that's their specialty, but those are not omnipresent elements even in the armies that are capable of fielding them. Breaking a transport and then hitting the contents is nice, but it's really no better there than any other blast/flamer weapon- a Dev squad of Missile Launchers would cause a lot more casualties for fewer points and also be better at killing transports and many other targets.