Vindicare VS Monolith

[Brother Valerius]

Standard armor pen is S+1d6. Anything past that is additional dice which Living Metal rules out.

 

That's conjecture, though. Nowhere is it defined as such, and the argument against what you're saying is that since TP rounds get 4d6 penetration, that it is not additional dice... it is the normal amount of dice for that weapon. Your point about chainfists is persuasive, however, precedent counts for approximately squat when you're trying to nit-pick rules.

 

Keep in mind, that I agree with you (as I mentioned previously). I don't think that TP rounds should get 4d6 against a Monolith. But I think the opposition has a legitimate case here too. :)

[Dan VK]

Standard armor pen is S+1d6. Anything past that is additional dice which Living Metal rules out.

 

That's conjecture, though. Nowhere is it defined as such, and the argument against what you're saying is that since TP rounds get 4d6 penetration, that it is not additional dice... it is the normal amount of dice for that weapon. Your point about chainfists is persuasive, however, precedent counts for approximately squat when you're trying to nit-pick rules.

 

Keep in mind, that I agree with you (as I mentioned previously). I don't think that TP rounds should get 4d6 against a Monolith. But I think the opposition has a legitimate case here too. :)

"ARMOUR PENETRATION

Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually damage it. Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's Strength to it, comparing this total with the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle." BRB pg60

 

What the BRB directly states seems like a pretty good norm to me. The rules state 1D6 is rolled, not 2D6, 3D6, 4D6, or 12D6; anything more than 1D6 is additional.

[Brother Valerius]

The argument of those who favor the other interpretation is essentially that when the GK codex states that the TP round rolls 4d6 for armor penetration, that is the new baseline. So they are not additional, they are the base penetration that this round gets.

 

You are defining additional to mean anything beyond 1d6, which I agree is reasonable... but that's your definition and my definition, not the rules' definition. They do not speak to that particular question.

[greatcrusade08]

You are defining additional to mean anything beyond 1d6, which I agree is reasonable... but that's your definition and my definition, not the rules' definition. They do not speak to that particular question.

 

+1 to this, there is a big middle in regards to what constitutes actual armour penentration and therefore whats considered a 'bonus'.. remember that codex trumps rulebook..

 

in terms of which way to go, most people i know lean in favour of the necron monolith and say its only 1D6, i think for the most part its becuase they are 'weak', once thier dex gets a bopost you might see people changing thier minds

[Acebaur]

I can't believe this topic is still being debated. The Turbo Pen rounds clearly will roll only 1D6. Their entry as was noted is exactly like the chainfist entry (see below) which states a flat 2D6.

 

Pg 64 Codex Space Marine under the Chainfist entry "A Chainfist is treated exactly as a powerfist but rolls 2D6 for it's armor pen."

 

 

Pg 21 Codex Necrons Monolith entry: "Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

 

 

It clearly excludes chainfists and clearly is merely using it as an example as defined by the words SUCH AS.

 

Since the Turbo Pen rule is written in the same fashion as the chainfist, it is excluded. Also as others have said the BRB clearly defines how many dice you roll for normal armor pen.

 

How can you argue otherwise?

 

 

Also I seriously doubt that when the new Necron dex comes out people will be "less lenient" because they no longer feel bad. It is more likely that the entry for the Monolith will simply say "You may only ever roll 1D6 for armor pen regardless of other special rules" or something similar that will leave no wiggle room whatsoever for people to try and create imaginary "new baselines" simply because a weapon isn't listed in the examples

[greatcrusade08]

I can't believe this topic is still being debated. The Turbo Pen rounds clearly will roll only 1D6. Their entry as was noted is exactly like the chainfist entry (see below) which states a flat 2D6.

 

Pg 64 Codex Space Marine under the Chainfist entry "A Chainfist is treated exactly as a powerfist but rolls 2D6 for it's armor pen."

 

but doesnt the powerfist rule say youd roll double strength + D6 for armour pen, if a chainfist is to be treated as a fist but with 2D6 then the argument can be made for the second dice to be the extra one..

im not trying to be difficult and for a long time i thought exactly as you did, but nothing is ever clear.

my own opinion is that your correct, however its not stgated in clear wording that the turbopen round only rolls 1D6 vs monoliths, it is a true grey area

 

Since the Turbo Pen rule is written in the same fashion as the chainfist, it is excluded. Also as others have said the BRB clearly defines how many dice you roll for normal armor pen.

 

How can you argue otherwise?

 

because the wording is very poor, again i agree with your assertions, but its not 100% clear as your making out, the chainfist borrows from the powerfist rules which is outlined in the BRB, the turbo pen rounds are only in the GK codex, codex trumps rulebook.

the 'normal' armour pen for this round can be argued to be 4D6 only, that means no adding strength either..

its a bit of a stretch and a turd of an argument IMO, but its valid none the less

 

Also I seriously doubt that when the new Necron dex comes out people will be "less lenient" because they no longer feel bad. It is more likely that the entry for the Monolith will simply say "You may only ever roll 1D6 for armor pen regardless of other special rules" or something similar that will leave no wiggle room whatsoever for people to try and create imaginary "new baselines" simply because a weapon isn't listed in the examples

firstly i think you overestimate GWs ability to write clear concise rules, secondly people do err on the necrons side precisely becuase they are weak at the moment, its the consensus at my own club and ive no doubt its the same for others..

once necrons get an update and start kicking butt you really think people are going to be just as linient?

[Morollan]

I can't believe this topic is still being debated. The Turbo Pen rounds clearly will roll only 1D6. Their entry as was noted is exactly like the chainfist entry (see below) which states a flat 2D6.

 

Pg 64 Codex Space Marine under the Chainfist entry "A Chainfist is treated exactly as a powerfist but rolls 2D6 for it's armor pen."

 

The argument there is that by stating that the chainfist rolls 2d6 for armour pen it no longer adds strength to the roll. You have replaced the normal 1d6+strength with a straight 2d6. Exactly the same argument for turbo pen shots rolling straight 4d6 rather than 4d6+3. It is poorly written but I've come to expect that from GW. Pretending that there is no case to answer however is not helpful.

[Morticon]

Going back to the tank hunter question, is there not a blurb right after that rule quote in the cron dex about you never being able to roll more than the weapons standard strength plus a d6?

Or was that in the FAQ?

 

Im sure there is something about Tank Hunters not being allowed.

[Legatus]

A previous Necron FaQ had ruled that the "Tank Hunter" bonus would not apply against a Monolith, but that has been dropped from the current FaQ. IIRC in later printings of the Codex Necrons the Monolith rules were changed, and the line "in effect, all weapoins will only ever roll a single D6 plus their Strength to penetrate a Monolith" or something to that effect was added, which cleared up a lot of the questions regarding the Monolith. I do not have one of those later printing versions of the Codex Necrons, though, so I cannot confirm that.

[Acebaur]

The argument there is that by stating that the chainfist rolls 2d6 for armour pen it no longer adds strength to the roll. You have replaced the normal 1d6+strength with a straight 2d6. Exactly the same argument for turbo pen shots rolling straight 4d6 rather than 4d6+3. It is poorly written but I've come to expect that from GW. Pretending that there is no case to answer however is not helpful.

 

Where exactly does it say you don't add your strength? Are you really trying to say that a Chainfist and turbo pen rounds don't add strength to armor pen?

You are reading way to much into it if that's the case. Nowhere does it say you don't roll using the strength, those lines are telling you how many dice (plus your strength) you get when attacking a vehicle, dice that are not allowed against a Monolith(except of course the standard 1D6)

 

But if you must have pg numbers to prove your twisted logic wrong here you go.

 

The Chainfist and Turbo Pen say that they roll xD6 for Armor Penetration

 

Pg 63 BRB Armor Penetration in close combat: "Armor penetration is worked out in the same was as shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)..."

 

If they didn't want you to use the strength it would say "don't use the strength" see Sniper weapons, as they have a X for their strength because of their special rules.

 

I still don't see how there could be any confusion on this one, it is as clear an answer as any rules query I've ever seen.

 

 

To answer the other question about Tank Hunters. No where in the Necron Dex or FAQ does it say you can't use tank hunters. It only forbids extra dice, or things that reduce the AV of the vehicle. TH does neither of these.

[Morollan]

The turbo pen rule states that it has an armour penetration of 4d6. It does not say that it rolls an extra 3d6 for armour penetration, it replaces the normal mechanic. The same logic can be applied to chainfists, although I'm sure that was not the intent. I'm not so sure about the turbo pen round though as 4d6+3 with rending on each die is a bit over the top, even for the GK Codex.

[thade]

The turbo pen rule states that it has an armour penetration of 4d6.

Yep. And how many dice is that beyond the standard 1d6? :D

 

See Dan VK's summary above, it really is on the money. They set a standard. The Turbo Pen supercedes it. Confusing due to a type setter winning over the rules editor, perhaps. But just like the chainfist (which states it gets 2d6 armor pen yet is listed in the Living Metal rule as one of the many examples which don't get their extra dice) it uses only 1d6 for penetration rolls.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The turbo pen rule states that it has an armour penetration of 4d6. It does not say that it rolls an extra 3d6 for armour penetration, it replaces the normal mechanic. The same logic can be applied to chainfists, although I'm sure that was not the intent. I'm not so sure about the turbo pen round though as 4d6+3 with rending on each die is a bit over the top, even for the GK Codex.

Nothing is Overpowered in the GK Codex everyone knows that Grey Knights are really just the Primarches in disguise so that is just want they are. It can't be overpowered if it started that way right?

 

Now after they joke. Yea I think that the 4d6+3 with Rending is insane really. What do you need that much armour pen for that is a max of a roll of 39. What is it doing punching through two Land Raiders?

[thade]

The Vindicare can effectively take out five models in a game. In a list that doesn't have melta weaponry readily available to it and a model that's sometimes better used taking out hidden power fists or Iron Halos, it's really not that bad.

[Morollan]

The turbo pen rule states that it has an armour penetration of 4d6.

Yep. And how many dice is that beyond the standard 1d6? ;)

 

See Dan VK's summary above, it really is on the money. They set a standard. The Turbo Pen supercedes it. Confusing due to a type setter winning over the rules editor, perhaps. But just like the chainfist (which states it gets 2d6 armor pen yet is listed in the Living Metal rule as one of the many examples which don't get their extra dice) it uses only 1d6 for penetration rolls.

 

You're assuming a cause for the confusing wording but it is entirely possible that it is intentional. I honestly think that the turbo pen round is supposed to have a straight 4d6 armour pen without strength being added. And that is exactly what the rule states for it. No interpretation required. RAW.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

The Vindicare can effectively take out five models in a game. In a list that doesn't have melta weaponry readily available to it and a model that's sometimes better used taking out hidden power fists or Iron Halos, it's really not that bad.

Well with that shot it can destroy two Land Raiders and still kill a guy or two on the other side. Which would be cool if they could do that.

 

But back to topic. The 4d6 with the Monolith is a huge grey area but the rule for living Metal says any additional dices can't be use but the Turbo shot says its use 4d6 base armour pen so its really hazy, foggy, cloudy, grey, and alot of other terms about what is done here. Really until the new Necron codex comes out or GW FAQs it we will not know and I am guessing it will be ironed out in the Codex and anyways we don't know that the Monolith will have the Living Metal rule in the new codex or not.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Turbo Penetrator rolls 4d6 as base/standard value. It has not addional dices the living metal rule can deny. If I remember correctly even in the previous edition the Vindicare was not subject to that limitation.

Of course you cannot benefit from the rending 6 but you get the full "4 d6".

 

If the rules stated "The vindicare rolls 3 additional d6 for armour penetration" then the Living metal rule would come in function but the rule text is different ;)

[thade]

You're assuming a cause for the confusing wording but it is entirely possible that it is intentional. I honestly think that the turbo pen round is supposed to have a straight 4d6 armour pen without strength being added. And that is exactly what the rule states for it. No interpretation required. RAW.

How then do you explain the chainfist corollary? Chainfists are listed as having 2d6 armor pen "straight", yet are listed along with exceptions in Living Metal...it's not a special exception either, it's lumped in with melta weaponry.

 

I see the Turbo Pen and the Chainfist to be very, very similar.

[Cmdr Shepard]

yet are listed along with exceptions in Living Metal...

You have your answer: they are listed, so there is no controversy. Turbo penetrator was already excluded and for a logical reason, in my opinion.

The chainfist gives actually an additional D6: the model already rolls a d6. Turbo penetrator has a completely different mechanics but it seems no one will be able to prove their statements. Unless untill a new FAQ is released.

[falldown]

As has been stated, Armor Pen is listed as STR + 1d6. 2d6, 4d6, those constitute additional dice beyond the listed Armor Penetration value, which is why Chainfist is specifically mentioned. Since the turbo pen is written in exactly the same format as the Chainfist, the existing standard would encompass the Turbo Pen.

 

The does it get its STR included is similar. Armor Pen attempts include the STR of the weapon. Sniper weapons are STR 3 when attempting to penetrate. Turbo Pen is a sniper weapon, it includes its STR 3 on Pen attempts.

 

If the Chainfist rolling 2d6 is the Chainfist getting an extra d6, then the Turbo Pen is getting an extra 3d6...

[thade]

As ever, such lists are examples and are in fact not exhaustive. They don't list every single exception; they can't in an ever-expanding game.

 

The path that makes the fewest and simplest assumptions results in 1d6 for the Turbo Pen Round; it makes sense for it to behave as much as it can like everything else we're accustomed to. If it were as radical an exception as people imply at times (i.e. if it really was a straight, ignoring its own strength, 4d6 penetration) then that would be clearly stated. It is not clearly stated, so we fall back on what we know...as GW expects us to and, really, we must do pretty frequently with this rule set.

 

edit: conjugation

[Cmdr Shepard]

If the Chainfist rolling 2d6 is the Chainfist getting an extra d6, then the Turbo Pen is getting an extra 3d6...

Turbo Penetrator rules, as it written, replace the standard armour penetration with the 4d6.

 

Once I was told in Warhammer game universe we shouldn't use the text of other rules for intepretation but it seems we have no other choice.

Hence:

Living Metal rule states the Monolith is immune to any additional dice for AP,

Living Metal rule's text mentions chainfists, thus chainfists grant an addional d6

Turbo Pen rules stats the Vindicare rolls 4d6 for AP not "rolls 3 additional d6", thus Living metal has no effect on it.

 

Remember even in the previous edition Vindicare rolled his full 3d6 against Monolith as stated by an official GW document.

Why the Vindicare wasn't mentioned in the Monolith's rule? A similar rule was already present in the game. The C'tan rules clearly stae the Callidus' weapon cannot harm them so why didn't the Codex stats the Vindicare rolls only a single dice? Because GW wanted to mantain Vindicare's AP cabability.

 

I'm sure there will be many persons who will not agree with me and sadly no one can prove to be right because the rules we are talking about are not very clear.

Discuss with your gaming group and find a friendly solution to the issue. If it's not possible roll a dice. We play warhammer for fun ;)

[falldown]

Living Metal's text : "Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith." That list is not exhaustive. The Turbo Pen is not an exception. It is a weapon such as a chainfist. It used to be specifically excepted, but continuing to use something that is not in the rules anymore as a rule proof is incorrect.

 

If I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong, Chainfists say "rolls 2d6 for AP"

[thade]

Turbo Penetrator rules, as it written, replace the standard armour penetration with the 4d6.

Actually, as-written they state the Turbo Pen has 4d6 armor penetration. The word "replace" would make it more clear; all your usage of it there does is highlight your underlying assumption.

 

Does it replace? Or does it work like everything else does? The simplest assumption is the latter. When you take this assumption, we're back to 1d6.

 

If we were meant to use the former, they would have been much more clear. Even if it was their intention (and that's not clear to any of us) we have only that much to work on.

 

Listen to Occam. He is your friend.

 

ADDENDUM: The use of the words "such as" very clearly show the list is not exhaustive. Chainfists are in many cases listed to have strictly 2d6 armor pen. And there we are.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Living Metal's text : "Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith." That list is not exhaustive. The Turbo Pen is not an exception. It is a weapon such as a chainfist. It used to be specifically excepted, but continuing to use something that is not in the rules anymore as a rule proof is incorrect.

Except for the fact the Turbo Pen does not get additional dices: it gets 4d6 as standard.

However it's clear there will not any chance to risolve this "interpretation issue", unless Gw releases a new FAQ. As I said, find "gentlemen agreement" with your opponent or roll a dice.

There are Necron players that consider "unfair" the 4d6 pen, and there are GK players the consider "unfair" denying it. The issue is becoming a loop ;)

So roll a dice and continue the game. In a tournament there will be a judge.