ZONKEY Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 How many dark angels turned traitor cause my mate keeps saying it was half a legion which is a lot of men to turn traitor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 You should ask you mate what his is basing his statement on. Most of the Legion was out serving their purpose; i.e. serving the Emperor in the Great Crusade. Fully 50% of the Legion was not babysitting Caliban, which is where the treachery took place. A token force(likely no more than 1,000 or 2,000 marines) was left on Caliban to train new recruits, of which most Loyalists would have been purged by the Traitors, and the majority of what marines then remained being killed during the assault on the planet and its destruction. We'll have to wait and see if more detailed information comes up in a yet-to-be-written Horus Heresy novel featuring the final treachery of Luther and the destruction of Caliban. So far as I recall, Gav Thorpe mentioned in a story that there are around either 130 or 230 of the Fallen left unaccounted for. I forget the exact number mentioned, and I forget which story it is mentioned in, but I am pretty sure it is a Gav Thorpe story so it is likely in Angels of Darkness or a short story(it is definitely not in The Purging of Kadillus). There are likely many more Fallen than that now, seeing as the Fallen probably escaped Caliban with at least some of the Legion's new recruits and geneseed stocks which were certainly being maintained there for implantation into the new Calibanite recruits being trained, not to mention that Cypher and other Fallen acquired an entire vault full of the Chapter's geneseed in another story. The Fallen could technically number in the thousands themselves at this point, if newer recruits were to be factored in. Fabius Bile and other rogue Apothecaries certainly exist to make it happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2851658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 I dont believe the theft of the geenesheed was for a plan to 'make' more fallen.Technically they are not all together neither they support one another.Others are pirates,others freelancers others have fallen to chaos...Also i believe that if there were only 1-2k marines stationed on calibban they wouldnt have blown up the place.Numbers would have been on the side of the loyalists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2851665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Read Angels of Darkness again. Apparently there are more than few of the Fallen that work together towards their unknown goal, and it would be unsurprising to learn that many more of the scattered Fallen are not as wayward as one might think. As to the stealing of geneseed, the main reason to steal it is to make more marines. The Chaos Legions seek to do this all the time, but it is very hard to accomplish, seeing as most geneseed stocks are very well protected. That's why there are so many stories about the theft of geneseed among the various novels. I can think of three off-hand. Geneseed surely isn't stolen to then be used as the Chaos version of caviar and be spread on crackers. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2851677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 In my very humbol opion two thousand to twenty five hundred the core the lion sent back with luthor and maybe the latest batch of newly created marines not sent to reenforce the legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2852153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Read Angels of Darkness again. Apparently there are more than few of the Fallen that work together towards their unknown goal, and it would be unsurprising to learn that many more of the scattered Fallen are not as wayward as one might think. As to the stealing of geneseed, the main reason to steal it is to make more marines. The Chaos Legions seek to do this all the time, but it is very hard to accomplish, seeing as most geneseed stocks are very well protected. That's why there are so many stories about the theft of geneseed among the various novels. I can think of three off-hand. Geneseed surely isn't stolen to then be used as the Chaos version of caviar and be spread on crackers. :lol: I dont say that geenesheed is used as delicacy neither that the fallen dont work together.What i say is that there is no proof even in angels of darkness that the fallen build more fallen.What for anyways?Those who turned to chaos have their own or joined other warbands and those who didnt join chaos are roamers mostly.The only glue they have is their plans.And there is no definitive evidence that there is a universal plan of the fallen.If i remember it right Astelan killed a couple of his 'brothers' no? The only one who seems to have a plan is Cypher and for some reason the others gather around him. Do not perceive the fallen as a group or chapter or legion or army because they are not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2852616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I mentioned this is another thread that died :P I think that the answer is closer to 2000. If you figure at the start of Fallen Angels that Luther withheld 4000 new marines, and of the original 500 sent back that puts it at 4500. Then it says Luther has the geneseed acceptance rate at 98 percent and under a 2 year time table. Given 6 years of the heresy that gives 3 possible batches that he could have created. so 16000 thousand max? Then Angel of Darkness says their was a schism on the planet which many were killed. Then the Legion shows up and kills a lot.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2852929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Read Angels of Darkness again. Apparently there are more than few of the Fallen that work together towards their unknown goal, and it would be unsurprising to learn that many more of the scattered Fallen are not as wayward as one might think. As to the stealing of geneseed, the main reason to steal it is to make more marines. The Chaos Legions seek to do this all the time, but it is very hard to accomplish, seeing as most geneseed stocks are very well protected. That's why there are so many stories about the theft of geneseed among the various novels. I can think of three off-hand. Geneseed surely isn't stolen to then be used as the Chaos version of caviar and be spread on crackers. ;) I dont say that geenesheed is used as delicacy neither that the fallen dont work together.What i say is that there is no proof even in angels of darkness that the fallen build more fallen.What for anyways?Those who turned to chaos have their own or joined other warbands and those who didnt join chaos are roamers mostly.The only glue they have is their plans.And there is no definitive evidence that there is a universal plan of the fallen.If i remember it right Astelan killed a couple of his 'brothers' no? The only one who seems to have a plan is Cypher and for some reason the others gather around him. Do not perceive the fallen as a group or chapter or legion or army because they are not. Surely they are not. Mostly. Astellan did kill a few "wrong-thinkers" I think, but it is pointless to mention him as an example, as he is a lone rogue anyways. Cypher, however, is an entirely different animal altogether. The Fallen gravitate around him(unsurprising considering his past position within the Legion), and it is he who has the geneseed stocks. It is no great leap to assume that Cypher is more than just a miserly geneseed kleptomaniac(i.e. he is probably making more followers). :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2852961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I doupt it.To me it seems more likely that he uses the geenesheed as a bargaining chip to enlist the services of chaos marines.Plus damaging the geenestocks of a chapter is a serious emotional blow and might go a long way since we see the after affects of cyphers complex plan. There is also nothing to indicate in angels of darkness that the gene vaults were the prime target.Indeed the seed was stolen but the priority as i understood it was to destroy the marines and the entire world for some undisclosed as of yet reason. Closing i dont believe that the fallen need geeneseed.They dont posses the facilities and the time to recruit and equip new marines.They are not a chapter.They are not even a warband.I have yet to find a source that mentions more than ten gathered in a single sector. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2852988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 the Fallen where targeting gene-vaults because at the time the 13th Great crusade was going on. Abbadon was gathering Marine Gen-seed. Cypher was gathering it for him and pissing the DA was a bonus. So it wasn't to create more Fallen per se but to create more space marines... Like Piscina, Hydra Cordatus was raided of gene-vaults. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Excactly,on the plus side you can always bargain for the geeneseed and a chaos warmaster has a nice selection of goodies to choose from! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There is also nothing to indicate in angels of darkness that the gene vaults were the prime target.Indeed the seed was stolen but the priority as i understood it was to destroy the marines and the entire world for some undisclosed as of yet reason. You ought to read the book again. The part of the story I am referring to is all about luring the marines off-planet and then securing the geneseed. The virus trap, which only was released once the environmentally sealed area was entered and something done to activate it, was just Cypher being spiteful, as it wasn't necessary at all(i.e. Cypher's mission of acquiring the geneseed had already been accomplished). If Cypher wanted the populace of Piscina IV to be eradicated, he would have simply unleashed the virus. Kind of a no-brainer there. The trap was very purposely put in for the marines to have to make the hard choice- save themselves and kill off the population of one of the Chapter's recruiting worlds(a double dagger to the heart, seeing as that would would mean the loss of the geneseed and of one of the Chapter's recruiting worlds), or eat it themselves(an only slightly lesser double dagger to the heart, seeing as who would was there who would have to fall on their swords) and save the populace/the Chapter's future recruits. Some nice thought went into the actions of Cypher to be sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 There is also nothing to indicate in angels of darkness that the gene vaults were the prime target.Indeed the seed was stolen but the priority as i understood it was to destroy the marines and the entire world for some undisclosed as of yet reason. You ought to read the book again. The part of the story I am referring to is all about luring the marines off-planet and then securing the geneseed. The virus trap, which only was released once the environmentally sealed area was entered and something done to activate it, was just Cypher being a vengeful, as it wasn't necessary at all(i.e. Cypher's mission of acquiring the geneseed had already been accomplished). If Cypher wanted the populace of Piscina IV to be eradicated, he would have simply unleashed the virus. Kind of a no-brainer there. The trap was very purposely put in for the marines to have to make the hard choice- save themselves and kill off the population of one of the Chapter's recruiting worlds(a double dagger to the heart, seeing as that would would mean the loss of the geneseed and of one of the Chapter's recruiting worlds), or eat it themselves(an only slightly lesser double dagger to the heart, seeing as who would was there who would have to fall on their swords) and save the populace/the Chapter's future recruits. Some nice thought went into the actions of Cypher to be sure. Was that Cypher though, or just the guys following him who couldn't make up their minds (and that Cypher later decided to ditch)? I had always assumed it was Cypher's goons, who had an ax to grind with the loyalists and wanted to be petty. Cypher had already accomplished his task and, being a (possibly) more benevolent Fallen marine than his fellows, left these other Fallen to their own devices (so was my assumption of what happened). Of course, I could just as easily see a vengeful malevolent Cypher leaving the trap in quiet bemusement of how he was forcing the Dark Angels to soil their own hands with innocent blood. (This is part of the beauty of not knowing who Cypher really is as a person.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyon Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Well the real answer, as always, is that no Dark Angels turned traitor. It was the foul forces of chaos that destroyed Caliban. It was a tragic loss to the legion. Now let me lead you down this dark corridor to a dungeon room so we can straighten this all out... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yes indeed,all those assumptions have credit if it was Cypher(and to be honest we all think it was really).Perhaps it was easy to contain the virus and it was a delima that he wanted to force upon the marines.Or it was as simple as the fact that he knew the choice of the marines even before they chose.After all a chaplain was among them. To me answering anything about Cypher the easy way is horribly wrong.The man is an enigma,none can be sure of his actions. How can a man that seeks the emperors forgiveness sacrifice millions and most greavous of all brother marines? How can he destabilise entire subsectors with his actions? And many many more answers.Giving the simple answer is a mistake IMHO. Back on topic:Astelan told us that every chapter in the dark angels legion was shadowed and eventually replaced by the Lion and called back to calliban. If i got that right wouldnt there be more than 2k marines?To me it would be at least triple in number. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 @ Brother Immolator I remember that Astellan said they were shadowed, but not the part of all being sent back.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Piscina IV is not a recruiting world. Piscina V is. However DAs are honor bound to protect Piscina IV due to it being their center of operations in this system and have a long standing presence -not to mention a considerable population. In fact the beginning of the book describes the selection process of potential recruits from Piscina V and their transfer to Piscina IV killing some Orks in the process. The geneseed thing is a bit of a mystery to me. Did Cypher need that to produce new Marines? Did he want to give it/trade it/sell it to other Chaos Marines that have the means to actually use it? Does he even have the capacity to do such a thing himself? (I doubt that). Or was it just an attempt to give a blow the "production" of new DAs that he probably views as his Nemesis? Or was it an act of defiance? The more I think about this book the more I like it... Regarding the actual number of Fallen I think Augustus (as he mentions earlier in this thread) has a good point. However I'm not sure about the amount of time the Heresy actually lasted (was it 6 years or 10 years or anything in between? I think concensus is 7 years actually but not sure about that either). Also from the marines they trained over this period some of the earlier ones should have been sent to the front line. So the number I'd go with is in the region of 5,000 (maybe only the last batch of recruits actually aligned itself with Luther and not all of them at that). Now assuming that the total size of the Legion was in the 80-100k bracket we're looking at 5-6% of the total Legion rebelling - nowhere close to the 50% the OP feared. I wish we had a more definite answer but so far I'm going with that. Even if two batches were withheld we are looking for something south of 10% of the total Legion. I can live with that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 That recruiting bit sounds vaguely familial. Piscina V is a more feral/harsh environment world I think. The older fluff states the the DA build temples on worlds to act as recruiting centers for the world's populace, and that one such temple was built on Piscina IV. Gav added a bit more detail/altered it every so slightly then in AoD; i.e. the temple is on Piscinia IV, but the Chapter is interested in the more feral/hardy folk of Piscina V, rather than the softer, more civilized folk of Piscina IV. I don't recall the book stating that he was gathering geneseed for Abaddon, nor is it mentioned in Codex: Eye of Terror. I don't know if it anything related to this is mentioned anywhere in the Eye of Terror campaign fluff, or in the Medusa Campaign fluff either. I probably should have copied that stuff into a Word doc at some point, but I didn't. :D I'll have to read AoD again though, keeping an eye out for the more interesting/informative tidbits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Wasn't Cypher luring the Dark Angels around the Eye of Terror to place them in key positions to halt chaos advances? remember reading something like that somewhere or other Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236594-how-many-dark-angels-turned-traitor/#findComment-2853939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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