Size of the Traitor Legion (post-Heresy)?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Actually, I more see it as Abaddon being a combination of the above strategy and "well, we're running low on lascannons... You, warband over there! We've got a lot of vindicators for you, if you go and get us a shipment of lascannons".

[Arkangilos]

I remember reading somewhere that Abbadon did hold the fate of the Galaxy in his hand, and he purposely let it slip or something like that. It could have been deamonhood, but I think he has a plan.

[Lexington]

To me, well... I see Abe as more the type to say. " I need new tires....YOU over there. Take your crappy little warband, and I need you to steel some tires off that Imperial Cadillac Cruiser over there. If you don't do it, I'm going to crush your crappy warband out of the warp."

Eh, don't see it - Abbadon's been at the forefront of all his Crusades, remember.

 

[...] Abaddon has the image of a failure who is past his prime.

This image is prominent in the fanbase/certain online communities, but it's not one which is borne out of the background - Abbadon's the most successful Chaos Lord since Horus. His Black Crusades, to our knowledge, have all succeeded in their objectives, done real damage to the Imperium, and gained the Despoiler terrifying resources. His latest attack battered and nearly broke the Cadian Gate, which has been the only thing holding back a second, even more devestating Heresy, for time immemorial. Now he's tooling around the galaxy in his own personal, pointy Death Star, accompanied by Gork knows what else, completely unchecked, while the Imperium itself dedicates unprecedented resources to battle back a war he's no longer involved in. If you can qualify him as a failure, I dare say your standards are a tad high. :rolleyes:

 

Really, Abbadon's image as a failure comes, I think, out of a misinterpretation of his goals. The end game for the Despoiler isn't to set some sector aflame and cackle uproariously while stroking his Very Evil Goatee. He wants Earth - the most heavily-guarded fortress in the galaxy, a place that no other invading force has even gotten close to in 10,000 years. He's building something that will allow him to personally kick down the doors of the Eternity Gate, and smash asunder the Emperor and his Throne. The Traitors call it "The Long War" for a reason, and Abbadon takes those words to heart more than perhaps any other.

[minigun762]

Well said Lex. I agree and that is why I said the image of his failures.

 

I think he understands the true scope of what he is going after and that it can't be won quickly. The Imperium is a truly massive target and the best way to take it down is by a thousand little cuts to stress and weaken it prior to the final blow to the head.

[Excessus]

It's a pity they have removed several parts of the fluff from Abby's entry... :yes:

 

Slaughtering the BAngels at Mackan, for instance...

[malika666]

Removed from where?

[Excessus]

from the newer codexes...

[Lexington]

I agree and that is why I said the image of his failures.

Totally. Just think it's an important distinction to make, especially 'round here, where the "Abbadon's a failure" meme seems to hold a lot of sway. Players may see him as undeserving of his reputation, but the denizens of the 40K universe would probably disagree. ^_^

[Dreachon]

True but that comes from people who never knew what the real objectieves were for each black crusade, 13th was meant for crushing cadia and despite GW's attempts to prevnt it, Cadia is just a ruin, the sector is in flame, the pylons have been reduced to rubble.

 

Abbadon knows fully well that the imperium can never ever be destroyed by a single blow, it's too large for that.

[Prot]

Eh, don't see it - Abbadon's been at the forefront of all his Crusades, remember.

 

Yow, talk about proving my point.

 

 

Well said Lex. I agree and that is why I said the image of his failures.

 

I think he understands the true scope of what he is going after and that it can't be won quickly. The Imperium is a truly massive target and the best way to take it down is by a thousand little cuts to stress and weaken it prior to the final blow to the head.

 

There's only one way Abe is going to win this guy over, and it's with a MASSIVE re-write of how he does things. Everything I've read about Huron pretty much, for one reason on another, just leaves me thinkning: This guy is going somewhere. Everything I read about Abe has me thinking: Why is this guy in charge? He just reminds me THAT guy... we all know THAT guy. The dude in charge and if it weren't for some VERY competent people around him, he'd be nothing.

 

I will digress and say that unfortunately a LOT of what I view of Abe's "accomplishments" is a result of some very poor writing. The way Huron has been handled lately.... if you guys have read any of the last 3 years worth of fiction, he is definitely a plotter. A manipulator of circumstances.

 

Abe is written far more like a 'Do this 'cause I say so'. His so called ability to unite the factions seems to be only by fear mongering. I'm actually surprised Abe's conquests ACTUALLY make it out of the warp before everyone has killed each other.

 

Again, whomever is tasked with writing the Chaos Legions fiction has his hands full. Abe needs to be cleaned up.

[minigun762]

In my eyes, the relationship between Huron and Abaddon is the same as the tv trope of the older, established boss/general/CEO and the new rising star, up and comer hot shot intern/captain/new hire who thinks that the older guy is out of touch and obsolete. They inevitably clash and the new guy finds out that the older guy isn't the weakling he first thought.

 

At the moment, I believe that there is still an order of magnitude difference between Abaddon's power and Huron's. That is not to say that things couldn't change, and change quickly but Huron comes across more as the big fish in a small(er) pond.

 

That said, I love the fact that there is a figurehead for both the older, original traitor marines and the newer renegades and the potential for future conflict that will bring.

 

Of course I'm one of those people that think the only true leaders of Chaos are the surviving Primarchs. The rest of them are just placeholders and seat warmers.

[Prot]

In my eyes, the relationship between Huron and Abaddon is the same as the tv trope of the older, established boss/general/CEO and the new rising star, up and comer hot shot intern/captain/new hire who thinks that the older guy is out of touch and obsolete. They inevitably clash and the new guy finds out that the older guy isn't the weakling he first thought.

 

Ok, you had me.... but you forgot: And then the older guy realizes the younger guy had more going for him from the start, and they end up fighting to an inevitable stand still.

 

The thing is, Huron IMO is fighting for the future of the... -resistance-. Abe is still punching guys in the junk for lunch money.

 

Okay, maybe it's not that bad.

[Ju'kosian]

I don't Huron has what it takes to command members of the "first legions" instead of his bunch of renegades..

yes there are "Astral claws" who where once part of a traitor legoin, but as in "Blood reaver" you can see that they kinda look down on the renegades..

 

However Abaddon really never commands anything, he just makes deals and deals to keep everybody happy so they would follow him in his failures..

 

Too bad our primarchs don't do anything these days, (besides getting their ass kicked by a grey knight in the new fluff.. yes I'm looking at you Mortarion) otherwise there would be some more legional structure..

At least for the legions who still have a living primarch offcourse

 

about the legion sizes after the heresy, remember that in the new chaos codex (current one) there's a piece of fluff about the Dominion of Fire where Angron exits the eye leading 50k bezerkers.. Guess he has been recruiting in those few millenia ;-)

[Lord_Starscream]

I think Abbadon is a failure. Time has a reason behind this, given he couldn't crack Cadia for 10,000 years. On top of that much of what has happened for him, in my opinion, has been luck, and competent people around him. Competent people who he often kills.

 

The worst trait Abbadon has is he is a paranoid idiot, much like Joseph Stalin. "You did very well my minion... too well." And suddenly he needs a new lieutenant as the old one has been strung up by his own inards. He does not strike me as competent, in any of the fiction I've read with him in it (And I've been playing since late 2nd edition). He does not strike me as successful nor competent, and quite frankly I like his portrayal in Soulhunter the most, because he's shown to overextend himself, which is something I also think fits his personality.

 

Horus, Horus jr. and Loken were all failures!... ALL OF THEM! BUT I WILL NOT BE!

 

Well good for you Abbadon. Good you you.

 

 

 

Anyway, to be on subject, as far as I know the Word Bearers are the largest legion, and the Black Legion may be stronger due to not being just the Black Legion. Many renegades may not fly the Eye of Horus, but are under the banner of their 8 pointed star.

[TheDarkApostle]

yes there are "Astral claws" who where once part of a traitor legoin, but as in "Blood reaver" you can see that they kinda look down on the renegades..

Except the Astral Claws were never part of a Legion, but rather the surviving members of Huron's own Chapter, the Astral Claws. :P

 

TDA

[Ju'kosian]

I meant Red corsairs, not Astral Claws.. my bad

 

I agree on the fact abaddon is quite a failure, you can also see that in the HH novels.. Maybe it's time for the fluff to move on a bit, and just kill him..

Maybe Matt Ward can write up a new epic chaos champion..

[Bearingtheword]

You're never gonna convince those who view Abaddon as a failure of anything different....No matter how many times it's pointed out that time in the warp moves differently, so that 10,000 years to the Imperium is not likely 10,000 years to the traitor legions...No matter how many times it's pointed out that there is and always has been an inter-legion rivalry and petty jealousies that colour the view point of any non-Black Legionaire.....No matter how many times it's pointed out that he accomplished the goals he wanted to accomplish with the crusades, including culling the numbers of the other legions he placed at the forefront....they are just not going to see it.....And here's why I think that is:

 

I have noticed in reading the various codices that everything, including the xenos ones are written from an Imperial perspectives and most times it is coloured with Imperial propoganda....For a prime example just re-read the Defiler page in the current C:CSM. The Necron Codex is the same way....Black Library fluff is coloured by the viewpoint of whatever legion/warband that said book is about.

 

Personally I don't view Abby as a failure. I think he's biding his time and making inroads where he can. I also think that there will be a coming conflict between him and Huron, and that would most likely be thanks to the mixed reaction that Huron got. But then again what did GW expect when they jumped on the whole Pirates of the Caribbean bandwagon...

 

As to the original topic: I think that the Black Legion and the Word Bearers are probably the two largest of the remaining forces in the Warp, barring the daemons themselves....Not sure on what those numbers would be at, but I can't see them being too low considering the harvesting and reuse of geneseed that must be happening. Remember, in current fluff, it has been stated that the geneseed only needs to stay within the marine long enough for it to mature, then it can be extracted and reused. (trying to recall exactly which books I read that in) The marine does not have to be dead to have it extracted. So between that and harvesting the fallen loyalists seed, they could easily keep their forces up close to pre-heresy levels....

 

Just my 2 coppers on the subject....

 

~BtW

[Lord_Starscream]

You're never gonna convince those who view Abaddon as a failure of anything different....No matter how many times it's pointed out that time in the warp moves differently, so that 10,000 years to the Imperium is not likely 10,000 years to the traitor legions...No matter how many times it's pointed out that there is and always has been an inter-legion rivalry and petty jealousies that colour the view point of any non-Black Legionaire.....No matter how many times it's pointed out that he accomplished the goals he wanted to accomplish with the crusades, including culling the numbers of the other legions he placed at the forefront....they are just not going to see it.....And here's why I think that is:

 

I have noticed in reading the various codices that everything, including the xenos ones are written from an Imperial perspectives and most times it is coloured with Imperial propoganda....For a prime example just re-read the Defiler page in the current C:CSM. The Necron Codex is the same way....Black Library fluff is coloured by the viewpoint of whatever legion/warband that said book is about.

 

Personally I don't view Abby as a failure. I think he's biding his time and making inroads where he can. I also think that there will be a coming conflict between him and Huron, and that would most likely be thanks to the mixed reaction that Huron got. But then again what did GW expect when they jumped on the whole Pirates of the Caribbean bandwagon...

 

As to the original topic: I think that the Black Legion and the Word Bearers are probably the two largest of the remaining forces in the Warp, barring the daemons themselves....Not sure on what those numbers would be at, but I can't see them being too low considering the harvesting and reuse of geneseed that must be happening. Remember, in current fluff, it has been stated that the geneseed only needs to stay within the marine long enough for it to mature, then it can be extracted and reused. (trying to recall exactly which books I read that in) The marine does not have to be dead to have it extracted. So between that and harvesting the fallen loyalists seed, they could easily keep their forces up close to pre-heresy levels....

 

Just my 2 coppers on the subject....

 

~BtW

 

 

But I don't see that.

 

I see him honestly more as a man trying desperately to avoid the fate of his former, and his closest brothers. Not only that, I see him as a man that has been manipulated (how he got his Daemon Sword for instance...) and someone who is not entirely patient. His defeat in personal combat to Eldrad Ulthran is kinda poop, especially given that Eldrad is not known as a super badass with you know, fighting in hand to hand. He is certainly a threatening individual, who uses fear and intimidation as a primary weapon to get what he wants. But he is also, for all his cunning, still brutish, still impatient, still unwavering to a fault. He's psychotic, killing valuable assets due to their own competence in some cases, and not their incompetence. He is a one man show.

 

Any organization that centralized on him, with its sub-commanders in so much fear of their overlord, is setting sail for fail.

 

I see the Black Crusades not as a complete failure, but as unsuccessful. Many of his plots and plans have not panned out, I'd go as far as to say the majority. I am sure he was more competent in the past as well, but he's now completely paranoid. He has no inhibitions to rash behavior which may not be in his best interest. I don't think his personal actions are always thought out. Going "I'm bidding my time" is all good, until you realize that his forces and himself have been upset many times. Many

 

Abbadon wishes to be greater than Horus. He will not be. Unfortunately for Abbadon he will fail, just as his brothers did in his eyes, perhaps he already has. I am not claiming he is useless by any means, but he does not strike me as a man who can hold things together once he does 'break' out of the Eye. And I think one of the biggest reasons he can't break out of the eye is the iron grip he has on his own subcommanders. Command must be firm, not overwhelming.

[Valtonis]

it is not anti-abbadon fanbois that think abbadon is a failure.

in the novels alot of traitor legions see abbadon as a failure, he might say that those that do not believe in him just doesn't see his long term plan but the fact is that yes, they don't see his long term plan and all they see is him failing

 

and the fact that time flows differently in the warp is another detriment to him. to some of the traitors that took part in his black crusade it might only be months or just a couple of years since the last crusade and he would be asking them to have another one.

when they still have not recovered from the last and the losses are still fresh in their minds

 

GW should just have him lead another black crusade, fail, destroy him for his failure and let Perturabo lead Chaos

[Lord_Starscream]

it is not anti-abbadon fanbois that think abbadon is a failure.

in the novels alot of traitor legions see abbadon as a failure, he might say that those that do not believe in him just doesn't see his long term plan but the fact is that yes, they don't see his long term plan and all they see is him failing

 

and the fact that time flows differently in the warp is another detriment to him. to some of the traitors that took part in his black crusade it might only be months or just a couple of years since the last crusade and he would be asking them to have another one.

when they still have not recovered from the last and the losses are still fresh in their minds

 

GW should just have him lead another black crusade, fail, destroy him for his failure and let Perturabo lead Chaos

 

Sadly, the Black Legion will always be front and center for 'leading' Chaos. Its just what is. So what does this mean?

 

If Abbadon dies, he will be replaced by another Black Legionary. No Night Lord, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, or anyone else for that matter who isn't a Black Legion member, will replace him. I'm fine with this as well.

 

But in all honesty if anything I wish GW would move away from Centralized Chaos around the Black Legion as a whole. I'd want to see Chaos becoming more of a threat from all the factions, not just the big bad Black Crusade. I'd love to see Word Bearers make a mad Dark Crusade, Iron Warriors leading a seiging campaign, Night Lords raiding further than thought before, all the while with Abbadon or his successor left not as a minor player, still being a big player overall (Just as big and bad as the others), but one actor amongst many.

 

I know some of you will say "Well thats what it is right now", but honestly its really not. Thats not the feeling you get from the backstory, you get the feeling that Abbadon is at the head of the ship. And in all honesty he's not entirely deserving of that >.>....

[Artein]

Abaddon is not a failure. Chaos Gods do not keep failures as their champions. They turn them into spawns or just kill them.

And Abaddon is a champion of all (main) four Chaos Gods.

 

You should bear in mind that Abaddon's target is Terra itself. The mightiest fortress in the entire Galaxy, the one that was only once broken, 10'000 years ago. It requires an enormous amount of patience to prepare for 10'000 years to besiege it.

 

And you're not right about Cadia as well. Cadian Gate and Cadia itself was broken in 13th Black Crusade, Abaddon and his forces are outside the Eye of Terror.

[Unguis Raptus]

What has Huron actually done that makes him more successful than Abaddon?

 

I've not read into him that much, as a Night Lords player I've had no interest or reason to. As far as I knew he had his little rebellion shin dig, got his ass whacked by some Star Phantom (but it was okay they had the technology... they could rebuild him). Then I heard nothing much from him, then in the last codex he stole a strike cruiser and they made out like this was some crowning achievement.

 

Basically I would like to know if I've missed something, is there a reason everyone's licking Huron's gooch?

[Lord_Starscream]

What has Huron actually done that makes him more successful than Abaddon?

 

I've not read into him that much, as a Night Lords player I've had no interest or reason to. As far as I knew he had his little rebellion shin dig, got his ass whacked by some Star Phantom (but it was okay they had the technology... they could rebuild him). Then I heard nothing much from him, then in the last codex he stole a strike cruiser and they made out like this was some crowning achievement.

 

Basically I would like to know if I've missed something, is there a reason everyone's licking Huron's gooch?

 

 

I don't exactly like Huuron either. I think he's an idiot >.>...

[minigun762]

What has Huron actually done that makes him more successful than Abaddon?

 

I've not read into him that much, as a Night Lords player I've had no interest or reason to. As far as I knew he had his little rebellion shin dig, got his ass whacked by some Star Phantom (but it was okay they had the technology... they could rebuild him). Then I heard nothing much from him, then in the last codex he stole a strike cruiser and they made out like this was some crowning achievement.

 

Basically I would like to know if I've missed something, is there a reason everyone's licking Huron's gooch?

 

Might want to watch the phrasing. Remember we're family friendly.

 

As for Huron, his role and capabilities have been increased in some of the last few BL novels. He's not at Abaddon's level yet but he has grown beyond his initial role as a pirate captain and raider.

[incinerator950]

If Abbadon would stop stabbing the other Legions and Warbands in the back, I'd be more inclined to look over his Feints and losses as acceptable in knowing you have take a war one step at a time. Still, I'm not on the bandwaggon for the Armless Abbadon or Failbaddon. However, I don't have anything to support him either.

 

In the case of the last Crusade, Cadia was contested and pretty much that entire sector is still a warzone or destroyed. His forces, as well as anyone intelligent to know this is one of the best times to do your own motives for Enslaving, Capturing, Slaughtering, Escaping, or just plain want to stretch and take a nice stroll in the Imperial Park, can now leave the Eye easier.