Psychic communition

[breng77]

I have seen it argued that Psychic communion is rolled after your roll all your reserve rolls. RAW this makes no sense.

 

The argument for doing it this was is that Psychic communion and Reserve rolls both say that they happen at the beginning of the movement phase, and since it is your turn you decide which order you perform these actions.

 

While this would be true looking at the psychic communion rule it also states that you

 

modify the reserve rolls by +1/-1 and decide which after each roll has been made.

 

I emphasize the each in this sentence as it indicates that you must roll a dice for one unit at a time and decide whether you want it to be +1 or -1 after that roll, not after all rolls. The only way (unless you are only reserving 1 thing) that you would be able to have the power active and decide after each roll would be for the power to occur prior to rolling for reserves.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Captain Idaho]

The wording of the psychic power infers you have it active, then roll for reserves and modify each roll as you see fit.

[Crynn]

As far as I can tell by raw you seem to be able to because it says 'you do it at the start of your movement which is exactly when you roll for reserves. INnany phase when things happen simultaniously the player whos turn it is decides what to do first. For instance using fortune from two farseers, both must be cast at the start of the turn, doing one does not stop you doing the other. Moveing, shooting, Assault. All these things the controlling player gets to choose the order of. By RAW the rules say that both reserves and this particular psychic power are rolled at the start of the movement phase so what is stopping someone from rolling their reserves then the power? The arguement cannot be 'because it is no longer the start of the movement phase' because if that was the case as soon as you had rolled for reserves for one unit it would no longer be able to roll for the next. RAI I may agree but by RAW I think it doable.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[breng77]

Except if you have yet to roll for the power you cannot apply it after each reserve Die has been rolled. The power states each, not all. The power works like this.

 

Say you have 3 units in reserve

 

You roll for the first then decide to add +1 or -1 to the roll,

then you roll the second then decide to add +1 or -1 to the roll,

then you roll the third then decide to add +1 or -1 to the roll.

 

You don't roll all 3 and then decide how to modify the rolls. It is not legal to roll all 3 then apply the power even if you roll for the power first.. SO sure if you want to roll the power after you roll all your reserves that is fine, you just cannot use it for the rolls (except argulably the last roll you made).

[thade]

I'm not sure, Breng. Honestly this is a bit of a trip-up due to the ambiguity surrounding what-happens-when insofar as "Beginning of Turn"/"Start of Movement Phase".

 

RAW both Reserve Rolls and the Psychic Communion test are at the start of the Movement Phase. Do they happen simultaneously? Do they happen in some order? If the P.C. rule says (and I don't think it does) "taken before Reserve rolls are made", that's clear enough. But if not, does it allow for the GK player to, say, make a Reserve roll, not like the result, take a Psychic Communion test and then amend that roll? (A limited but obvious advantage over a power that's already advantageous.)

 

I'm not sure; I'd appreciate an FAQ. I think, in the meantime, I'll make the check at the top of the phase, prior to Reserve rolls. It's not that much of a loss (GMs and BCs have two powers a turn at least anyway) and seems 1. more fair, and 2. less likely to cause a fuss. :wub:

[thade]

You don't roll all 3 and then decide how to modify the rolls. It is not legal to roll all 3 then apply the power even if you roll for the power first.. SO sure if you want to roll the power after you roll all your reserves that is fine, you just cannot use it for the rolls (except argulably the last roll you made).

Oh is this the issue? Interesting.

 

(Trying to think of a way this could be game-breaking.)

 

So, say you have, like, five units in Reserve, and you only want two of them in if two others get in. You roll for the two others, and...

 

Yea, you know, I don't see a big deal either way, haha. So what if they choose to add to each roll after having made them all?

[breng77]

NO PC does not say that it is taken before hand, but it does state that the results of the power are applied after "each" reserve roll is made, you cannot apply the power after each roll if you roll it after ALL rolls have been made. Trust me I wish you could roll everything and then decide (it would make the power much stronger). The only place where my argument is lacking is if you only have one unit in reserve. In that case it would be possible to roll, then roll the power and then apply the result, because you only had one roll.

 

Also GMs only get 2 powers if you pay for it, and BCs don't get mastery level 2 at all.

[number6]

Because of the ambiguity, I think the only sensible thing to do is divine the intent of the "RAW", since the extant RAW isn't actually specific enough.

 

We should all be used to this by now. GW is just that bad at writing rules.

 

I think the intent is clear enough: the psyker gets to cast Psychic Communion before making any Reserves rolls in that same turn.

[breng77]

So, say you have, like, five units in Reserve, and you only want two of them in if two others get in. You roll for the two others, and...

 

Yea, you know, I don't see a big deal either way, haha. So what if they choose to add to each roll after having made them all?

 

It is much better if you do it after all rolls are made because say I reserve those 5 units.

 

On turn 2 I roll for them and I roll (in order) 3, 4, 2, 2, 1, now if I know I am only getting at most 2 units in I might decide that it is better to keep everything off the table. Or if I rolled 4, 2, 2, 2, 1 now if I knew this I might keep that first unit off, if I don't I might decide that it is coming in. Now it is unlikely that it will be that extreeme that often, but say you rolled 3, 4, 2, 4, 5. If you were trying to keepyourself off the table you might decide to lower the second and 4th results, which means only the 5th unit would come in. However, seeing all 5 results, maybe you think rather than having 1 unit come in this turn you want 4. When you apply the results makes the power work much differently.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am with number6 on this - that is exactly how I have played it.

 

G :woot:

[thade]

Yea, I mean, that is still my assertion as well, over all. /agree that the power is used before Reserve Rolls are made.

[yperihitikos]

There is no need for a FAQ.

 

They both happen at the start of the Movement phase. You roll for reserves "before moving any unit" (Rulebook p.94).

Codex:GK p.23, "If the Psychic test is successful, you can modify any reserve rolls made this phase..." and "...choose after each dice roll has been made."

 

What we know about the process is that you can modify the roll after each one and not every reserve roll has been made. You make the roll, you modify it or not and then you proceed to the next. Whch means that you should have made the psyxhic test before any reserve dice roll has been made.

[Something Wycked]

Well said, sir.

[Crynn]

All very fair points guys. As has been explianed by raw you only have the chance to roll it after if you only have one unit in reserve, that was well argued. I do believe RAI means before but it looks like if it was only one unit you could do it after.

 

Really good rules debate where everyone backs up their statements, so thank you for that it is really appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn