Vindicare VS Monolith

[thade]

Except for the fact the Turbo Pen does not get additional dices: it gets 4d6 as standard.

Reeeead before you pooooooost.

 

It's not clear that it replaces. It may simply add to, which is what everything else does (like the Chainfist). See my previous response.

[falldown]

"A turbo-penetrator shot has an Armour Penetration of 4D6." C:GK pg 53

 

"A chainfist is treated exactly as a power fist, but rolls 2D6 for its armour penetration value." C:SM pg 64

 

Should these be considered differently in how they apply, per their writing?

[thade]

Looks to me like Chainfists strictly get 2d6 armor pen; the dice are not added, given that writing.

 

Why, then, are they included as an example of things Living Metal nerfs?

 

A contradiction. This is because one of my premises is false. The false premise is that Chainfists strictly get 2d6 armor pen. It seems instead that they get an additional 1d6 on top of the standard...which fits the rules better and doesn't confuse or break anything.

 

Given how alike the rules are written, it stands to reason that they work the same.

 

I mean...I'm satisfied here. <3

[Acebaur]

Looks to me like Chainfists strictly get 2d6 armor pen; the dice are not added, given that writing.

 

Why, then, are they included as an example of things Living Metal nerfs?

 

A contradiction. This is because one of my premises is false. The false premise is that Chainfists strictly get 2d6 armor pen. It seems instead that they get an additional 1d6 on top of the standard...which fits the rules better and doesn't confuse or break anything.

 

Given how alike the rules are written, it stands to reason that they work the same.

 

I mean...I'm satisfied here. <3

 

 

I agree, trying to say that the turbo pen is some how differently worded or meant differently than the chainfist is impossible to defend. The same goes to trying to say that a list of weapons that starts with "such as" is exhaustive is equally impossible.

 

The Turbo pen rolls 1D6 against the Monolith period. You cannot prove otherwise.

[maxkool]

I don't have it in front of me but I do have the second Printing of the necron codex.

After it explains the living metal and additional dice rule it makes mention that this means all wepons effectively can only roll one dice for armour pen. How is that not clear...it dosnt matter if it's 4d6 or 50d6 the living metal rule forbids rolling more than one dice for armor pen period.

I have both printings of the codex and this line was added to the 2nd one to clear Things like this up.

If u like when I get home I can type it out word for word. I've been playing necrOns since they were chaos androids with a crappy WD list and Ive never had anyone argue with the 2nd printing. The first one was leas clear And left it open to arguments....

[thade]

I don't have it in front of me but I do have the second Printing of the necron codex....

For better or worse, we can really only include the most recent printing in our discussion. ;) It's sad that previous versions are easier to comprehend...and, honestly, because they are easier to comprehend GW probably (silently) assumes that we just "get it".

 

However, the older versions hold no bearing on the rules anymore. So...we're stuck with the new(est) ones. At least until even newer ones hit the shelves in a matter of months.

[Legatus]

I don't have it in front of me but I do have the second Printing of the necron codex.

I have mentioned the updated rules for the Monolith already, but an individual can claim things he' sure he read somewhere all day. What we really need would be for someone to quote that "all weapons only roll a single D6" line from the revised Codex Necrons. That would settle this discussion. If you could get a hold of your Codex and do that, that would be great.

[Roesor]

Isn't it phrased 'don't get an extra d6' and so wouldn't apply to the vindicare as the 4d6 is actually more determining the strength of the weapon?

[Morollan]

The Turbo pen rolls 1D6 against the Monolith period. You cannot prove otherwise.

 

And you cannot prove your argument. That's why it's an argument. And, as I said earlier, this "I'm right, you're wrong, so there!" attitude is not helpful.

[Legatus]

It appears the current version of the Monolith rules are quoted in this thread.

 

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

Based on that, a Vindicare with Turbo Penetrator would roll the basic 3+D6 for Armour Penetration. The thread also includes a link to an old Necron FaQ where the (Witch Hunter) Turbo Penetrator was given as an exception and was said to work against the Monolith. However, the current Necron FaQ does not say so, and the Grey Hunter Turbo Penetrator has changed rules.

[Acebaur]

The Turbo pen rolls 1D6 against the Monolith period. You cannot prove otherwise.

 

And you cannot prove your argument. That's why it's an argument. And, as I said earlier, this "I'm right, you're wrong, so there!" attitude is not helpful.

 

 

See that's just it, we have proved already, multiple times. But I'll go over it one more time.

 

The Turbo Pen and Chainfist entries are written in the same fashion. They both state that the weapon gets xD6 number of dice for armor pen.

 

The Monolith entry has a list of examples of weapons that get additional dice and so are not allowed to roll more than 1d6. The chainfist is included in this list which clearly not exhaustive because it starts with "such as".

 

So if the wording on their rules is the same, and the list is not exhaustive, then how do you figure that the Turbo Pen is somehow excluded from the Living Metal rule?

[Meatman]

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

 

Quoted again to make sure people see it.

That last bit in the living metal rule is usually overlooked when people try to argue for the "extra" D6s. And yes, they are all extra D6s.

 

4D6 is more then strength + D6. Therefore they are extra? It's not hard, people.

[maxkool]

I don't have it in front of me but I do have the second Printing of the necron codex.

I have mentioned the updated rules for the Monolith already, but an individual can claim things he' sure he read somewhere all day. What we really need would be for someone to quote that "all weapons only roll a single D6" line from the revised Codex Necrons. That would settle this discussion. If you could get a hold of your Codex and do that, that would be great.

 

 

 

WOW Can anyone READ...

 

I said i HAD THE 2nd PRINTING wich is the most recent... let me go get it....

 

 

Teh quote says " In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armor penetration using its un-augmented strength and a SINGLE D6 no matter what"

 

 

There you go. Page 21, end of the living metal rules paragraph. This is from the 2nd Printing of the necron codex and IS THE most up to date as of today.

 

This should end it .

 

hahah I just noticed all the similar replies...

 

THER IS a REASON why the Lith is the hardest thing to bust in the game IMO. This is it.

But when you look at the power of the lith... its not a killer its a true heavy SUPPORT unit and does little in my experience to threaten the enemy directly. Its the WBB reroll i take it for... and teleporting out of combat.... if u survive...

[falldown]

What Max said. He beat me to it. Also no, the earlier edition was not easier. I have both in front of me right now. I will not quote the original, because it doesn't matter. It lacked the "no matter what" line. That is the only difference. The rest of the entry is verbatim.

[Legatus]

WOW Can anyone READ...

 

I said i HAD THE 2nd PRINTING wich is the most recent... let me go get it....

I assume that was actually in reply to thade's post, and not to mine?

[falldown]

OT : Grats on 6000 Legatus :cuss

[Brother Valerius]

The Turbo pen rolls 1D6 against the Monolith period. You cannot prove otherwise.

 

And you cannot prove your argument. That's why it's an argument. And, as I said earlier, this "I'm right, you're wrong, so there!" attitude is not helpful.

 

 

See that's just it, we have proved already, multiple times. But I'll go over it one more time.

 

The Turbo Pen and Chainfist entries are written in the same fashion. They both state that the weapon gets xD6 number of dice for armor pen.

 

The Monolith entry has a list of examples of weapons that get additional dice and so are not allowed to roll more than 1d6. The chainfist is included in this list which clearly not exhaustive because it starts with "such as".

 

So if the wording on their rules is the same, and the list is not exhaustive, then how do you figure that the Turbo Pen is somehow excluded from the Living Metal rule?

 

No. It has not been proved once. You have provided solid arguments in defense of your case, but it has not been proved yet, and probably cannot be. Morollan is quite right, the prevailing attitude in this thread that "all reason is on my side and you have not a shred of case" is disheartening (to put it tactfully). This is very much a case in the rules where it can be interpreted in two lights with reasonable validity.

[Something Wycked]

No. It has not been proved once. You have provided solid arguments in defense of your case, but it has not been proved yet, and probably cannot be. Morollan is quite right, the prevailing attitude in this thread that "all reason is on my side and you have not a shred of case" is disheartening (to put it tactfully). This is very much a case in the rules where it can be interpreted in two lights with reasonable validity.

+1

 

There's no need to cop an attitude with B&C brothers when we're just having a friendly rules discussion about standard-issue ambiguous rules.

[Acebaur]

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

 

Quoted again to make sure people see it.

That last bit in the living metal rule is usually overlooked when people try to argue for the "extra" D6s. And yes, they are all extra D6s.

 

4D6 is more then strength + D6. Therefore they are extra? It's not hard, people.

 

 

Well Valerius, apparently it has been proved. Somehow we all managed to overlook this sentence :D (in the above post). I don't think there can be any argument about it now.

[Brother Valerius]

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

 

Quoted again to make sure people see it.

That last bit in the living metal rule is usually overlooked when people try to argue for the "extra" D6s. And yes, they are all extra D6s.

 

4D6 is more then strength + D6. Therefore they are extra? It's not hard, people.

 

 

Well Valerius, apparently it has been proved. Somehow we all managed to overlook this sentence :P (in the above post). I don't think there can be any argument about it now.

 

Quite so. I hadn't seen that. :tu:

 

It does raise the important question, of course, as to why in the Warp GW chose to write the first half of the rule in at all, when the part Legatus quoted is quite clear and sufficient. I know that the Necron codex is super old, and mistakes made in it are old mistakes now, but I do wish that GW would hire some half-decent editors to go over their rules. It's shameful the state they allow the rules to be published in.

[Acebaur]

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

 

Quoted again to make sure people see it.

That last bit in the living metal rule is usually overlooked when people try to argue for the "extra" D6s. And yes, they are all extra D6s.

 

4D6 is more then strength + D6. Therefore they are extra? It's not hard, people.

 

 

Well Valerius, apparently it has been proved. Somehow we all managed to overlook this sentence :P (in the above post). I don't think there can be any argument about it now.

 

Quite so. I hadn't seen that. :tu:

 

It does raise the important question, of course, as to why in the Warp GW chose to write the first half of the rule in at all, when the part Legatus quoted is quite clear and sufficient. I know that the Necron codex is super old, and mistakes made in it are old mistakes now, but I do wish that GW would hire some half-decent editors to go over their rules. It's shameful the state they allow the rules to be published in.

 

 

Yeah sadly it seems like sometimes GW does just enough to get by with the rules. Sometimes not even that. Afterall they are miniatures company and that is what they care most about.

[Legatus]

That last bit in the living metal rule is usually overlooked when people try to argue for the "extra" D6s.

It is usually overlooked because the initial editions of the Codex Necrons did not include that last sentence. And the "online versions" of the Codex *cough* are generally of the first edition Codex. (My Codex is from teh initial edition. And in german... so no help there)

 

 

It does raise the important question, of course, as to why in the Warp GW chose to write the first half of the rule in at all, when the part Legatus quoted is quite clear and sufficient.

The final sentence was added later, so it may not be completely tuned to the rest of the rule text.

 

The main problem I see is that someone possessing the initial edition of the Codex Necrons now has no way of getting the errata version, and may not even be aware that it exists. GW had done similar with the Obliterators in the 3.5 Codex Chaos. They had initially been T5, but were clarified in an FaQ to have T4(5) instead (or maybe it was the other way around). However, after a few months, GW included that errata in the newer editions of the Codex Chaos Space Marines and then dropped that clarification from the FaQ, meaning that now people with the initial edition of the Codex were now not able to find that errata. Apparently GW expects players to buy updated versions of their Codex when they are released. I did that with the revised 3rd Edition Dark Angels Codex, but I did not bother to buy a new 3rd Edition Codex Dark Eldar, 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines or 3rd Edition Codex Necrons.

 

GW's service in terms of rule support and FaQs leaves a lot to be desired. At least they started publishing FaQs again.

[falldown]

For everyone that has the Necron codex, you can tell if you have the "current" one on the first page inside the cover. At the bottom of the page there will be a copyright blurb. If under the copyright blurb there is more text, you have the original release. If under the copyright blurb you see in tiny letters, "second printing" you have the updated codex.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I read carefully the Rulebook and the GK codex and I came to the following explanation:

 

The rulebook states the Armour penetration value is "S+d6"; thus chainfists, metla and similar weapons grant additional dices, denied by "living metal" rule.

The Vindicare's Turbo Pen rule states "the vindicare has a 4d6 armour pen value". point. The Exitus rifle's ammo alter the weapon profile, like sternguard bolter, giving a full 4d6 AP. This means you cannot add S3 to the 4d6.

 

Standard AP "S+d6"; Turbo Pen Ap "4d6". As you can see this is a exception to the common rule.

I know some Necron players like to consider the Monolith an auto-win unit but I suppose the interpretation I wrote above sounds logical.

 

If a player want to "downgrade" the Vindicare and give the Monolith an advantage he/she is free to do, but the rule we are talking about is a clear exception to the common AP process.

As I said before if you cannot find a friendly solution than both players should roll a dice in order to set the issue. However for what I saw at my local store the Vindicare vs monolith is an issue that ruined many games where both players considered the opposite interpretation unfair. I never saw something like that on the table-top. End of my personal experience's description. :mellow:

[Legatus]

Standard AP "S+d6"; Turbo Pen Ap "4d6". As you can see this is a exception to the common rule.

I know some Necron players like to consider the Monolith an auto-win unit but I suppose the interpretation I wrote above sounds logical.

 

If a player want to "downgrade" the Vindicare and give the Monolith an advantage he/she is free to do, but the rule we are talking about is a clear exception to the common AP process.

Every weapon that rolls additional dice or has other bonuses for Armour Penetration is an exception to the normal Armour Penetration rules. The Monolith rules specifically adress such "exceptional" weapons and state that they cannot use their exceptional rules.

 

I.e. a Meltagun within short range does not roll 8+D6 for Armour Penetration. It gets an additional die and rolls 8+2D6. But the Monolith overrules that improved Armour Penetration.

Similarly, a turbo penetrator shot would not roll 3+D6 for Armour Penetration. It would instead roll 4D6. But, again, the Monolith overrules that improved Armour Penetration.

 

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

 

The Turbo Penetrator special AP rules are no different from any other weapon with improved AP rules and in no way overrides that line from the Monolith rule.