malika666 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I was wondering if there is any indication on the size of the current Traitor Legions. We know that during the Great Crusade they numbered in the tens of thousands (close to 100k). During the Heresy Legions such as the Word Bearers greatly increased in numbers (according to ADB). However, what about after the Heresy? Most Loyalist Legions have lost huge numbers. I would assume something similar for the Traitor Legions. Combined with their degrading geneseed their numbers must really be decreasing more and more. So yeah, my question thus is if there is any official info on the matter. And even if there isn't, what would you speculate? Also, let me know if you're speculating or referring to official info! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Speculation: 1-10k all legions. Based on the serious loses, one would of expected following the heresy and then the massive civil conflicts that took place in the Eye started by the Emperor's Children. However nearly all Legions have broken down into broken into warbands. (Word Bearers may still be united I haven't read Dark Creed.) Official: However, the only time I have seen a number reference is 1st war of Armageddon. 50k berzerkers following Angron. It was stated not all were World Eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 For the sake of argument though, the warp acts differentley to real space (as we all know) so one marine may go in have his gene seed harvested then come out. 1 real space year later (possibly any ammount of warp years later) in which time a vast new array of chaos space marines have been trained turning 1 into say 100 (just for estimates) but they may also be wiped out in the waro and need armour and supplies, I immagine the numbers are always fluctuating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 That is one hell of a run on sentence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 The only two legions that seem to still be as actual 'Legion' are the Iron Warriors and the Word Bearers, although the Word Bearers have a tendency to intra-host (Their version of a chapter) fighting, and the Iron Warriors seem to enjoy blowing themselves to pieces. Other than that, they both still have clear organisation, tactics and recruitment. The Word Bearers recruit from the most faithful of their zealots, and the Iron Warriors from the most hardy of their slaves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I don't have the book on me but the novel Dark Creed hints that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers around 10:1 and if I remember correctly, there are roughly 6-8000 Word Bearers taking part in the story which only represents a portion of their total strength. This would put the Black Legion at 60,000 at the most conservative estimate and I would not be surprised at all if the true number was 3 times that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 No way in hell could the BL outnumber the WB. As we know, the WB love to spread rumours (Practically Tzeenchian in their nonsense) and just generally :lol: about a lot. Still, they are shown to have the most 'efficient' recruitment i.e; throw a coupla million youths at the Imperials, turn whoevers left into Astartes, versus most Legions. The BL on the other hand, although they must recruit like crazy, with all those raids, is frequently mentioned as being woefully under-strength and populated with outsiders. Although, to be fair, if we're arguing over BL, then the BL, and to a lesser extent their allied legions, are going to have a HUGE influx of recruits thanks to the Iron Warriors attack on Hydra Cordatus. So, i guess words gotten around, and the WB were counting the potential marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The biggest of the Chaos Legions were about a hundred thousand, give or take, with all the attached fleet capacity, materiel and supply chains to go with it. Given a normal rate of attrition for ten millennia of constant warfare without easy access to re-supply, I would be surprised if even ten percent of the original Legionnaires exist. The Black Legion is always being mentioned as "under-strength" or somesuch, but is always consistently the prime mover of the forces of Chaos in the realspace galaxy. It is in this that the true character of the forces of Chaos as represented in the fluff is never effectively represented on the tabletop since Chaos players generally want Chaos Space Marines only. (Similarly to how nearly all Daemonhunters lists were 'Pure GK' until GW just said 'fine, here's your GK Codex.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 it really depends on how much losses they have taken during the seige on Terra. and how many of the human followers they have left (their artificiers etc) as time flows differently in the warp and to many traitors it might only have been decades instead of a millennium. like the Night Lords in ADB's novels, who to them it has only been a few decades but their company has been reduced to less then 40 at the beginning of the first novel it also depends on their ability to replenish their supplies of armor and weaponry and their ability to make new SMs. but all in all the true SMs would be much less than what they had before they escape to the warp Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2852989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think its safe to assume that whatever is left of the various legions all have very different amounts of marines remaining. Black Legion is listed as the highest due primarily to Abaddon but also their recruiting of both new recruits and defectors from the Imperium. Other legions like the Emperor's Children and World Eaters are likely tiny fractions of their former selves and those fractions are scattered. We often talk about how damaging the infighting amongst chaos marines must be to their numbers but remember that loyalist marines are almost always fighting some sort of conflict somewhere in the galaxy whereas traitor marines don't have that kind of responsibility. The constant attrition of fighting thousands of minor and major conflicts could easily outstrip a few feuds in the eye of terror. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2853163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 and the black legion also recruit from other chaos legions like WB and IW and it has been written that only Huron Blackheart has close to what Abaddon has in terms of numbers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2853800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Huron has Abaddon's numbers? Or even anywhere near it? That doesn't make much sense. He is a pirate emperor, not the leader of the most influential Legion ever. Where did this info come from? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2853803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Note that with GW 10k is not always 10k is not always 10k. For instance, 10k marines is not 2k marines + 8k traitor guard and beastmen and mutants is not 10k beastmen and mutants and dregs TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2853827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphariusomegon20 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Huron has Abaddon's numbers? Or even anywhere near it? That doesn't make much sense. He is a pirate emperor, not the leader of the most influential Legion ever. Where did this info come from? Blood Reaver. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2862894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The current number of Alpha Legionnaires: Unknown hehe Even if they hadn't been declared wiped out three times already there still wouldn't be much info on their numbers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2862907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The largest of the Traitor Legions, the Word Bearers, is said to have numbered ~150k at full strength (pre-Heresy). Given the horrendous losses that many of the legions will have taken in the Siege of Terra and the subsequent Scouring and then 10,000 years of infighting, raiding and general conflict without any reliable means of reinforcement and resupply I'd be amazed if any of them can muster more than a few thousand marines. But this is fiction so I guess the real answer is that they are as big as they need to be for the purposes of whatever story is being written and the overall requirements of the setting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2862916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dremen Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I could swear, and Lion Bless me for admiting this, that the Entry for Fabius Bile said he had gained the ability to clone marines when I read it. He sells that skill to warbands in exchange for his various needs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2862920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 The largest of the Traitor Legions, the Word Bearers, is said to have numbered ~150k at full strength (pre-Heresy). Given the horrendous losses that many of the legions will have taken in the Siege of Terra and the subsequent Scouring and then 10,000 years of infighting, raiding and general conflict without any reliable means of reinforcement and resupply I'd be amazed if any of them can muster more than a few thousand marines. But this is fiction so I guess the real answer is that they are as big as they need to be for the purposes of whatever story is being written and the overall requirements of the setting. Oh I bet they have plenty of religious cults or slave-worlds to recruit from, besides, no fluff anywhere has stated that the apothecaries just disappeared at the heresy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2862968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Huron has Abaddon's numbers? Or even anywhere near it? That doesn't make much sense. He is a pirate emperor, not the leader of the most influential Legion ever. Where did this info come from? Blood Reaver. Why wouldn't Huron have those numbers... or even more? Even in the Graham McNeil short story it is evident Huron IS the future of Chaos. The Legions hopefully will continue to find ways of gaining geneseed, and I suppose 'new' Legion members, but Huron is going about it the other way.... he recruits fresh blood. Chapter defectors seek his audience, and Chaos rewards him for this. It's a 'win win'. Huron gains favour, Chapters seek Huron, Huron gives good parking spots out in the warp. NEVER underestimate the power of good parking spots near work. (Parking in the warp is a killer.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2863046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh I bet they have plenty of religious cults or slave-worlds to recruit from, besides, no fluff anywhere has stated that the apothecaries just disappeared at the heresy... It's not recruits that would be in short supply, it's the geneseed to transform them into marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2863073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 It's not recruits that would be in short supply, it's the geneseed to transform them into marines. Thats less of an issue when there are so many loyalist running around just waiting to "donate" theirs to the Chaos cause. :) I remember that being the case in the previous codex, Chaos Marines siding with the local population against loyalists and after killing them, the Chaos Marines tore out the geneseeds and explained to the (few) surviving mortals how they would join them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2863135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Huron has Abaddon's numbers? Or even anywhere near it? That doesn't make much sense. He is a pirate emperor, not the leader of the most influential Legion ever. Where did this info come from? ADB's Blood Reaver. most traitors hate and distrust the Black Legion and Abbadon's constant failures which basically involves wasting other legions resources and CSMs does not reflect well on him. and Huron's empire is another safe haven for traitors and traitors that dock at his ports basically have to do stuff for him in one form or another to either fix their ships or even just to survive so he gets a cosntant supply of new recruits plus he doesn't just throw away their lives on some stupid black Crusade that to the outsider have been nothing but failures Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2863275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 most traitors hate and distrust the Black Legion and Abbadon's constant failures which basically involves wasting other legions resources and CSMs does not reflect well on him. Abbadon's always been noted for gaining the grudging respect of other Traitors - I think Talos and crew are the exception rather than the rule here. Dude's a uniter, not a divider! It's what makes him so dangerous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2864661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 most traitors hate and distrust the Black Legion and Abbadon's constant failures which basically involves wasting other legions resources and CSMs does not reflect well on him. Abbadon's always been noted for gaining the grudging respect of other Traitors - I think Talos and crew are the exception rather than the rule here. Dude's a uniter, not a divider! It's what makes him so dangerous. I still see Huron as more the 'uniter' if there is such a thing in chaos. Huron's more like the politician, the charismatic chaos salesman. I'm sure he rules with an iron fist, but the guy has the biggest hotel in the warp. Great wrestling matches on his planet, free parking, and awesome entertainment. To me, well... I see Abe as more the type to say. " I need new tires....YOU over there. Take your crappy little warband, and I need you to steel some tires off that Imperial Cadillac Cruiser over there. If you don't do it, I'm going to crush your crappy warband out of the warp." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2865017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I enjoyed that description Prot. Huron is really being pushed in as an alternative to Abaddon when it comes to traitor leadership. I can't say that he is his equal yet but he is very much a rising star whereas Abaddon has the image of a failure who is past his prime. It will be interesting to see if that pans out in the future or if Abaddon is playing the long game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/236645-size-of-the-traitor-legion-post-heresy/#findComment-2865428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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