Daeghrefn Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Having come from WHFB back in the day, my personal theory is that Chaos keeps Abaddon specifically because he is something of a failure. He's pretty good, and usually almost gets there... but never quite pulls it off. The chaos gods do not want ultimate victory over the forces of order because that would render them essentially obsolete. Chaos is defined by the order it seeks to unravel, and can never truly succeed. The fluff I've seen so far always winds up with Chaos on the very cusp of victory when some random or bizarre or inexplicable thing happens to derail it; then they go back, rebuild, and it begins all over again. The continuation of the struggle feeds power directly into the warp through the bi-products of the emotions, destruction, rot and bloodshed generated by it. The Warp needs an ultimate champion strong enough to force their various minions to work together occasionally and make a good show of it... but not so good that he actually pulls it off. On the other hand, who launches 13 intergalactic wars, loses every one of them, and still retains any respect at all? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 And that's where I think the misconception comes from. Some people view each of the Black Crusades as an all or nothing war, when in reality what they were were raids and/or assaults that were meant to accomplish a specific objective, AND cause as much chaos and destruction as possible to the Imperium. Yes they were on a grand scale, but still they had goals that were accomplished. I will agree with the notion that Chaos probably does not want a full blown victory as it would indeed be anathema to what Chaos are all about. I am not an Abaddon fan-boy myself, but I certainly don't view him as a failure. From the perspective of the Word Bearers I can see some jealousy there, and as I stated before, I think that is because there is still a strong inter-legion rivalry going on there. But I guess ultimately it comes down to the fact that he has the favour of the Chaos gods. Period. If he was that big of failure then he would be dead, or a spawn. The ones I see that have trouble wrapping their heads around that, or want to insist he is a failure are those whose view is coloured by the Imperial propaganda that is prevalent in the works of the development team. ( That and those that are serious UM fanboys :P )I think that whatever Abaddons goals are he is not completely sharing them with anyone else. Could probably chalk that up to his afore-mentioned paranoia. Anyhow that's still my take on it.... ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 IIRC the last Crusade was a draw with a minor victory leaning towards Disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Nope, it was stated to be a victory to Chaos, that "while the Cadian Gate still stands, traitors are pouring over the walls in unprecedented numbers". We didn't take Cadia, but we smashed the hell out of everywhere else, pretty much. There's no point in having a gate if there's no wall to guard, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 IIRC the side of disorder had a slight advantage on the different planets, while the side of Order had an advantage in the space battles. So while a few planets were lost to the Imperium, the region is more or less secured by the Imperial Navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Another way to look at the question of how many marines there are is to question the nature of the warp. CSMs aren't really 'there,' are they? In an immaterial universe, how can you say you are anywhere? There are some compelling reasons to think the legions have grown in the time they have been in the warp. The lack of time continuity is a big part of the warp experience, as is the suffering of those who follow the Chaos gods. I would imagine that there are potentially many more Chaos Space Marines then there are Imperials by virtue of the fact time does not happen linearly in the Warp. It would be possible to field an army with 2 or more versions of yourself plucked out of different moments in time. Honestly, why would Tzeentch not do that? The fluff has always claimed Fabius Bile is going around trying to perfect the gene splicing process to make newer, better marines (or at least unlock the secrets of the Emperor). Given 10,000 years, you would think he would have figured it out by now, and would be franchising the production of warriors to the various legions. There are other reasons, and I realize I am just spouting things that are unlikely and no one else believes. But there is plenty of fluff to justify a dramatic increase in legion size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 21, 2011 Author Share Posted September 21, 2011 Thanks techsoldaten, finally a post that isn't about whether Abaddon is a failure or not. (I think he's pretty badass! :P) The Warp is a strange place indeed, and it could be very possible that the space the Traitor Legions have in the Eye of Terror is even bigger than the entire Imperium, sort of imagine it as the "anti-Imperium" or something. However, the Geneseed of most Traitor Legions has probably become rather unstable, meaning they need to find other methods to maintain their numbers. They do this for example by going to Fabulous Bill or stealing Loyalists' Geneseed. I was imagining that the Death Guard might have rather corrupted Geneseed, but are still able to make new Marines, the process would only be a very Nurgle-esque parody of the initiation rituals the Death Guard had when they were still Loyalists. Imagine exposing new recruits with all sorts of diseases and what not. The survivors are truly "blesses" by Nurgle and would grow to become new Marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I was imagining that the Death Guard might have rather corrupted Geneseed, but are still able to make new Marines, the process would only be a very Nurgle-esque parody of the initiation rituals the Death Guard had when they were still Loyalists. Imagine exposing new recruits with all sorts of diseases and what not. The survivors are truly "blesses" by Nurgle and would grow to become new Marines. Yeah, exactly. The question I am thinking about is why Chaos would hold off on creating marines en masse. The Imperium has obvious reasons for not wanting too many marines on the Board, but Chaos has no limiting motivation. Instead, I would think the goal of any Chaos organization capable of making marines would be to make more marines at all times, stockpiling for that day when these puny 1,000 person loyalist chapters try to stand in their way. In other words, this is the 'Counts As China' theory of Chaos Glory. There's enough in the fluff to indicate CSMs can make their own troops, the question really is why they haven't been doing it. Or maybe they have and no one knows it. In regards to Death Guard geneseed, it would have to be a big, throbbing ball of AIDS, cancer and cholera that would be considered a biological weapon in any other context. I can picture some Death Guard apothecary having a wonderful time running a big ball of that crap into someone to see if it takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't recall the Death Guard suffering severe casualties in the last 10k years. Typhus didn't really take a giant portion of the army, and Mortrarion only sends his fleets, while he cheerfully sits on his recreated Barburus world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 22, 2011 Author Share Posted September 22, 2011 Nobody mentioned they had such big losses. However, the fluff does seem to suggest that the Death Guard are somehow very capable of getting lots of new recruits quickly. Apparently they go out there and fight until they all die, then the ships somehow return to the Plague Planet where new recruits are jammed in there and off they go again. IIRC it was mentioned in one of the Chaos Codex books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 It's in the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher371 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 But compare chaos huron to his imperial armour tyrant of badab variant...th chaos one hasn't got eternal warrior how can he be the next warmaster? what we need is a charismatic visionary to take up th podium...say Lorgar, who better than the guy who got the ball rolling? (once he finishes sitting on his own of course) Safe to say Word Bearers have a nice supply of troops due to zealous cults etc and so do th alpha legion with their cultists and defecting loyalists... naturally black legion will have lots of numbers whether it be through alliances with other warbands or actual black legionnaires. and as mentioned earlier th iron wariors are still united so they probably have plenty of bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 The Black Legion suffers heavy losses due to many becoming possessed. The Iron Warriors, whilst an unified Legion, fight amongst themselves a lot and do have sub-factions such as the Steel Brethren. As for the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion, note that the examples you presented are adult supporters. The Legions need children to recruit. I kinda liked how the Night Lords kidnapped children in Blood Reaver! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 The Black Legion suffers heavy losses due to many becoming possessed. its the other way around . they started to use mass possessions durning the legion wars after the EC kicked their butt . also BL possession is different from what other legion do . BL possessed dont die after a short time and its not used as a form of punishment .their possessed have the demon and the mortal "living" in one body without the strain destroying the host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypher371 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 hey i just fresh supply of troops from zealous cults... didn't say they became marines... with the exception of defecting loyalists naturally ;) but yeah it does have to be prebuscents which i guess causes a few problems... off topic but does anyone have any more info on bile being trained by the haemonculi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 The Black Legion suffers heavy losses due to many becoming possessed. its the other way around . they started to use mass possessions durning the legion wars after the EC kicked their butt . also BL possession is different from what other legion do . BL possessed dont die after a short time and its not used as a form of punishment .their possessed have the demon and the mortal "living" in one body without the strain destroying the host. The possessed are rather unstable, I remember reading somewhere that it caused the Legion to great diminish its power. It was only when Abaddon started to attract other warbands to join his folly that they manage to overcome this. By the way, is there more info on the Legion Wars in the EOT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 The Black Legion suffers heavy losses due to many becoming possessed. its the other way around . they started to use mass possessions durning the legion wars after the EC kicked their butt . also BL possession is different from what other legion do . BL possessed dont die after a short time and its not used as a form of punishment .their possessed have the demon and the mortal "living" in one body without the strain destroying the host. The possessed are rather unstable, I remember reading somewhere that it caused the Legion to great diminish its power. It was only when Abaddon started to attract other warbands to join his folly that they manage to overcome this. Yeah, that was during their first centuries in the Eye of Terror. The Sons of Horus tried to become possessed by Daemons of all four Chaos Gods in turn, but every time they changed loyalties as a Possessed, the cast out Daemon would leave a dead body. The problem was solved when the Legion's sorcerers developed a better method of possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 But I can imagine that most Possessed would be rather unstable. Maybe not so much their bodies (they can fight and kill and what not), but more their mental state. They wouldn't be the most reliable soldiers. Kind of comparable to the Death Company of the Blood Angels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 but yeah it does have to be prebuscents which i guess causes a few problems... Not here we don't. ;) Also, a thousand worlds utterly dedicated to the Dark Gods and filled to the brim with cultists and beastmen and only the Gods knows what is quite sure to spawn quite enough kids for our needs I would think. :( TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 Perhaps so, but so far we haven't seen that many examples of that. The Night Lords seem to kidnap children who will later on be turned into Astartes. The Iron Warriors had some sort of 40k version of an Axotl Tank which is basically a big womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 There was more info upon the subject in the Fabius Bile Villians and Heroes of the 41st Millenium article, which I can't seem to find now. I think it was in one of the Index Astartes books. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 It was primarily about Fabius describing the various flaws in the Geneseed. Not that much interesting info, sadly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 And there was also a notice about while the forces of the Imperium went to great lengths and were extremely careful in their handling of the gene-seed in order to keep it pure and balanced and make sure that as many aspirants as possible survived the process - not such regard was needed by the forces of Chaos to whom it did not matter if 99% of the subjects died in the process. Because it would mean only the toughest and best came out alive. Unlike the Imperium. Also the powers of the Gods themselves can change a simple commoner into something resembling the Chaos Astartes. All they have to do after is slap some power armor on him and he's good for fodder. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Well, the Traitor Legions have always been able to create new Marines. It's been like that since 1st edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Share Posted September 27, 2011 And there was also a notice about while the forces of the Imperium went to great lengths and were extremely careful in their handling of the gene-seed in order to keep it pure and balanced and make sure that as many aspirants as possible survived the process - not such regard was needed by the forces of Chaos to whom it did not matter if 99% of the subjects died in the process. Because it would mean only the toughest and best came out alive. Unlike the Imperium. Also the powers of the Gods themselves can change a simple commoner into something resembling the Chaos Astartes. All they have to do after is slap some power armor on him and he's good for fodder. TDA Oh, the Imperium also has these survival ratios, at least if we believe some of the articles on the specific marine chapters. I guess it's written that way to add some more dramatics to the story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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