Codex: Star Shields

[thade]

NO haha no storm shield on the captain. Not an issue anyway, Iron Halo will make him 4++.

 

Actually I think Captains (given their age and your gene seed defect) should be Slow and Purposeful...or at least gain Slow and Purposeful should they get a Power Fist/S10 melee option.

 

Think about it this way: GK can get a S10 HQ...but to do that the model needs an I1 Str-doubling weapon and they have to get two Psychic Tests off. They also have other models who can do this..entire units even, given those two tests. They lack your super-ranged punch. In your case, I'd say only the Captain can do this and - since there's no tests involved, he just gets it - he needs something else to make him not stupid-awesome. Slow and Purposeful. Expensive weapon upgrades. I mean, a guaranteed S10 melee attack is pretty insane...so he needs some severe restrictions.

[SnakeoilSage]

I mean, a rerollable 2+ armor save is good, but not as good as the 3++ Storm Shields I suggested. :cuss Def go with one or the other though. Not both.

 

I can totally get behind dropping Termies as Elite choices entirely in favor of having Command Squads be Terminators. Consider very strongly what I said about forbidding Terminators from taking strength-doubling weapons. The only infantry models in your army that should be able to go S10 are the Captains...if anybody.

 

You could make the +1S -1I an army wide rule and impose the restriction that "This rule is lost if the owner puts on a Power Fist." But honestly I like the first option better. It would make your Captains stand out and give you the "something cool in melee" thing I get the sense you'd like.

 

I think I'd like my Terminators to be more "guard" forces, than "attack" forces. Power weapons at best and Stormshields standard, and options for lots of heavy weapons instead of CC's.

[chaplain belisarius]

thought you were going in that direction...hence the idea of storm shields, powerweapons and combi weapons. possibly with the option to take more heavy weapons?

[SnakeoilSage]

It's easy enough to limit the melee weapons to a few items and beef up their cost. I'd like to see more Captains with Heavy Bolters anyways. lol

[thade]

"Storm shields standard" is pretty potent. There's a reason the only Termies that can take SSs are the ones with I1 attacks.

 

This is still my honest build-list for a Terminator squad in your codex:

• Possibly limit to five models (it's a command squad).
  
• Per five models, two (possibly only one) may take a storm shield.
  
• Per five models, two models may take CMLs.
  
• Per five models, two models (that do not have storm shields) may take Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.
  
• Possibly allow one model to take one of your lance weapons. If he does, it counts towards the Assault Cannons/Heavy Flamers limit. Maybe only the squad sergeant can do this.
  
• Power Swords only is cool. NO S10 TERMINATORS THAT ARE NOT HQS. That's really my battle-cry here. <3
  

[SnakeoilSage]

"Storm shields standard" is pretty potent. There's a reason the only Termies that can take SSs are the ones with I1 attacks.

 

This is still my honest build-list for a Terminator squad in your codex:

• Possibly limit to five models (it's a command squad).
  
• Per five models, two (possibly only one) may take a storm shield.
  
• Per five models, two models may take CMLs.
  
• Per five models, two models (that do not have storm shields) may take Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.
  
• Possibly allow one model to take one of your lance weapons. If he does, it counts towards the Assault Cannons/Heavy Flamers limit. Maybe only the squad sergeant can do this.
  
• Power Swords only is cool. NO S10 TERMINATORS THAT ARE NOT HQS. That's really my battle-cry here. <3
  

 

I like it!

[chaplain belisarius]

me too...but i still think they should have shields of some description...maybe just model them to have shields? or possibly make the shields give a bonus of some kind? (maybe add 1 to the invulnerable save?)

 

good idea? or too powerful?

[thade]

What you might want to do is under-tune the codex while testing. It's easier (and more fun) to ramp things up a bit than to scale them back. :D

 

Something else that occurred to me: perhaps a Captain with S10 melee attacks (a power fist, especially a chainfist) never receives the bonus attack for charging. Not that much of a nerf and it's even fluffy: your marines are kind of like Dwarves, in my mind...stubborn, slow, and very hard hitting. Then the "Slow and Purposeful" ancient Captain will be less of an issue...as there's no reason for him to charge anyway. ;) He can be all like "Bring it" with whatever squad he's attached to, be it Devastators or that Command Squad above.

 

Next up maybe we can discuss the Librarian. <3

 

The Hover ability is kind of cool...but I'd restrict it more. 6" instead of 12" and doesn't work on Land Raiders. Alternatively you could ditch the power and instead have it grant a single vehicle a Psychic Siege Shield allowing it to crash through walls as it wishes. That makes a lot more sense for you, I feel. If you really want them to fly, add a backlash...he fails the check and he suffers a Perils and the target vehicle is Immobilized.

 

The power that slows down the target I'd also scale back. Makes Infantry move as if in Difficult, Vehicles are unaffected. If you want it stronger (or able to affect vehicles) add a nasty back-lash to it. Like, if he fails the check, his unit suffers the results.

 

The Lance and Template powers I like; they look reasonable to me considering that most other Librarians have stronger hitting templates (like Vortex) and yet your army's general fire power is superior.

 

I like the Fortitude-like power.

 

The power that nerfs enemy shooting is too awesome. I'd have it instead cause a target unit to shoot as if it's Night Fighting, and make the range on the power 36". Or something more basic, like gives every unit within 6" a 5+ cover save (there's lots of precedent for this). You could tune it a bit lower and make it an Invulnerable save instead...meaning Null Zone will wreck it and thus it's got a needed weakness.

 

I'd reduce his WS. Librarians typically have WS5 BS4. I get tha tyou want him at BS5 for your Chapter's fluff...so drop his WS to stick with that theme. ;)

[thade]

me too...but i still think they should have shields of some description...maybe just model them to have shields? or possibly make the shields give a bonus of some kind? (maybe add 1 to the invulnerable save?)

 

good idea? or too powerful?

Too powerful. They're already in Terminator armor with stupid-powerful fire power. Given what a hard time the opponent will have getting to you, they shouldn't also have a stupid-hard time hurting you in combat. 2+/5++ with one 3++ is more than sufficient, I feel.

[chaplain belisarius]

so..giving them shields that increase their invulnerable save to 4+ is a bit much? was worried it might be...

[SnakeoilSage]

What about a shield that takes up the off-hand, but allows for armour save re-rolls on a 1? Even against shooting?

[chaplain belisarius]

i just feel that your elite unit should have shields-it just seems to fit with the fluff and the name in my head...but im not sure how to do it without making it overpowered...:D

[SnakeoilSage]

So in terms of units, I'd like to:

 

Take out Vanguard Veterans and Scout Bikers Squads (they don't really fit the theme).

 

Keep Sternguard but also have an Elite Heavy Weapons force.

 

Only Command Squads get Terminator Armour.

 

Toss out Lightning Claws, limit PF's and anything like them.

[thade]

Think about it this way:

 

Your guys are Very Tau-like. They shoot HARD. They can fire Heavy Weapons on the move (albeit in Difficult Terrain and they can't assault thereafter, this is still super-awesome). They have to suffer somewhere. Have to or they will be too powerful.

 

2+/5++, one model at 3++ is just fine. :lol: As it is, I find myself wondering if your entire army should just be Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, and never get the bonus attack for Charging into combat. Might even make sense for them to not have Frag grenades...I3 normal, I1 if they actually charge into cover. No power fists anywhere except on Dreadnoughts and Captains.

 

By the way...I can't believe I missed this before. Boltguns on Assault Marines are broken. Drop them. :( Don't allow them. 12" jump troops with rapid-fire are not cool, haha. There's a reason it's super hard to get these in the BA codex (the one that specializes in jump troops).

 

Again, your guys hit hard on the move. They need to suffer somewhere.

[SnakeoilSage]

Think about it this way:

 

Your guys are Very Tau-like. They shoot HARD. They can fire Heavy Weapons on the move (albeit in Difficult Terrain and they can't assault thereafter, this is still super-awesome). They have to suffer somewhere. Have to or they will be too powerful.

 

2+/5++, one model at 3++ is just fine. :lol: As it is, I find myself wondering if your entire army should just be Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, and never get the bonus attack for Charging into combat. Might even make sense for them to not have Frag grenades...I3 normal, I1 if they actually charge into cover. No power fists anywhere except on Dreadnoughts and Captains.

 

By the way...I can't believe I missed this before. Boltguns on Assault Marines are broken. Drop them. :( Don't allow them. 12" jump troops with rapid-fire are not cool, haha. There's a reason it's super hard to get these in the BA codex (the one that specializes in jump troops).

 

Again, your guys hit hard on the move. They need to suffer somewhere.

 

I don't want them so Tau like that they will just get massacred in close-combat. Like Dwarfs, I want them to be shooty-survivors. If enemies do get in close combat, I want my guys to weather the blows, even if they don't make a lot of return hits back. We won't have groups of Kroot or Vespids or whatever to make up for our poor close-quarters abilities, and Star Shields are still Space Marines. I think their close-combat abilities should focus on protecting themselves, not making lots of attacks, so that what few they do make really hurt.

[chaplain belisarius]

hmm...interesting points there!

 

You want your guys to be marines who favour heavy firepower over assault and are slow, but hit hard up close? possibly very hard to kill off due to favouring of shields and suchlike? Your chapter are not assault specialists-they are big, slightly lumbering behemoths with lots of heavy weapons?

 

is that it? or am i completely wrong?

[thade]

Tau get massacred in close combat because of Low Toughness, Low Initiative, and Low Leadership.

 

Marines have T4, yours have a lower init to balance their higher Strength in melee, and they have marine leadership (8, 9 with a sergeant). Not to mention, Marines have And They Shall Know No Fear, meaning they won't be obliterated by Sweeping Advance (which is really why Tau get crippled).

 

So, with the amendments I've suggested, I really feel like your marines shoot very well (better than vanilla marines) and fight slightly worse (though very close to vanilla marines sans Melee options). I think that's what you seem to be going for here.

 

ATSKNF, T4, L8(9) will not lay down in combat by any means.

[chaplain belisarius]

had an idea-some sort of defensive ability that makes your guys more sturdy at taking the hits in melee but at the expense of your ability to give out hits in melee? something like that sound good?

[SnakeoilSage]

hmm...interesting points there!

 

You want your guys to be marines who favour heavy firepower over assault and are slow, but hit hard up close? possibly very hard to kill off due to favouring of shields and suchlike? Your chapter are not assault specialists-they are big, slightly lumbering behemoths with lots of heavy weapons?

 

is that it? or am i completely wrong?

 

I think you've got it pretty good there. To make up for it a little maybe we can stick to weapons that hit hard at mid-to-slow range? Nothing over 36" range?

[chaplain belisarius]

have i? phew! was worried i was just talking nonsesnse there!

 

its a toughie-i think i know what theme you want your marines to have but am unsure how to replicate it on the tabletop...without it being overpowered!

 

Maybe if we start with the basics, then work from there?

 

Your chapter trade in combat tactics and combat squads for-

 

1-I3, S5 on all marines (apart from the captain who gets a much more sturdy S5, I4 and is the only marine able to take powerfists and other strength doubling weapons-at a slightly higher cost than "normal" marines?)

 

2-all marines can move and fire heavy weapons but count as moving through difficult terrain and cannot assault if they do so?

 

3-vanguard and other assault specialists are limited to 0-1

 

4-your captain can take a "thade pattern" terminator command squad

 

 

Is that ok?

[thade]

The idea where he loses his attack for charging helps nerf his hitting power a bit. I3 is mostly balanced out by S5. I endorse the lose of Frag grenades. This is not an army that charges nor one that enjoys receiving charges...but as I explained they won't lay down if charged either (and they still have the benefit that - if they charge - they deny their enemy his/her bonus attacks for charging themselves).

 

Not super-weak in combat, but weaker than Vanilla codex marines. I really feel this makes sense as you can outshoot Vanilla codex marines. Was that not the goal?

 

Small aside: why would you allow tactical squads to trade in their bolt pistol (the thing that lets them shoot once at 12" before charging) in exchange for a chainsword (which sans bolt pistol is effectively useless)? They may as well just be standard Tactical Marines, point-for-point as they are in the Vanilla dex.

[SnakeoilSage]

The idea where he loses his attack for charging helps nerf his hitting power a bit. I3 is mostly balanced out by S5. I endorse the lose of Frag grenades. This is not an army that charges nor one that enjoys receiving charges...but as I explained they won't lay down if charged either (and they still have the benefit that - if they charge - they deny their enemy his/her bonus attacks for charging themselves).

 

Not super-weak in combat, but weaker than Vanilla codex marines. I really feel this makes sense as you can outshoot Vanilla codex marines. Was that not the goal?

 

Small aside: why would you allow tactical squads to trade in their bolt pistol (the thing that lets them shoot once at 12" before charging) in exchange for a chainsword (which sans bolt pistol is effectively useless)? They may as well just be standard Tactical Marines, point-for-point as they are in the Vanilla dex.

 

I like the setup.

 

I switched the bolt pistols to chainswords to keep the Sergeant from getting an extra attack in close combat.

[thade]

I mean, if you like it you like it...but the loss of bolt pistols is an even further nerf to your melee combat potential. You understand that, yes? Your tactical marines don't shoot pre-charge and (with my addendums) only do one attack each on the charge. That's actually good...and a minor nerf as your marines will very often just want to stand there and rip with their heavy weapons as long as they are able (right up until they get charged). At this point, I'd drop Frag grenades entirely from your army and swap in Defensive grenades. It will effectively increase your durability without increasing your hitting power in melee.

[SnakeoilSage]

I mean, if you like it you like it...but the loss of bolt pistols is an even further nerf to your melee combat potential. You understand that, yes? Your tactical marines don't shoot pre-charge and (with my addendums) only do one attack each on the charge. That's actually good...and a minor nerf as your marines will very often just want to stand there and rip with their heavy weapons as long as they are able (right up until they get charged). At this point, I'd drop Frag grenades entirely from your army and swap in Defensive grenades. It will effectively increase your durability without increasing your hitting power in melee.

 

Agreed!

[chaplain belisarius]

of course! thats it! if they get given shields then they count as having defensive grenades!

 

good idea? :huh: