Codex: Star Shields

[thade]

No, bad idea. :huh: drop the "shields" idea...there are already Shields in the game and they all serve the same function: they add invulnerable saves.

 

Defensive grenades can just literally be defensive grenades. :huh: Gas grenades or flash bangs or whatever you like.

 

...and don't let jump troops take boltguns. They're not Vets...so they're "young marines". Assault marines are the youngest, typically...Devs, then Assault, finally Tactical Marines. Then Vets. Vets get S5 I3. Normal marines (assault, dev, tacs) get S4 I4. Let your assault troops take pistols/chainswords; give the sergeant a special 2H chainsword or a power axe. Let them serve the function they're designed for: high mobility interception/counter charging of foes that are about to (or have) charge(d) your shooting units. Perhaps Assault Marines can take frag grenades at +1 point per model.

[chaplain belisarius]

but thade..they are called the star shields-surely they can take shields? it just seems wrong not to give them shields for some reason?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

but thade..they are called the star shields-surely they can take shields? it just seems wrong not to give them shields for some reason?

It would be like saying you can't use Space Marines in Space its just not cool.

[thade]

but thade..they are called the star shields-surely they can take shields? it just seems wrong not to give them shields for some reason?

So, my guys are called the Red Shields. Do you know where their red shields are? On their shoulder plates. :huh:

 

I use the BA Dex and don't use assault terminators (they're not fluffy for my boys); I use Vanguard and they will at times take storm shields as my "shield bearers". My guys are melee-focused (hence the use of the BA dex as it's written as well as a lot of counts-as and fluff) so the shields make sense. But I don't always take them.

 

In a literal sense, my guys are the Red Shields because they shield the Imperium with their blood. They take the hits so innocents don't have to (hence my chapter's severely low numbers). "Red Thirst" is not a reflection of a gene seed defect; it's a reflection of how many innocents may be nearby and how likely my marines are to hold their ground to protect them.

 

In short, the name need not dictate their war gear options; not in my opinion, anyway.

 

It's your dex: do what you want with it, of course. Though your posting it here lead me to believe you wanted some opinions and advice on balancing it...that's what I'm trying to do. <3

[chaplain belisarius]

im thinking-the enemy advance and the star shields unleash withering firepower at them, then just before the enemy reach their lines, the sergeants yell "here they come!" and the star shields get their shields out and brace for the enemy attack...how cool is that thought? (i know im no ADB, but its the best i can do im afraid!)

 

by the way-your chapter sounds interesting thade...

[thade]

im thinking-the enemy advance and the star shields unleash withering firepower at them, then just before the enemy reach their lines, the sergeants yell "here they come!" and the star shields get their shields out and brace for the enemy attack...how cool is that thought? (i know im no ADB, but its the best i can do im afraid!)

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

In my mind the Star Shield would be too large for small scale skirmishes (like you'd see on the table top). I think instead the "star shield" war gear is actually a ship-mounted thing that their battle barges are uniquely equipped with. Dark Age of Tech stuff that makes their ships really hard to take down. No in-game reflection of this is necessary; i.e. it need not muddle with balancing this book.

[chaplain belisarius]

agreed..but you have to admit having their shields count as defensive grenades makes sense! (or at least it does in my fevered imagination!) :huh:

[thade]

agreed..but you have to admit having their shields count as defensive grenades makes sense! (or at least it does in my fevered imagination!) :huh:

I suppose I can agree that such is so within the confines of your fevered imagination. <3

 

But for the purposes of it being easy for an opponent to understand, I suggest literal grenades for that purpose. This is a custom codex, usable only when granted permission by your opponent. The easier it is to understand, the more likely they are to allow it. The more balanced it seems, the more likely they'll allow you to use it again.

 

EDIT: Consider: are Salamanders actually Salamanders? Fire Dragons? Storm Wardens literally monitoring and shepherding thunder storms seems a bit silly, no? Not every chapter's name sake is a literal weapon. <3

[chaplain belisarius]

hmmm...that is a very good point! myself, i wouldnt have a problem facing something like that...but you do get the odd opponent who has to be difficult!

 

you are much better at this list stuff than i am thade...

 

I know that thade! ive been into this game for ages-but sometimes stuff just screams out to be used for cool effect (in the case of the star shields and their combat doctrine-i just thought-shieldwall!)

[falldown]

"im thinking-the enemy advance and the star shields unleash withering firepower at them, then just before the enemy reach their lines, the sergeants yell "here they come!" and the star shields get their shields out and brace for the enemy attack...how cool is that thought? (i know im no ADB, but its the best i can do im afraid!)"

 

Yes thematically that would be a great scene in a movie. In the game that would make them overpowered. Shield with 1 att at low init maybe. Anything else and it would be too much.

[chaplain belisarius]

you mean them not having frag grenades, I3 and S5 and using defensive grenades (which they pay points for!) would make them overpowered?

 

(dont worry! they dont have storm shields! that would be OTT)

[thade]

Swap frags out for defensive grenades. Vet stat line is S5 I3 otherwise normal. They don't get bonus attack for charging (a further slight nerf for being S5 at all times in combat). Recall if we're talking the terminators they can carry twice as many assault cannons as a standard unit for a smaller investment of points (five models instead of ten). ...also, Terminators don't get frag grenades and so they shouldn't get defensive grenades either. :wacko:

[chaplain belisarius]

all those ideas make perfect sense to me..:wacko:

[falldown]

Here's the thing. Your guys shoot as well as Tau, with arguably better weapons and portable Lances, which they can shoot on the move. They have a higher Str then vanillas for CC, and maintain the standard toughness of a marine. Even at I3 you are going to have a fine time in CC. If you add defensive grenades, this makes them even better in CC against assaults.

 

As is, they are just too awesome to balance on a tabletop against an existing army. You can't beat them at range, you can't beat them in CC. With Lances, you can't outmaneuver them. Orks might do ok as a tide army, but other then that...

 

My post gave no constructive advice... Sorry. As Thade says. Defensive grenades. No bonuses for charging.

As a side note, I like the write-up you gave them. It made for good reading, so props. :wacko:

[thade]

All of my thinking here is hinged upon them being a shooting-centric marine force. They have tech that was forgotten, etc. Lance weaponry is awesome. Eldar have it because they are otherwise fragile. Dark Eldar can spam it and hit super hard in melee...and they are expensive and VERY fragile. Boltguns and Flamers AP them. One template, poof, entire unit is gone. Balance.

 

If you want marines to shoot better than normal marines but not die like Dark Eldar do, their shooting can't be too much better, and/or their melee will have to be slightly worse. Think about it this way. You have several buckets and only two full-bucket's worth of water between them. The amount of water in each bucket represents how good they are at shooting, melee, taking fire, taking melee hits, etc. You can't add more water from anywhere: you have only the water that's already in the buckets, which you can redistribute.

 

Adding water breaks the dex. Spilling water makes it too weak.

 

Since it's not literal water, you need to manually take from their strengths when you give them strengths. That's what I'm trying to help with here.

[falldown]

And you're better at it then me Thade, so I'm backing out.

[chaplain belisarius]

makes sense-the idea of giving with one hand, whilst taking with the other. I think losing combat squads, combat tactics, frag grenades and the attack bonus for charging is quite a lot to pay in exchange for what is gained for a basic tactical squad, dont you?

 

Devastators may be another matter but they are already very expensive, maybe say that compulsory troops choices should be devastator squads? (this would reduce the numbers of a force somewhat?)

 

just a few more ideas ive had...im enjoying this thread immensely! :wacko:

[thade]

I would say it makes sense in this book for Devastator squads to be Troop choices (and not Heavy Support). Then follow the standard Force Org otherwise.

[chaplain belisarius]

plus-the amount of points it is for a dev squad would mean you would be outnumbered more than "normal" marines, sort of negating a few of the advantages? is that the thought? :wacko:

[thade]

plus-the amount of points it is for a dev squad would mean you would be outnumbered more than "normal" marines, sort of negating a few of the advantages? is that the thought? :wacko:

One of them. It also makes sense; his marines can move and fire heavies (albeit slowly, slow is faster than not moving at all)...they'd take more of them than a standard chapter on some deployments.

 

Moving and firing heavies is significantly powerful, as are Lance Weapons on Marines. Those are the gives I'm trying to find takes for.

[chaplain belisarius]

it is pretty good...ill admit! but it fits with the chapters fluff too...(can you tell i like this chapter?)

 

maybe lower the availability of the lance weapon to one per army? make it expensive? good ideas? :wacko:

 

maybe -1 to characters WS? or is that too much? (or perhaps -1 WS, +1 BS for characters?)

 

make dev squads have to be taken as ten man squads (and have to be taken to as compulsory troops choices?)

[SnakeoilSage]

I think limiting the Lancer to just 1 model, perhaps a vehicle (a Predator?) and decreasing its range would make it a good mid-range brawler but not make it so prominent in an army that it just wipes out another army's armor.

 

I'm really glad to see so many ideas and brainstorming coming from this. I think I really will have to sit down and re-write the Army List to balance things out more. In fact, I'm gonna do that right now, starting with taking down some notes from all these good ideas.

[thade]

My buddy balked at the super-power of your Hero characters (which, admittedly, I haven't looked at closely yet). That's my next step, if you're getting anything useful out of me.

 

I think with Devs as Troops, restricting the Lance to a Predator will keep it under three per force, max...which is a good idea. I'm definitely behind reducing its range to 36" or even 24" considering how hard it hits. You'll Lascannons besides, which are also good at penning AV14 and have higher range.

[SnakeoilSage]

Yeah, I'm getting some great stuff man. Feel free to turn that professional eye on anything I've got written down.

 

I think the Lancer would be, at best, a mid-range defensive weapon for destroying fast, light vehicles.

 

How's this sound for a revised Focus and Fury:

 

Focused March: A model with this rule can move and fire Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons as if he had not moved. Models that move and fire Heavy weapons must take a Difficult Terrain test. All other restrictions for Deep-Strike, disembarking from a vehicle and launching assaults apply.

 

In addition, models with this rule do not gain an Attack bonus when launching an assault.

[SnakeoilSage]

Okay, here's an example, using the Chapter Master/Star Shields Captain, of some revised rules.

 

Special Rules

Focused March: A model with this rule can fire Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons as if he had not moved. Models that move and fire Heavy weapons must take a Difficult Terrain test. All other restrictions for Deep-Strike, disembarking from a vehicle and launching assaults apply. Additionally, models with this rule do not gain an Attack bonus when launching an assault.

 

Armoury

War Saw: A war saw is a two-handed chainsword based on the heavy ice-cutting tools used by the Ursalis Clans. Successful armour saves made against wounds from a war saw must be re-rolled. Models attacking with a war saw do not gain the +1 Attack bonus for having a second close combat weapon.

 

Star Shields Captain

Captain5554333103+

125 Points

• Infantry
  

• 1 Star Shields Captain
  

• Power armour
  
• Chainsword
  
• Boltgun
  
• Defense and krak grenades
  
• Iron Halo
  

• And They Shall Know No Fear
  
• Slow and Purposeful
  
• Independent Character
  
• Orbital Bombardment
  

Options:

• Give boltgun special-issue ammunition: +15 pts
  
• Replace boltgun and/or chainsword with:
  
  • - a storm bolter or war saw: +3 pts
    - a combi-flamer, -melta, -plasma, or a plasma pistol: +10 pts
    - a heavy bolter or multimelta: +15 pts
    - a power weapon: +25 pts
    - a power fist: +35 pts
    - a thunder hammer: +40 pts
    

  [*]Replace power armour with artificer armour: +15 pts

  [*]Take frag grenades: +1 pt

  [*]Take meltabombs: +5 pts

  [*]Take hellfire rounds: 10 pts

  [*]Take auxiliary grenade launcher: +15 pts

  [*]Replace power armour, boltgun, chainsword, defense and krak grenades with Terminator armour with storm bolter and power sword: +40 pts

  [*]Replace Terminator armour's storm bolter with:

  • - combi-flamer, -melta, or -plasma: +5 pts
    - heavy flamer +5 pts
    - thunder hammer: +20 pts
    - assault cannon: +30 pts
    

  [*]Replace Terminator armour's power sword with thunder hammer or chainfist +25 pts

 

Honour Guard Squad

Shield Bearer4554132102+Honour Guard4454132102+

Codex: Space Marines pg.131 for Points Costs

• Infantry
  

• 1 Shield Bearer
  
• 2 Honour Guards
  

• Artificer armour
  
• War saw
  
• Defense and krak grenades
  
• Boltgun
  
• Combat shields
  

• And They Shall Know No Fear
  
• Focused March
  
• Honour or Death (Shield Bearer only)
  

• Drop Pod
  
• Rhino
  
• Razorback
  
• If the unit has Terminator armour, may purchase a Land Raider of any variant.
  

Options:

• May include up to four additional Honour Guards: +35 pts/model
  
• The Shield Bearer may replace his boltgun with a Stalker-pattern boltgun (Codex Space Marines pg.88): +15 pts
  
• If the Chapter Master has a Heavy weapon, up to two Honour Guard may replace their boltguns for:
  
  • - a heavy bolter, multi-melta or missile launcher: +15 pts/model
    - a plasma cannon: +20 pts/model
    - a lascannon: +30 pts/model
    

  [*]If the Chapter Master has Terminator armour, the Honour Guard may replace their artificer armour, defense and krak grenades, war saws, boltgun and combat shields for Terminator armour with storm bolter and power weapon: +20 pts/model

  [*]The Shield Bearer may exchange his Terminator storm bolter for a lancer for +35 pts

  [*]Up to two Terminator Honour Guard may exchange their storm bolters for:

  - a heavy flamer: +5 pts/model

  - an assault cannon: +25 pts/model

  - a cyclone missile launcher: +25 pts/model

  [*]One Honour Guard may carry the Chapter Banner: +25 pts

Wargear

Chapter Banner:Star Shield units within 6" of a Chapter Banner have the Move Through Cover rule.