Adapt to Codex Astartes

[darth_giles]

The Emperor sanctioned the Thousand Sons for sorcery, not for mutation, thus the comment that he then had the Grey Knights created. Though, of course, in the original fluff the Emperor had only outlawed sorcery, not psionic powers, which only made a million times more sense, which is why Alan Merrett changed it.

I'm not arguing that point. What I'm arguing is the rate of mutation; the GKs have practically zero mutation, while the Thousand Sons had a very high rate even compared to some of the later "mutant" chapters like the Black Dragons. Its more likely that if they did use traitor geneseed, it would be the Night Lords, who had the most stable and mutation-resistant geneseed of any of the traitor legions.

[TheDarkApostle]

Also do remember that very few chapters actually have access to the FULL Codex Astartes. The full deal being something like 12 volumes IIRC.

 

That's ALOT of information.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

I'm not arguing that point. What I'm arguing is the rate of mutation; the GKs have practically zero mutation, while the Thousand Sons had a very high rate even compared to some of the later "mutant" chapters like the Black Dragons. Its more likely that if they did use traitor geneseed, it would be the Night Lords, who had the most stable and mutation-resistant geneseed of any of the traitor legions.

Mr. Havoc wasn't suggesting that the Emperor used traitor gene-seed for the Grey Knights. He pointed out that the Emperor first sanctioned the Thousand Sons for their sorcery and then went on to create a new Chapter full of Psykers.

[Something Wycked]

well, you assume that the opponents of the American squad isn't as trained or well equipped as them.

Because they're not. They're backwater insurgents, irregular troops who use whatever gear they can get their hands on and the training involved "this is how to shoot your AK-47" and perhaps some on how to use explosives. No armor to speak of, and no support either.

 

Of course the #3 scenario would be preceded with a flashbang or frag grenade as well, after all, the Americans are now occupying the exact same room that the opponents did before and are subject to similar conditions...

That would be an excellent idea. Except the enemy doesn't have access to the same amount or type of ordinance. :P

 

Heck, I would just booby trap the "entrance rooms" so that when the American troops had grenaded, rushed in, taken over the room and were preparing to go into the next I would have blown one of the booby traps and countercharged...

And do you know what we do with a structure that is booby trapped? We get the hell out and have tanks or artillery or air support turn the building into a crater. Sure you can inflict a few casualties with that method but this is assuming that we want to take the building intact. We don't have to. :P

 

"Best practices" aren't set in stone as things that must be done; if you want to clear a building, we have ways to do that. If it becomes apparent that the advantage is in the opponent's favor, we're not playing fair. We're playing to win and out comes the real advantages- the same way that the Astartes escalate their response to meet the changing needs of the situation as instructed by the Codex.

[Excessus]

well, to have the codex only deal with how to destroy inferior troops would be kinda bad, wouldn't it...

 

Americans attacking inferior troops is what has happened historically, but what if they came against a similar foe? I doubt the same tactics would work... Both sides would have air support and artillery, as well as grenades and advanced tactics...

 

What happens when they come up against CSM? Just do the same and hope for the best?

[TheDarkApostle]

well, to have the codex only deal with how to destroy inferior troops would be kinda bad, wouldn't it...

 

Americans attacking inferior troops is what has happened historically, but what if they came against a similar foe? I doubt the same tactics would work... Both sides would have air support and artillery, as well as grenades and advanced tactics...

 

What happens when they come up against CSM? Just do the same and hope for the best?

Hence we have what happened first when the Word Bearers invaded Calth, and later when Guilliman fought against the Alpha Legion and Alpharius.

 

TDA

[Something Wycked]

Well, like I said at the end of my last post:

 

"Best practices" aren't set in stone as things that must be done; if you want to clear a building, we have ways to do that. If it becomes apparent that the advantage is in the opponent's favor, we're not playing fair. We're playing to win and out comes the real advantages- the same way that the Astartes escalate their response to meet the changing needs of the situation as instructed by the Codex.

Obviously "best practices" change when faced with a different opponent; in a battle against a "similar foe" there wouldn't be a need to clear buildings of insurgents since the war would be conducted more conventionally. That is, buildings will likely be destroyed rather than risk significant casualties against a highly organized, trained and equipped opponent.

 

The codex of course doesn't recommend "the same" tactics and "hoping for the best" when fighting against equal or superior enemies- it recommends an entirely different set of best practices that are eminently suited for the current enemy. TDA gives excellent examples of this.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Personaly i don't see in what the Codex Astartes makes Marines better then CSM...

 

The only thing that this book did,was to re-organiser the squads,Companies and ultimetly the Legions into Chapters.

 

For the rest its just common sens on Warfare tactics...nothing "Boogy" that makes that CSM can't do the same thing...

 

Also if Chaos guys would get theirs hands on it...what in the nine hells could they do with it?yeah use it as toilet paper,thats the only thing.because the info in this is only "usefull" to Astartes with their Land Speeders,Scouts and stuffs.

 

Give me Possesed with some wargear and Cult Termies,and i will show them what they can do with their Codex Astartes any say of the week...

 

Pff!,Codex Astartes my @ss...,bunch of rubbish written by a dying fool for a bunch of Loyal fools,nothing to brag about,it doesn't even comes close to the Poetry Book of Khârn the Betrayer!

[Son of Rawl]

Pff!,Codex Astartes my @ss...,bunch of rubbish written by a dying fool for a bunch of Loyal fools,nothing to brag about,it doesn't even comes close to the Poetry Book of Khârn the Betrayer!

 

Damn right, and I was amazed, and moved on how he rhymed Kill, Maim, Burn in a single stanza.

[Menkeroth]

Exactly)) and as we can see the knowledge of Codex Astartes doesn't allow loyalists to win every battle, and our AL is much more tactician))

[Something Wycked]

Not every battle, but won enough battles to keep Chaos mostly bottled up inside the Warp :lol:

 

If more Hurons show up, though, more Renegades or Traitors using the tactics in Codex Astartes... It will be much more difficult for the Loyalists to keep a grip on the Imperium's worlds.

[Menkeroth]

Perhaps. But do remember that for now forces of Imperium couldn't stop Abaddon and he broke breached the Cadian Gates and captured part of it. So Codex Astartes didn't help :wacko:

[Excessus]

The Codex is written with many "traitor" tactics as well, our side of the fence were very skilled at what they did as well as the loyalist scum was...

[minigun762]

Perhaps. But do remember that for now forces of Imperium couldn't stop Abaddon and he broke breached the Cadian Gates and captured part of it. So Codex Astartes didn't help <_<

 

I wouldn't say that that is a fair assumption.

You could just as easily say that without the Codex, the entire sector would have been lost or worse.

 

I think its easier to see the Codex as either a perfect divine tome of distilled awesomeness or a an outdated, obsolete manual of predictability than to understand that it has tremendous value and knowledge without it being all encompassing.

 

I find the creator's own words most telling. From the short story "Rules of Engagement",

 

What is so hard to accept?’ said Guilliman. ‘You followed my teachings, and they led you to defeat. If this and Calth have taught us anything it is that we must always be adaptable and never too hidebound in our thinking.’

 

‘But your teachings…’

 

‘Are yet flawed,’ said Guilliman. ‘No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.’

 

What we have is the greatest consolidation of effective military thinking known to mankind, pieced together from a variety of sources (some loyalists, some traitor) and used as the foundation for the vast majority of space marine chapters. That alone speaks volumes (pun not intended) of its importance. We couple this with an understanding that the galaxy changes, new foes, new tactics, increases or decreases in key resources etc and that what was once true or preferred may no longer be.

[TheDarkApostle]

Well spoken Minigun!

 

TDA

[Menkeroth]

Agreed. I'ts quite important thing for all the commanders. But it was also precisely said that for 10k years there're a lot of changes which Codex couldn't mention as it's a very ancient book.

[Something Wycked]

...archeological recoveries have proven that the Art of War had roughly achieved its current form by at least the early Han dynasty (206 BCE – 220 CE).

The (arguably) best military treatise of all time was written at least 1700 years before the advent of modern aircraft and it is no less applicable today than it was during Sun Tzu's time, even with all of the other technological and societal changes and advancements that have taken place since. The Codex Astartes has existed for a much broader timeframe in the 40k universe but far less has changed militarily. With two exceptions (Tau, Tyranids) the enemies of the Imperium are the same as they were at the time of the writing of the Codex. The Astartes are still using the same weaponry they were in the Heresy era, with a few additions and subtractions and the same can be said of all the enemies of the Imperium. Far, far less has changed in 40k since 30k than on our Earth from 220 CE to 2011 CE and Sun Tzu's work would be considered well below the level of excellence the Codex Astartes achieves.

Summed up, the only changes in 40k between the writing of the Codex Astartes and the current timeline is the introduction of the Tyranids and the Tau. You might be able to make a case for the Necrons, too, but I discount the importance of the Necrons and the Tau because of the experience gained in the Great Crusade fighting xenos and claiming the known galaxy for humanity.

 

When you really get right down to it, only the Tyranids represent something truly new that the Codex couldn't account for- and Marneus Calgar fixed that by tapping Chaplain Ortan Cassius and the Tyrannic War Veterans to educate the Chapter on how to properly fight this new threat. The Codex Astartes isn't just a single book that has been set in stone since Guilliman put pen to paper- it has been added to by whole libraries of practical experience by Ultramarine forces all over the galaxy fighting every known threat to the Imperium. A living document, as it were :)

[minigun762]

A living document, as it were ;)

 

That is actually an interesting point, because I wonder if some of the more rigid codex-adherent chapters would think it heresy or the height of hubris to "add" to their Primarch's most important work.

 

Not saying I think that is the right answer, but we see that difference chapters take a variety of views on just how to interpret the codex.

[Something Wycked]

The precedent has been set for many, many years (of 40k time) that the codex may be added to. What isn't clear is who is accorded the honor and how that decision is made. We can assume that Astartes held in high esteem may add pieces of Guilliman-like wisdom that become core, canon material while those who are not as famous may add to the Codex but their writings may not spread nearly as widely. It feels suitably grimdark to me that individual Astartes' battlefield experience is lost in a sea of other After Action Reports.

 

Given the variety of the 40k-verse, of course there will be at least one Chapter who are purists as regards to the Codex Astartes and they will use only what Guilliman himself wrote or perhaps the original text and some few early additions, not unlike the modern Bible with New Testament attached. That's really the core principle of 40k- variety. If there weren't differences, we wouldn't be interested ;)

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

What Traitor Legions have done to adapt, to counter Codex Astartes?

I'd say that'd vary from warband to warband, although I'd be surprised if most Lords and DPs even knew it existed.

IIRC, it is mentioned in Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, the context being that it was something Rowboat was working on, and Alpharius (or was it Omegon?) thought it was a silly idea.

[Legatus]

That is actually an interesting point, because I wonder if some of the more rigid codex-adherent chapters would think it heresy or the height of hubris to "add" to their Primarch's most important work.

The way I see it, the original tenets of the Codex are not altered at all. Ever. It would defeat the notion of "strict adherence" if every few centuries a revised version of the Codex was published. The core of the Codex, with it's organisational guidelines and tactical doctrines, is likely unchanged since its inception. What I assume to have been added over the millennia are countless battle reports (and detailes analyses and discussions of them), guidelines for the use of newly developed technology (such as Land Raider Crusaders or MK8 armour) and doctrines to combat newly discovered trheats, such as the Tau or Tyranids.

 

 

IIRC, it is mentioned in Index Astartes: Alpha Legion, the context being that it was something Rowboat was working on, and Alpharius (or was it Omegon?) thought it was a silly idea.

In the Index Astartes, Guilliman had started compiling the Codex Astartes during the course of the Great Crusade, and when Alpharius was found, he offered it to Alpharius to use it for his own Legion. In the recent Horus Heresy compilation, in the story "Rules of Engagement", Graham McNeill instead states that Guilliman writes the Codex on the spot during the Horus Heresy, and the Ultramarines who are described as testing these new doctrines in that story are as unfamiliar with it as anyone else would have been. That is certainly a drastic change from previous lore, and would mean that the tritor Legions probably wouldn't know about the Codex. In the previous lore they probably would have, since Guilliman had been developing it during the Crusade and had been sharing his idears with his brothers. But it seems that none of the traitor Legions has chosen to adopt the Codex doctrines back then. (Though I have allways assumed that the Luna Wolves and Emperor's Children doctrines would not have been very different from the Ultramarines', since these Legions were all concerned with overall performance and effectiveness, and not focused on one partcular type of warfare like a lot of the other Legions were.)