Vindicare VS Monolith

[thade]

I don't have a Necron Codex, so I'm operating on memory alone. I'm pretty sure that Living Metal prevents usage of "extra pen dice" where "extra" (in their Third Edition way) means "anything beyond the standard 1d6 the core rulebook allows you for penetration". Melta guns and Chainfists both specifically state "they get 2d6 to penetrate", yet Living Metal takes them down to 1d6...I don't see why the Turbo Pen round would be any different.

 

But then, I have not a Necron Codex...and I don't have my GK codex with me at the moment either. :D

 

Thoughts?

[Dan VK]

"Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melt weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score." C:N pg21

 

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength to it, comparing this total with the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle." BRB pg60

 

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6." C:GK pg 53

 

"A chainfist is treated exactly as a power fist, but rolls 2D6 for its armour penetration value." C:SM pg 64

 

It looks clear to me; turbo-penetrator shots are 1D6 for Armor Penetration against a Monolith. Monstrous creatures and melta weapons get "an extra D6" for armor penetration, but a model with a chainfist "rolls 2D6" for armor penetration, and all three are lumped together as subject to the Living Metal special rule. I do not see why turbo-penetrator should be treated differently.

[Jacinda]

Just one die + Strength is all you ever get. Rending attacks don't even get the d3. You do still get extra Strength from powerfists and the like but a turbo pen shot gets 1d6 against a Monolith just like anything else.

 

For now.

 

Ask again in October; maybe the new codex will be out.

[Seahawk]

Your search-fu is weak:

 

6 pages, same topic. Closed 2 months ago.

 

Related topics:

 

- Chainfists

- Extra pens

- Meltabombs v1

- Meltabombs v2

[thade]

Your search-fu is weak:

I never said otherwise, man. haha IN FACT I think if you search for, like, "thade search-fu" you'll find I preface more than a few threads in here with "My search-fu has failed me." As it did, in this case. <3

 

Thanks, all.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

not to stir the pot. but does anyone have an old space marine codex and what does the chainfist say in there? ( im talking pre 4th )

 

theory of thinking. the word "additional" such as you gain extra ( via a melta weapon at 12 inches roles 1d6 but gains 1 more 1d6 at 6 inches)

 

a monstrous creature. pg 51 BRB In addition, moustrous creatures roll an addtional d6 for armour penetration

 

rending pg 31 brb Against vehicles an armour penetration roll of a 6 allows a further d3 to be rolled.

 

now i would agree that rending is out too. cause you say tomayto ( additional ) you say tomahto ( further )

 

the only reason i question this rule like that cause of the fact things like chainfist and turbo pen are based 2d6 and 4d6 it is not role addtional dice from the 1d6

 

 

 

i know this is RAW vs RAI and as such im still going to treat it 1d6 + 3 ( = 9 :-( )

[thade]

See the links in Seahawk's Post...which address precisely what you're asking.

 

Short answer: No, chainfists and turbo pen rounds do not get more than 1d6 for penetration.

[Brother Valerius]

See the links in Seahawk's Post...which address precisely what you're asking.

 

Short answer: No, chainfists and turbo pen rounds do not get more than 1d6 for penetration.

 

I don't feel like there's a conclusive argument either way here. My gut feeling is that I agree with you, and that Living Metal precludes more than 1d6 pen from these sources. However, in the other threads I've seen on this topic there has not been an argument presented which I found can sweep away doubt on this issue. I call it a grey area.

[thade]

See the links in Seahawk's Post...which address precisely what you're asking.

 

Short answer: No, chainfists and turbo pen rounds do not get more than 1d6 for penetration.

 

I don't feel like there's a conclusive argument either way here. My gut feeling is that I agree with you, and that Living Metal precludes more than 1d6 pen from these sources. However, in the other threads I've seen on this topic there has not been an argument presented which I found can sweep away doubt on this issue. I call it a grey area.

For (hopefully) two more months at most. <3 Hang on to your hats.

[Dan VK]

See the links in Seahawk's Post...which address precisely what you're asking.

 

Short answer: No, chainfists and turbo pen rounds do not get more than 1d6 for penetration.

 

I don't feel like there's a conclusive argument either way here. My gut feeling is that I agree with you, and that Living Metal precludes more than 1d6 pen from these sources. However, in the other threads I've seen on this topic there has not been an argument presented which I found can sweep away doubt on this issue. I call it a grey area.

Turbo-penetrator states that four dice are rolled for Armor Penetration, but Living Metal states that Armor Penetration rolls against it do not get additional dice, and the BRB states that Armor Penetration is S+1D6. I do not see any other side of the argument.

 

 

[EDIT: 4D6 dice is a lot of dice! Corrected.]

[thade]

You have to keep in mind that all armor penetration in the game is written from that perspective: normal armor pen is S+1d6. Any weapon that in any way increases this number of dice - regardless of how it's worded - is increasing this number of dice.

 

Living Metal says you cannot increase the dice. So...whereas Turbo Pen gives you 4d6 to pen (which is 3d6 beyond the standard 1d6), Living Armor forbids it and restrict you to 1d6.

 

As a RAI addendum...srsly, gaiz. The poor Necrons. Give them a break. Sheesh.

[Jacinda]

In a month and a half it will no longer matter anyway.

[Jacinda]

You have to keep in mind that all armor penetration in the game is written from that perspective: normal armor pen is S+1d6.

So one could argue that Armor Pen is weapon + the dice roll. Since Living Metal does not allow any additional dice, the Armor Pen is the weapon's strength only. No additional dice at all.

:lol:

 

 

As a RAI addendum...srsly, gaiz. The poor Necrons. Give them a break. Sheesh.

Who shoots at a monolith anyway? Turn those weapons against his troops and the monolith phases out with the rest of the army.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

You have to keep in mind that all armor penetration in the game is written from that perspective: normal armor pen is S+1d6.

So one could argue that Armor Pen is weapon + the dice roll. Since Living Metal does not allow any additional dice, the Armor Pen is the weapon's strength only. No additional dice at all.

:lol:

 

 

As a RAI addendum...srsly, gaiz. The poor Necrons. Give them a break. Sheesh.

Who shoots at a monolith anyway? Turn those weapons against his troops and the monolith phases out with the rest of the army.

Too bad if the nercon player is any good he will pull the guys that fall over through the monolith to get another We be back roll. I really hate that tactic.

[thade]

You have to keep in mind that all armor penetration in the game is written from that perspective: normal armor pen is S+1d6.

So one could argue that Armor Pen is weapon + the dice roll. Since Living Metal does not allow any additional dice, the Armor Pen is the weapon's strength only. No additional dice at all.

:lol:

The +1d6 isn't additional in this context; it's standard armor pen. Nice and easy.

 

Also, I've killed Monoliths more often with shooting (Lascannon Devs and Vindicators) than melee (S10 Dreads and Librarians). In fact, one particular S10 Librarian is why I feel bad for Necrons. :(

[Ravinella]

Isn't there a "2nd edition" of the Necron codex that is specific on Vindicare rounds in the living metal rule ?

[thade]

Isn't there a "2nd edition" of the Necron codex that is specific on Vindicare rounds in the living metal rule ?

If only it were relevant given the "more recent" version of their codex (which supercedes it). If Ward is in fact writing the new rulebook as rumors suggest, I feel it's very likely the Living Metal rule will address things like Turbo Pen ammo.

[Morollan]

You have to keep in mind that all armor penetration in the game is written from that perspective: normal armor pen is S+1d6. Any weapon that in any way increases this number of dice - regardless of how it's worded - is increasing this number of dice.

 

Living Metal says you cannot increase the dice. So...whereas Turbo Pen gives you 4d6 to pen (which is 3d6 beyond the standard 1d6), Living Armor forbids it and restrict you to 1d6.

 

As a RAI addendum...srsly, gaiz. The poor Necrons. Give them a break. Sheesh.

 

The only argument appears to be whether the turbo pen shot follows the normal rules for armour pen. If so, it gets 4d6+3 normally but a simple d6+3 against living metal. If not though, it gets 4d6 vs any vehicle including monoliths. Can't make up my mind on this one. The GK FAQ really could have cleared this up so easily :(

[thade]

The wording is a bit hard to get around, but you have to remember something. GW writes many of it rules assuming crap it obvious...that's what really obfuscates things. If it's not clear, it's likely because they made an assumption; safe to think they made the simplest one. Either way, it's always best for us to make the simplest assumption possible. ;)

 

Which is...

 

Standard armor pen is S+1d6. Anything past that is additional dice which Living Metal rules out.

 

The best example is the Chainfist, which in some dexs is listed as getting 2d6 armor pen, yet is also listed as a specific thing that Living Metal negates.

 

What follows is thade-style conjecture. Brace yourself.

 

It makes more sense the more I think about it. If they said instead this: "Chain fists get +1d6 armor pen (on top of the standard 1d6)" it would take up a lot more space than this "Chain fists get 2d6 armor pen." It's a type-setter win/editor fail. :(

 

I remember once that the Math department at my alma mater tried to form a relationship with the English department (and save some money) by having the English professors/staff edit their math texts. The resulting text books were, of course, unusable...as in many cases math language is awkward insofar as grammar is concerned as it's chief goal is to be unambiguous with math. So, the texts were trashed, and there's a divide between the departments now.

 

I can't prove it, but I suspect GW rules are a case where the English staff wins over the Math staff.

 

EDIT: Annotations and formatting and word choices and typos and it's basically a whole new thing.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Does the living metal rule stop the +1 from Tank Hunter?

 

It's not an extra dice, and it doesn't lower the actual AV of the Monolith...

 

PS - Sorry if I'm off topic, but I figured it fit with the discussion.

[Something Wycked]

Yes. I forget the verbage, but Living Metal essentially forbids any extras from affecting the Monolith at all.

[Dan VK]

Does the living metal rule stop the +1 from Tank Hunter?

 

It's not an extra dice, and it doesn't lower the actual AV of the Monolith...

"Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melt weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score." C:N pg21

 

"They add+1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (both at range and in close combat)." BRB pg76

 

I do not see anything that would stop the bonus from the Tank Hunter USR. As you stated, it does not grant an extra die, nor does it count the Armor Value as lower than it is.

[Something Wycked]

;) Maybe that's a holdover from the old codex? Or maybe I'm just going with what my group decided ;)

[Dan VK]

;) Maybe that's a holdover from the old codex? Or maybe I'm just going with what my group decided ;)

What your group decided makes more sense to me. ^_^ Silly GW.

[thade]

lol

 

I think it's fine. Tank Hunters is especially rare and exists to demonstrate just how good a unit as at taking down massive, non-organic things. Why wouldn't it apply to the Monolith? "Living Metal" is non-organic by definition. All Necrons are. <3

 

Also...it's +ONE. It's okay. <3 It's even less an issue than whether a Vindicare gets S3 or S0 added to his Turbo Pen shot (which confuses some people into thinking it completely defies all armor penetration without actually explaining that's what it does).