Adapt to Codex Astartes

[Artein]

So I've read Rules of Engagement recently and it reminded me about one post by A D-B written some time ago. It was about Night Lords (if I remember correctly) loosing badly to loyal Space Marines using Codex Astartes for the first time. From what I understand CA is pretty awesome and forces that are using it have an advantage over the ones not using it. Or do they?

 

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

[Son of Rawl]

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

 

Cry in our power armour as we know we can never be Ultramarines

[Ring-around-the-roses]

In rules of engagment, the entire thing was a training excercise to prepare the Ultramarines for fighting traitor legions. They faced mock Death Guard, Sons of Horus and Salamanders, as a test.

 

And as developing a counter to the coedx Astartes, that is a very good question. As i have said before, how have the traitors not gotten hold of a copy in 10k years of fighting. Or even longer, if they're working in Warp-time. It makes no sense at all.

[Menkeroth]

Agree! Guilliman was trying to write anything about warfare, but since the Heresy it greatly changed. We have many our own ways. But we can counter CA by fighting like Abbadon and his dreaded Black Legion :D

[darth_giles]

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

I'd say that'd vary from warband to warband, although I'd be surprised if most Lords and DPs even knew it existed.

 

It could make for a good plot objective in a narrative campaign, though. A warband of CSMs on the outs from their legion trying to capture a chapter's copy of the Codex. Who knows what juicy tidbits of intelligence could be gleaned from it.

[Trevak Dal]

Then there are those space marines who are recent traitors, who know the book and can use what's good, and improvise the rest.

[Artein]

So without Codex only Abaddon-like fighting can fight as equals with Codex Chapters?

 

I guess that some recent traitors are still using it to some degree but what about Legions? What about Space Wolves or Black Templars?

 

Or maybe it's not such a masterpiece of battle tactics after all?

 

I'm confused.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Well lets look at it this way.

 

Abaddon- Was not their when the Codex was issued, and apparently is too inept to get a copy of the book that contains all the tactics and methodology of his enemies <_<

 

Huron Blackheart- Renegade chapter master, and therefore was a master of the codex Astartes. In brief life, has drawn more than a dozen chapters into a massive war, draining resources and damaging the Imperial power around the Maelstrom for centuries at least. Has so far created one of the biggest pirate Empire the Imperium has ever seen, acts as a locus for most renegades and warbands. Also has the rare honour of being one of the few too not only take a Space Wolf ship, but also turn the remnants of the crew to Chaos in the midst of battle . Nuff said.

 

See what difference the Codex makes when a master of it turns to Chaos. Now, imagine what would happen if Abaddon used it :o

 

The fluff sometimes gives me headaches with its plotholes...

[darth_giles]

Abaddon- Was not their when the Codex was issued, and apparently is too inept to get a copy of the book that contains all the tactics and methodology of his enemies :)

I'm starting to think of Abbadon as being as inept as Khârn. That having been said, he's probably too arrogant to even consider filching a copy of the Codex or borrowing one from one of the chapters that went bad. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if a standard rite of passage amongst renegades was to have a Codex-burning at their fortress-monastery. After all, why else would Fabius Bile be the "only" source of new Chaos Space Marines when the knowledge for producing new Loyalists is so bloody commonplace?

 

What's to say that some of the renegade units don't have their own apothecaries and means of producing their own CSMs from cultists?

[Menkeroth]

I think Abbadon had so many fights with lapdogs of the False Emperor that he knows all their tactics and methods. Perhaps, this also helped him in the 13th BC - after all, he did manage to breach the Gates and nearly take the Sector! :)

[Vilicate]

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

 

Cry in our power armour as we know we can never be Ultramarines

 

Seems like a direct quote from Codex: Space Marines regarding chapters without RG as their primarch. A true Wardism.

 

Like all things, pretty sure lack of the Codex just means we use things like guile, cunning, sabotage and 10k years of combat experience to overcome the loyalists and their honor-bound adherence to some crappy bromance novel by Guilleman.

[Legatus]

"To say they arrived in orderly formation would be to do them an injustice, for the warriors' cohesion far exceeded anything seen in the Blood Reaver's attack force. In pristine ceramite of blue and white, matching the halved heraldries of ancient Terran knights, a single squad of warriors threw themselves into cover at the far end of the corridor. Their movements were utterly economical, ruthless in their soldiery precision, taking positions in total silence but for the growl of armour and the crack of bolter stocks against shoulder guards as each of them took aim.

Their leader was unhelmed, his stern features moulded into a mask of absolute resolve. Even over the distance, Talos knew that look, and could recall when he'd worn it himself. The defiance in the warrior's gaze made the prophet's skin crawl. Here was a man that believed in his cause. He felt no doubt, no hesitation, no temptation to wrack his mind in the fuile second-guessing of sworn duty. His life was unclouded by broken oaths, and the legacy of mistrust and confusion that drifted in the wake of every betrayal."

(From "Blood Reaver" by Aaron Dembski-Bowden)

 

That scene features a Night Lord's observation of an arriving squad of enemy Knights Errant Marines. What stands out for the purpose of this thread are the observation that the Knight Errant's unit cohesion not only exceeded that of the Night Lords, but also that of the other units in Huron Blackheart's force. Then there is also that bit at the end, where Talos muses on the different mind set of traitors versus those of loyalists. The point I am trying to make with this is that even if a traitor force got ahold of the Codex Astartes, or even if it was an only recently turned Chapter, it is questionable whether the traitors would be able to apply all of the teachings of the Codex just like a loyalist Codex Chapter would. They might be able to use the broader tactical advice, but perhaps not the detailed battle doctrines. Traitors are of a different mindset, and Chaos warriors are often more individual minded, thinking of their own agenda, how to gain more power for themselves, probably mistrusting several of their comrades.

[Something Wycked]

...honor-bound adherence to some crappy bromance novel by Guilleman.

I lol'ed.

 

I think Abbadon had so many fights with lapdogs of the False Emperor that he knows all their tactics and methods. Perhaps, this also helped him in the 13th BC - after all, he did manage to breach the Gates and nearly take the Sector! <_<

Yes, that other fluff abomination- Abaddon's 12 failed crusades. I saw a motivational poster starring Abaddon and the caption said: "Incompetence wears Terminator armor." That's something GW should really work on- it wouldn't be so bad for there to be one failure (it could be explained away as a feint later on or something), but a dozen failures? That really makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. The biggest, baddest champion that Chaos can put forward fails a dozen times before seeing success? Come on GW, make my villains believeable. I'd hope for uber villains for this over the top gaming universe, but I'll settle for believable. When you read about the first 12 Black Crusades, each time they end with "and the might of the Imperium descended on Abaddon and he fled back into the Eye of Terror."

 

What's Huron doing? Chilling in 40k's version of Tortuga, drinking rum? Yep, the Codex Astartes is still the definitive tome of warfare in 40k. :mellow:

 

You tell 'em, Legatus.

[Lexington]

Much like their refusal to use post-Heresy weaponry, I think the Traitor Legions don't adopt the Codex Astartes because they view the Imperium itself as wrong. It oughtn't be. It is a thing they built, which exiles them from history as traitors from a mythical age - and that's when it bothers to remember them at all. Picking up their book and using it would be tantamount to heresy in their ranks. It's saying that the Imperium has produced something of worth. They fight like Legions, because as far as they're concerned, the Legions were the ones who had it right in the first place.

 

Besides, unlike Loyalists, the Traitor Legions don't work for unified goals within a larger empire. They don't have an Imperial Guard to back them up, nor the Imperium's vast economy to grind their war machine forward. Maximum flexibility isn't useful for them in the same way it is for the Imperials because they're perpetually the aggressors.

 

Yes, that other fluff abomination- Abaddon's 12 failed crusades. I saw a motivational poster starring Abaddon and the caption said: "Incompetence wears Terminator armor." That's something GW should really work on- it wouldn't be so bad for there to be one failure (it could be explained away as a feint later on or something), but a dozen failures?

Well, given that every single one of Abbadon's Black Crusades has been a success...

[Kristoff]

Yes, that other fluff abomination- Abaddon's 12 failed crusades. I saw a motivational poster starring Abaddon and the caption said: "Incompetence wears Terminator armor." That's something GW should really work on- it wouldn't be so bad for there to be one failure (it could be explained away as a feint later on or something), but a dozen failures?

Well, given that every single one of Abbadon's Black Crusades has been a success...

 

Especially given that anyone who fails the Gods big time either die or become a Spawn (destined to die over and over again), and that Abaddon hasn't become one yet AND retained all the Marks, it's safe to say that he has been successful in meeting his goals in every Crusade. Just because he didn't succeed in obvious goals does not make him a failure.

 

As for the Codex Astartes, the Chaos Marines are not so dogmatic as to put their faith in a book written by someone they have little trust for and has lead to a large amount of stringency in the Imperium's Astartes. They Chaos Marines' legacy and strength is their adaptability and randomness.

[TheDarkApostle]

Just because he doesn't do what everyone expect him to do does not mean he's a failure and has failed his crusades. Just the fact that there's some 6 or 7 crusades we don't even know anything at all about besides the fact that they did at some point happen means a lot.

 

The first, (or maybe second, I can't remember exactly), crusade for example had for Abbadon at least the explicit purpose of acquiring his Daemon Blade Drach'nyen. And this he succeeded in.

 

The Gothic crusade resulted in him acquiring two Blackstone fortresses, also a success.

 

There might even be deeper more hidden meanings and agendas behind a crusade like weeding out the weak and potentially dangerous rivals under the pretext of a crusade, while also keeping the men sated for the time being while other preparations who require a bit more time are still underway. Take the Planet Killer for example, timing is everything after all.

 

Also some might have been simply to tie up the Imperiums resources and keep their focus away from elsewhere. Only the Gods knows what is being planned and prepared in the Maelstrom while the Imperium has it's eyes on the Eye.

 

Etcetera etcetera :)

 

Also on the note of the Codex Astartes to keep on topic, remember that much of the Coxes is not something actually thought up by Guilleman himself, but rather just a compilation of ideas and tactics thought up by other great men, like the Emperor himself, Perturabo, Horus especially, and a ton of other great men throughout the ages.

 

TDA

[MaliGn]

The only book we need is the Book or Lorgar. The Urizen's treatise on the empyrean and it's place in the galaxy, demonstrating the superiority of the True Gods above the false doctrines of the hypocrite corpse emperor.

 

In other words:

my book>your book (in my opinion) and your book>my book (in your opinion) just like real world religion.

 

Plus there's nothing in the codex astartes explaining the correct summoning of daemons, the construction of nefarious daemon engines, erection of gehemanet towers or the rituals of binding a daemon within an astartes warrior therefore if a chaotic army was to follow it's tenets they'd be cutting off their nose to spite their face, rather than cutting off thier opoonents noses for fun!

[Menkeroth]

MaliGn

+1! Nothing to add ;) and, of course, we need the Book of Magnus where lie all the spells known. For our sorcerers it's a good deal.

[Son of Rawl]

To add I don't think we would want to follow the Codex astartes anymore considering its is the reason why we turned traitor to begin with. Friggin Ward.

[darth_giles]

To add I don't think we would want to follow the Codex astartes anymore considering its is the reason why we turned traitor to begin with. Friggin Ward.

No, we turned traitor because the False Emperor was a pathetic fool who didn't properly comprehend that humankind needed spiritual domination as well as temporal.

 

Although I wouldn't totally write the Codex off. Its like having a copy of Chairman Mao's little red book during the peak of the Cold War; sure people might accuse you of being a loyalist for reading it, but the insights it can give into the loyalist's mind and strategy are more than worth it, especially for novice Chaos Lords.

[Yogi]

The codex should yield an advantage in that Chapters are far more flexible then Warbands. Most legions have a hallmark method of war, and are therefore predictable. (GW generally ignores this, so it doesn't seem much of an advantage in the lore.)

 

However a true codex chapter has other advantages.

 

The concept of loyalists fighting for something and traitors fighting for themselves yields an advantage to the loyalists. Even the rules reflect this with ATSKNF.

 

The sound mind of the loyalist vs the common insanity of the traitors offers advantage to the loyalists.

 

Generally less arrogance/pride of Loyalists. (IMO Space Wolves, Black Templars etc don't have this advantage. However only the Imperial Fists pay in the lore for this flaw.)

 

There are more but I can't be bothered listing them all.

 

Traitor marines have two dubious advantages. First is experience, rarely is this shown to do anything. The second is the chaos gods gifts. This IMO is worthless. Every gift given comes at a horrendous price, the advantages are negligible in comparison to the united loyalists.

 

Chaos Space Marines only redeeming feature is that they are magnitudes cooler then loyalists.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

I know this is not canon, but in the Word Bearers trilogy, the Chaos Space marines do seem to have a advantage in terms of experience and combat ability over the Loyalists attacking them. In the case of their elites, they seem to be able to tap into the warp to a limited extent, to heal themselves or become stronger, though i'm not sure if this is just limited to the Word Bearers or if it has different forms in other legions. That, i think, would make a interesting ability for veterans to have.

[darth_giles]

The codex should yield an advantage in that Chapters are far more flexible then Warbands. Most legions have a hallmark method of war, and are therefore predictable. (GW generally ignores this, so it doesn't seem much of an advantage in the lore.)

 

However a true codex chapter has other advantages.

 

The concept of loyalists fighting for something and traitors fighting for themselves yields an advantage to the loyalists. Even the rules reflect this with ATSKNF.

 

The sound mind of the loyalist vs the common insanity of the traitors offers advantage to the loyalists.

 

Generally less arrogance/pride of Loyalists. (IMO Space Wolves, Black Templars etc don't have this advantage. However only the Imperial Fists pay in the lore for this flaw.)

 

There are more but I can't be bothered listing them all.

They're ignoring it in the current codex. The IA lists and previous codex didn't, and we don't know what the next codex will do.

 

Traitor marines have two dubious advantages. First is experience, rarely is this shown to do anything. The second is the chaos gods gifts. This IMO is worthless. Every gift given comes at a horrendous price, the advantages are negligible in comparison to the united loyalists.

 

Chaos Space Marines only redeeming feature is that they are magnitudes cooler then loyalists.

Again, this only applies to the current codex. The previous codex allowed a warband to take veteran skills- potentially a ton of them. But yeah, the current codex stripped that out in favor of us getting vindicators and raptors that aren't 0-1. Maybe it was to force WYSIWYG since a lot of conversions could potentially represent a lot of things, or maybe it was because of people whining that the Iron Warriors were too effective with their looted Basilisks, but either way it ripped all the flavor out of the codex.

 

Night Lords Thousand Sons, anyone?

 

As for the gifts of the gods coming at such a price... not sure where that came from. It wasn't in th 3.0 or 3.5 codex, so it might be something the Black Library added. Not that I really like how they butcher fluff. The gifts of the gods only bore that extreme of a price if they decided to start mutating you. And quite often they'd be satisfied if you sacrificed enough victims to them.

[Loathir's Own]

I was lurking through and decided to weigh in on this topic.

 

Thoughts on changes to make Chaos SMs have there advantages again:

EYE OF THE GODS table from fantasy... reason, if you haven't read it I would suggest reading it.

 

I would give it to possesed and have it be an upgrade for one unit of either termies or raptors depending on the lord choice.

 

In summary, it is a chart that you get one roll on 2d6 that you consult the chart 2=nothing 12= awesome (although i think it should turn a dude into a spawn)

you start the game with one roll and as you kill units you get to roll for each unit killed. Some of the things are painful if you are facing them, yes t5 warriors are kinda broken, but it would show the randomness of chaos for IOCG and regular renegade foot troops. This system would allow units like terminators and Raptors to have their benefits again and potentially give possesed their teeth back, two of the three units I just mentioned only are good at tank-hunting which leaves not much else to deal with other hard hitting units. (bezekers get killed by allot in cc these days and from what I hear Necrons will soon out combat them. :P

 

Obviously the cult troops would have there own buffs, as now but if i am paying as much as a death company marine i expect to survive against them.

 

As some one who played chaos for a while and has read a lot of information on chaos and loyalists, I have no doubt that chaos leaders have at least some idea about the codex, although I think most don't care. They are out for survival and mostly disruption. Alpha Legion I am sure knows it well. Word Bearers probably have read it. Black Legion's Lieutenants have probably read it, Iron warriors are probably familiar with it, the night lords and the cult legions probably have not read it.

 

Why I believe they have read it, all of them fight Space Marines and multiple times they have beat killed destroyed units or fortifications, I think that they would want an edge in battle as being survivalists they would be willing to throw out the reasoning that this book contains their version of heresy for an edge in gaining the pay off of supplies, geneseed and ships. (then again this is my opinion and should be noted as such)

[Menkeroth]

+1! Almost agree. :D

And Eye of the Gods... An awesome thing. And it's not surprising, Warriors of Chaos in FB're awesome)