Adapt to Codex Astartes

[Artein]

It was a question about fluff, not about rules.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

So, what we got so far is that the beliefs of the Codex wouldn't work on the Legions, though some Legions may have picked up small sections of it from fighting loyalists. And that Chaos are really possessive of their libraries (WB and TS)

 

And, the Chaos forces DO have a massive war machine, with factory worlds, food production etc. The book Hammer of Daemons shows a fine example of this, as the world the main character lands on is one-part raiding post, one-part shrine for the Chaos Gods. And there has been repeated rumours of Dark Mechanicus Forge-Worlds, which could easily provide the material necessary for the Black Crusades.

 

But, the Chaos Legions socio-economic-military structre shold really be discussed elsewhere :D

[minigun762]

I remember in Chapter's Due that Honsou is able to take advantage of his knowledge of the Codex and the Ultramarine's movements in space to inflict some significant damage which indicates that 1) at least some Chaos marines are aware of the Codex and its teaching and 2) the fact that the Codex has preplanned action for most situations allows it to be countered.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

And Chaos would have a advantage in that the Codex is limited into what it can do. I really doubt Guilliman was thinking of teleporting daemons or how to prevent continent wide series of small events that lead up to daemon-world shiftiness. Thats why the Imperium needs the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights after all. So, Chaos does have a few tricks up its sleeve. Though that means they still need to infiltrate the world in the first place, which would be stupidly difficult in some places, such as anywhere a Chapter has close ties too. :P

[darth_giles]

And Chaos would have a advantage in that the Codex is limited into what it can do. I really doubt Guilliman was thinking of teleporting daemons or how to prevent continent wide series of small events that lead up to daemon-world shiftiness. Thats why the Imperium needs the Ordo Malleus and Grey Knights after all. So, Chaos does have a few tricks up its sleeve. Though that means they still need to infiltrate the world in the first place, which would be stupidly difficult in some places, such as anywhere a Chapter has close ties too. ;)

Not if its a Blood Angels successor. Just dress up a DP as Sanguinius. :tu:

[Eetion]

But also you have to consider that the codex ca be a hinderence as well as a tool. Proven that it stumbles when against skilled or thinking opponents.

 

Alpharius supposedly did it. His Legion knocking the Ultra Marines and Guilleman about. Mainly because they thought outside the box, threw situations completely unexpected by Guilleman and his Codex, until they had to fly off and lick their wounds during an ineffective orbital bombardment.

[Lay]

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

Probably nothing. The Traitor Legion's loyalties lie with their Primarchs and patron gods, the only authorities they have to adapt to. And they wouldn't follow them if they weren't convinced of their superiority.

In the end, the Legions have to make up for their lack of Codex flexibility with specialization.

[darth_giles]

Probably nothing. The Traitor Legion's loyalties lie with their Primarchs and patron gods, the only authorities they have to adapt to. And they wouldn't follow them if they weren't convinced of their superiority.

In the end, the Legions have to make up for their lack of Codex flexibility with specialization.

How are the Traitor Legions that much more specialized than current Space Marine chapters?

 

World Eaters <-> Blood Angels

Death Guard <-> Space Wolves

Emperor's Children <-> Dark Angels

Thousand Sons <-> Grey Knights(?)

 

Black Legion <-> Ultrasmurfs

Night Lords <-> Raven Guard

Iron Warriors <-> Imperial Fists(?)

Word Bearers <-> Salamanders(?)

 

For some of the less obvious pairings, I shall explain. The Dark Angels as of 3rd Edition were the "super shooty" chapter, just like a Noise Marine army. The Grey Knights are an awkward pairing with the Sons, but they seem to have the same degree being dead hard and combined with the average trooper being something more than just your average Marine. The last two pairings are both chapters that all use the unmodified codex now- the IW and WB use the core Chaos codex, like the IF and Sallies.

 

So there you have it. We're not anymore specialized than they are.

[Lay]

Nope. We're talking about the fluff here, not the gameplay.

[MRCHAOS]

I'm sure that a lot Chaos Generals know of the Codex, and use it against the Loyalists, as they know how they will react to every situation.

 

I remember somewhere reading that some of the Codex consists of work from Perturabo.

[Son of Rawl]

I do find it rathar hypocritical that the Emperor sanctioned the Thousand Sons (His sorrcerors) and then orders a creation of a new chapter full of them, yes, we can call Grey Knights Sorrcerors now thanks to Ward

[darth_giles]

I do find it rathar hypocritical that the Emperor sanctioned the Thousand Sons (His sorrcerors) and then orders a creation of a new chapter full of them, yes, we can call Grey Knights Sorrcerors now thanks to Ward

Got a citation on that bit of fluff? Cause I find it hard to believe considering the Thousand Sons' geneseed was prone to mutation, while the GK geneseed is the purest available, arguably purer than that of the Dark Angels and Ultrasmurfs.

[Legatus]

I remember in Chapter's Due that Honsou is able to take advantage of his knowledge of the Codex and the Ultramarine's movements in space to inflict some significant damage which indicates that 1) at least some Chaos marines are aware of the Codex and its teaching and 2) the fact that the Codex has preplanned action for most situations allows it to be countered.

Unfortunately Graham McNeill is heavily biased against the Codex Astartes, and to a point it is even comical how he has to include slights against the Codex Astartes in every story about the Ultramarines he writes. In some of his short stories that had even been the main point of the entire plot. That is why I see McNeill as the greatest bane to the Ultramarines by far, much worse than Matt Ward.

 

 

I do find it rathar hypocritical that the Emperor sanctioned the Thousand Sons (His sorrcerors) and then orders a creation of a new chapter full of them, yes, we can call Grey Knights Sorrcerors now thanks to Ward

Got a citation on that bit of fluff? Cause I find it hard to believe considering the Thousand Sons' geneseed was prone to mutation, while the GK geneseed is the purest available, arguably purer than that of the Dark Angels and Ultrasmurfs.

The Emperor sanctioned the Thousand Sons for sorcery, not for mutation, thus the comment that he then had the Grey Knights created. Though, of course, in the original fluff the Emperor had only outlawed sorcery, not psionic powers, which only made a million times more sense, which is why Alan Merrett changed it.

[minigun762]

Unfortunately Graham McNeill is heavily biased against the Codex Astartes, and to a point it is even comical how he has to include slights against the Codex Astartes in every story about the Ultramarines he writes. In some of his short stories that had even been the main point of the entire plot. That is why I see McNeill as the greatest bane to the Ultramarines by far, much worse than Matt Ward.

 

Would I be correct in assuming that you weren't a huge fan of the Rules of Engagementshort story from Age of Darkness?

[Legatus]

Would I be correct in assuming that you weren't a huge fan of the Rules of Engagementshort story from Age of Darkness?

An accurate conclusion.

[minigun762]

Interesting, I happened to like that story as I felt like it depicted the Codex more for what it should be than what it is now.

 

I will agree that Ventris is a little too wild and maverick for my liking, even in later stories. I would assume that the happy medium is somewhere between "the Codex is perfect and 100% appropriate 100% of the time" and "the Codex is no longer relevant to the realities of today and therefore a crutch and weakness to be exploited".

[Something Wycked]

I would assume that the happy medium is somewhere between "the Codex is perfect and 100% appropriate 100% of the time" and "the Codex is no longer relevant to the realities of today and therefore a crutch and weakness to be exploited".

As excellent of a thought as that is, I don't buy into the "happy medium" theory :)

 

I'm a tactician. I've made a study of military history, particularly of actual battles and the tactics used by both sides. I've also made a study of generalized strategy of warfare, everything from Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Rommel, von Seeckt, etc. When you read these historical works on how to apply military force you will find that there are essentially two methods for prescribing actions in warfare.

 

The first method is to communicate a general principle without any tactical context for the employment of the idea. A good example would be the phrase attributed to Julius Augustus Caesar, "Divide et impera," divide and conquer, or many of the tenets in Sun Tzu's work such as:

 

When the enemy is at ease, be able to weary him; when well fed, to starve him; when at rest, to make him move. Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.

None of these principles have included instructions on how to implement them in an actual battle. They are overarching "guidelines" about best practices to enact a victory.

 

The second method is to describe the implementation of a particular action or set of actions in great detail, including the situation(s) in which it is appropriate. The best example that springs to mind is when Rommel speaks of artillery being used against infantry. He states that if the infantry is in trenches, there will be casualties from the odd piece of shrapnel or very lucky strike into a trench but for the most part the shrapnel will fly harmlessly over the heads of the infantry. Therefore, shelling fortified infantry is a waste of ammunition unless you want to keep their heads down immediately prior to an attack; the best time to shell infantry is when they are stationary but have not yet dug in.

 

If you've made it this far through all of that, well done <_< I'm finally getting to my point. If Guilliman was effectively the best military mind the Imperium has had (or at least in the top three) then his Codex Astartes likely utilizes a combination of the two above described methods for communicating best practices (and perhaps other methods that we haven't dreamed up) and it would be extraordinarily easy for Ultramarines to add to the work.

 

The statement that "the Codex is no longer relevant to the realities of today and therefore a crutch and weakness to be exploited" is thoroughly incorrect. Consider Sun Tzu's The Art of War:

 

...archeological recoveries have proven that the Art of War had roughly achieved its current form by at least the early Han dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE).

The (arguably) best military treatise of all time was written at least 1700 years before the advent of modern aircraft and it is no less applicable today than it was during Sun Tzu's time, even with all of the other technological and societal changes and advancements that have taken place since. The Codex Astartes has existed for a much broader timeframe in the 40k universe but far less has changed militarily. With two exceptions (Tau, Tyranids) the enemies of the Imperium are the same as they were at the time of the writing of the Codex. The Astartes are still using the same weaponry they were in the Heresy era, with a few additions and subtractions and the same can be said of all the enemies of the Imperium. Far, far less has changed in 40k since 30k than on our Earth from 220 CE to 2011 CE and Sun Tzu's work would be considered well below the level of excellence the Codex Astartes achieves.

 

You may even take a look at modern American military tactics. Though they are constantly evolving after every After Action Report, there are a core of "best practices" that are known just as well by the enemy as they are by the troops that are trained in their use. You'd think it would be folly to continue on a course of action that your enemy is 100% prepared for, and that really is good logic. Except that these best practices are so effective that it doesn't matter if the enemy is perfectly prepared for them or not- they just keep working. That will change if our enemies figure out a hard counter but right now they can't do much more than flail and hope to do some harm before they die.

 

As for "the Codex is perfect and 100% appropriate 100% of the time"... Well, yes, it probably is. Take one of the greatest military minds of all time giving you a core set of "best practices" to use against nearly every enemy you will face. Supplement it with entire libraries of After Action Reports that describe both victories and defeats so students of the Codex can gain a firsthand working knowledge of applying the tenets to real situations and why they succeeded or why they failed.

 

It seems more plausible to me that defeats suffered by adherents to the Codex are not from failures of the Codex but are instead failures of the officer implementing the Codex; either the officer does not have a complete knowledge of every letter of the Codex or he made an error in judgement. As examples of the latter, perhaps he did not fall back when it would have been correct to do so or misidentified an opponent (Eldar vs. Dark Eldar) or his perception of a situation is Pattern Beta Five when it is really Omega Ten and the resulting orders he gives are not the appropriate ones that the Codex decrees for the situation. Perhaps the Astartes failed not due to an error in judgement but simply from being too few against too many and died in a heroic stand, not having a chance of victory in the first place- this is still not an error in the Codex.

 

That's my take on it, anyway. :rolleyes:

[minigun762]

A great post Something, one that I'll have to reread again before I can fully respond.

 

It seems like you are arguing that the any failure isn't the fault of the Codex itself but rather those using it. In essence its is "blame the handyman, not the tools".

 

I would partially agree with that but I find it difficult say that the Codex is without flaws or weaknesses. The simply fact that the Codex exists gives you the potential to abuse it by making your moves predictable. Now the Codex would surely caution against being predictable but it would also say that formation 4 using loadout A is the best option against attack Foxtrot. To then blame the user for being forced to choose between the Codex's recommendations and the desire not to be predictable seems unfair.

 

I think the Codex is an excellent starting point, a list of foundations and good practices but not the be all and end all.

[Something Wycked]

The simply fact that the Codex exists gives you the potential to abuse it by making your moves predictable.

I addressed this when speaking about the US military. To give an example, its standard practice to throw a frag or flashbang grenade into a room before entering. We know we're going to do it; the enemy combatants know full well we're going to do it. It still works.

 

If you're in that room, you're blind and/or concussed or wounded or dead and in a few moments you'll be killed or captured when the team enters the room.

 

If you're not in that room, you're in an adjacent room and the same thing is going to happen to you in a few more moments, so you have three options:

 

1) Flee.

2) Sit tight, wait for the Americans to breach the room you're in (and suffer the above fate)

3) Wait for the grenade(s) to go off and then counter-charge into the room at the same time as the Americans.

 

#3 sounds like a great plan, except now you're faced with the American Football problem. Neither team can move until the football is moved by the offensive team. The offensive team knows when its going to happen; the defensive team does not. The offensive team therefore has the initiative, and there will be more prepared American soldiers in that room than the enemy combatants can deal with, even if they all stream through that door one right after the other.

 

The point is that even though the Codex is a written document and it is possible for enemies to read it (or learn through battle experience) and know what the Codex Astartes battle plan will be in a given situation doesn't automatically mean that the Codex Astartes tactics can be overcome. They're just that effective.

[Excessus]

well, you assume that the opponents of the American squad isn't as trained or well equipped as them.

 

Of course the #3 scenario would be preceded with a flashbang or frag grenade as well, after all, the Americans are now occupying the exact same room that the opponents did before and are subject to similar conditions...

 

Heck, I would just booby trap the "entrance rooms" so that when the American troops had grenaded, rushed in, taken over the room and were preparing to go into the next I would have blown one of the booby traps and countercharged...

[Legatus]

The problem with how some view the Codex Astartes is that they interprete it as being a specifically detailes set of instructions for a given situation. That is pretty much how McNeill seems to view it, and it is how he has described the Codex in "Rules of Engagement". The Codex dictated step by step how to fight a global campaign, and the Marine Commander using the Codex did not even understand what the ultimate goal of the individual steps would be. IMO that is a ridiculous notion, as it would be impossible to calculate and predict all the myriad constellations and factors of every battle ever to be fought. I mean, we are dealing with a fictional fantasy setting, but I just cannot keep up my suspension of disbelief with such a "predicts every step, in minute detail" manual.

 

I assume the Codex has much more general descriptions, and is intended to allow a force to work as economical and efficient as possible under varying circumstances. Situations have an optimal approach, and the Codex will have suggestions based on hundreds of years of warfare and empirical tests. But it cannot predict all minute details.

 

E.g. when fighting Orks, the Codex probably does not flat out dictate that every other squad should be equipped with a heavy bolter. Because then when facing a mechanised waaagh or a small force of 'ard boys and mega nobs the Marines woul not be all that effective. The Codex will likely suggest that including heavy bolters is usually effective against orks, but the Codex will also suggest that missile launchers or laser cannons are useful against heavy armoured opponents. When the Marine Commander is faced with an opposing waaagh, he has to decide the best course of action based on his intel of the situation and the suggestions of the Codex. If he only knows that he will be fighting Orks, he might opt to equip several of his squads with heavy bolters. But when the waaagh includes a lot of armour, he has to consider whether to equip more anti tank weapons.

 

The Codex will probably include figures on how many anti infantry and anti tank weapons are adviseable depending on the amount of enemy infantry and enemy armour, but it will probably not flat out state that 3 squads should be given heavy bolters, 2 squads missile launchers and 1 squad a laser cannon.

 

Essentially, the way McNeill and some players see the Codex is that it gives specific instructions for how to equip and how to maneuver in minute detail, and the Marines will have to follow those specific instructions.

The way I see it the Codex makes a lot of suggestions on how to effectively and economically deal with more general situations, and it is then up to the Commander to assess teh current situation and decide which suggestins of the Codex would be most applicable for the problems at hand.

 

As far as exploiting the Codex goes, the first point of view would of course allow for exploitation, as the enemy might now the exact weapon lay out and movement of the Codex force. The latter point of view would not allow for easy exploitation, since the Codex would tell the Commander hwo to conduct certain maneuvers, but it would not specifically tell him when and where to use them. It would be up to the Commander, to a certain degree, to figure out which tenets of the Codex would be most applicable and beneficial.

[Captain Tezdal]

Abaddon- Was not their when the Codex was issued, and apparently is too inept to get a copy of the book that contains all the tactics and methodology of his enemies <_<

I'm starting to think of Abbadon as being as inept as Khârn.

 

Whoa now... Khârn inept? The man has been doing what he loves, and doing it well for 10,000 years and he's inept? Sure he might not be the greatest general, but thats not what he's about. He's all about slap-chopping skulls for the Blood God, and he rocks at it. He doesn't need silly codexes to kill, unless he's beating someone to death with it, just a chain-axe and a trusty plasma pistol.

[TheDarkApostle]

When Abaddon himself together with a pair of berzerker squads without problem can walk right into the Blood Angels first company and wipe them out to a man I don't think he really needs a codex.

 

Just sayin'.

 

TDA

[the jeske]

it wasnt the 1st company he overrun a dev one.

[minigun762]

I'm looking over the space marine codex (the real life one) and it has small blurbs in each of the unit descriptions from the Apocrypha of Skaros, which I understand to be the rough draft of the Codex Astartes.

 

The blurbs mention how each unit should be used, what attributes they should possess and the targets they should go after. Now these are tiny blurbs, but I think they give insight into how the Codex would be written and it seems like a mix of "The Art of War" in detailing theory and a manual of best practices in most situations.

 

Something Wycked, I agree that the best practices are the best practices for a reason and are typically the best thing to do in any given situation. I just don't think they are always the best or don't have some risk of being predictable. The best way for loyalist marines to mitigate this weakness is, as you mentioned, updating or complementing the original work.