Purifier question...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Weird, I swear I saw it in a FAQ somewhere....I do know you can pull that particular shenanigan off though, Tyranids do it all the time (move so only one model is close enough to assault and get into BTB, 'Defenders React' drags enemy unit out of cover, rest of unit piles in). Hmmm, take a Redeemer instead of a Raven if you're not sure. That way there will be no arguments.

[Blood Scorpion]

Weird, I swear I saw it in a FAQ somewhere....I do know you can pull that particular shenanigan off though, Tyranids do it all the time (move so only one model is close enough to assault and get into BTB, 'Defenders React' drags enemy unit out of cover, rest of unit piles in). Hmmm, take a Redeemer instead of a Raven if you're not sure. That way there will be no arguments.

I think you've got this wrong mate. The Defenders React rule (p.34) states that the unit that has been assaulted reacts after ALL assault moves have been made. You cannot use one unit to drag an enemy out of cover and then assault with another unit in the same turn. Anyway, let's get back on topic...

 

In a Purifer army (ie one that has 3 large squads of them) I think it makes sense to have one tooled up for combat to act as a spearhead or counter assault. Therefore would suggest that you take no heavy weapons so that you can keep their Nemeisis Force Weapons and also mount them in a Stormraven/Land Raider so that you get the assault off. Upgrade most of them with Halberds so that they hit first most of the time and take a couple of Hammers to hurt higher toughness opponents (and Instant Kill T4 characters without the need to use the Force Weapons). There are a few units that have the edge on the Purifers, but I still believe that 90% of opponents will be taken down in combat by a unit of 10 Purifers thanks to the high Initiative and Force Weapons - making them an excellent close combat unit.

 

If they get the charge I even think that they'd do okay against a squad of five TH/SS Termiators. If you can get Hammerhand off your 8 Halberds should kill 2-3 Terminators and your Hammers should kill 1 more. You'll lose 2-3 Purifers as they hit you back, but then in their turn you should finish them off before they get to hit you, allowing you to move freely in your next turn.

 

Compare that to having a a squad with 4 Psycannons and 6 Storm Bolters shooting at the Terminators, even if you don't move (allowing 16 Psycannon shots) you'll kill 2-3 Terminators, meaning that another one of your units needs to shoot at them too to make sure that they do not get to charge into your units in their next turn. Now, I know there a many factors that could influence such scenarios (other units, Independant Characters, bad dice etc) but this highlights the benefit of close combat - the fact that your units can kill the enemy in their turn too, multiplying their effectiveness (not to mention the annoyance of Cover Saves against your shooting attacks).

 

In an army that has 4+ shooty units (2 other Purifer squads and a couple of Strike Squads plus transports) I think there is room for, and a need for, a unit that is designed to engage the enemy head on as this will give you more tactical flexibility and pose a different threat for your opponent to worry about. Heck, if you've got the points, give them Psybolt Ammo for 20 S5 Storm Bolter shots without diminishing their close combat prowess.

 

So in answer to the original post, how about the following load out for your Purifer Army?

 

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 8, Hammer x 2, Psybolt Ammo - 286pts

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 5, Hammer x 1, Psycannon x 4 - 295pts

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 5, Hammer x 1, Psycannon x 4 - 295pts

 

Add in transports and a HQ (and Troops if you arn't using Crowe) and you're done.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think you've got this wrong mate. The Defenders React rule (p.34) states that the unit that has been assaulted reacts after ALL assault moves have been made. You cannot use one unit to drag an enemy out of cover and then assault with another unit in the same turn. Anyway, let's get back on topic...

 

I would love to stand corrected on this ^_^ , I've had it done to me many a time. It's part of the reason I gave up with Tau as an army (one of a multitude)

 

In a Purifer army (ie one that has 3 large squads of them) I think it makes sense to have one tooled up for combat to act as a spearhead or counter assault. Therefore would suggest that you take no heavy weapons so that you can keep their Nemeisis Force Weapons and also mount them in a Stormraven/Land Raider so that you get the assault off. Upgrade most of them with Halberds so that they hit first most of the time and take a couple of Hammers to hurt higher toughness opponents (and Instant Kill T4 characters without the need to use the Force Weapons). There are a few units that have the edge on the Purifers, but I still believe that 90% of opponents will be taken down in combat by a unit of 10 Purifers thanks to the high Initiative and Force Weapons - making them an excellent close combat unit.

 

Yeah, but then you've made it your Deathstar. Because the enemy know (just from looking at your list, and how the other two Purifier units are equipped) how you're going to use them, they can then devise counter-strategies. Most notably, sending in an expendable unit for you to kill, then expose yourself to their gunline+counter-assaults.

You're correct that most things will not want to tango with you, but you've made your strategy obvious. If you have three identical Purifier units, all equipped for both close-combat and ranged support (1 hammer, 5 halberds, 4 psycannons), the enemy is faced with a quandry. All three are potent threats at any distance, and it's unlikely they can eliminate all three or tie them up (Purifiers have a built-in anti-tarpit power). You know when you're going to advance into hacky distance, who is going to fall back and provide cover fire, who is going to stand their ground and bait etc, but the enemy have no idea until you make those moves.

 

In an army that has 4+ shooty units (2 other Purifer squads and a couple of Strike Squads plus transports) I think there is room for, and a need for, a unit that is designed to engage the enemy head on as this will give you more tactical flexibility and pose a different threat for your opponent to worry about. Heck, if you've got the points, give them Psybolt Ammo for 20 S5 Storm Bolter shots without diminishing their close combat prowess.

 

Psybolt is a waste of points, for the same price I can buy two psycannons, which are far more effective at boosting your damage against all targets (not just infantry/light armour). You would only be giving up 4-6 close-combat attacks, which is a fair trade IMO.

On your point of the need for a close-combat presence, I agree wholeheartedly. But don't task any one Purifier unit with this role. Instead, take a completely different unit to fufill that purpose. 5-man Paladin squad at 1.5k, 10-man Terminator blob at 2k, both at 2.5k.

 

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 8, Hammer x 2, Psybolt Ammo - 286pts

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 5, Hammer x 1, Psycannon x 4 - 295pts

Purifer Squad, KotF & 9 GKs with Halberd x 5, Hammer x 1, Psycannon x 4 - 295pts

 

Like I said, I dislike straying from the 'good at all things' build that the two 295pt squads have. The flexible Purifiers can combat squad and get a lot of freedom in doing so (maximum psycannon in one unit, all the hacky dudes in one, or a mix in both combat squads).

[Blood Scorpion]

Psybolt is a waste of points, for the same price I can buy two psycannons, which are far more effective at boosting your damage against all targets (not just infantry/light armour). You would only be giving up 4-6 close-combat attacks, which is a fair trade IMO.

The Psycannons add nothing against Light Infantry - 20 S5 Storm Bolter shots equals 8.9 kills against T3 with 5+ Save (not including cover saves). Add in four Psycannons and if you want to move you get the same outcome as they still only get 2 shots each and wound on a 2+. Against MEQ they provide about 0.9 more wounds (3.85 vs 2.96), but then take away Force Weapon Attacks from 40% of the unit. What the Psycannons give you is anti-tank and if this is what your army needs then great, but against infantry they do not add an aweful lot on top of Psybolt Ammo Storm Bolters when it means giving up your Force Weapon.

 

Yeah, but then you've made it your Deathstar. Because the enemy know (just from looking at your list, and how the other two Purifier units are equipped) how you're going to use them, they can then devise counter-strategies. Most notably, sending in an expendable unit for you to kill, then expose yourself to their gunline+counter-assaults.

I don't class a 286 point unit as a Deathstar. Adding the Psybolt Ammo means that it can shooty shooty too so if your opponent thinks that this unit will be racing ahead to assault at the earliest possible opportunity then he may well be mistaken if that is not the best tactical option for them. The fact that you have a unit that is so "scary" should only go in your favour as you take advantage of your opponent's fear.

 

We are talking about a Purifer Army here, ie one that includes 3 large units of them (and unless it's 2k or more there wont be much else beyond a couple of Troops and a HQ). If we want a "perfect" list taking the best bits from the whole Codex with no emphasis on theme then I would definately be agreeing with you and say Palidins or Deah Cult are best to fulfil this role, but we are not. Besides which, 3 units kitted out the same is just dull!

 

There is one point that I must admit that you were right on though.....

 

If you want a pure close-combat unit in a Stormraven, take Death Cult instead. You lose out on power armour, 'Cleansing Flame' and ranged attacks, but you get more S4 power weapon at the same speed as a halberd and WS5 (which is something only Paladins can match).

I faced Grey Knights a couple of times tonight and a unit of just 6 Death Cult Assasins were incredibly effective - charging out of a LR Crusader they chopped through my poor Marines. I had no answer to them, even their lack of Frags was not an issue thanks to their transport! What a steal - even put the Genestealers in my Nid army to shame! :)

[RogueTraderX]

Purifiers have the Cleansing Flame which is partially redundant with an Incinerator. Psycannons give you a greater ranged threat and the ability to harm armor outside of CC. I put my vote toward psycannons.

 

+1

 

The incinerator is very expensive and reduces your anti armour and range. Generally if you find yourself in assault range and you fire the heavy incin a smart opponent will remove front models often leaving you out of charge range especially if the enemy is in cover. It is really wasted on them, theya re already great at anti infantry in both cc and shooting. Its a simple equation 1 hammer 2 psycannons all halbards.

 

Purifiers like most GK aren't oredominantly a close combat unit. Purifiers are better than stike knight but still will foten want to sit back and lay down a torrent of fire. Remember they aren't quick so don't be too hasty to rush into combat where they may find themselves Occasinoally outdown by things such as dread, Meph withches with FnP will still hurt them alot.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

This is how I roll them. 6xPurifiers 2xpsycannons, 3xHalberds and 1xhammer in a Razorback with psybolt ammo. I also keep the Hammer on a regular purifier as they have the same number of attacks as a knight of the flame and I don't want to lose a hammer to perils of the warp.

 

-X

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Psycannons add nothing against Light Infantry - 20 S5 Storm Bolter shots equals 8.9 kills against T3 with 5+ Save (not including cover saves). Add in four Psycannons and if you want to move you get the same outcome as they still only get 2 shots each and wound on a 2+.

 

First of all, you don't care about T3 infantry, you have 'Cleansing Flame'. Even Eldar and DE assault units weep when you double-cast it (because you remembered to combat squad, right?).

Secondly, you never move with Purifiers unless you have to. Move them into psycannon range by all means, but don't move after doing so. Just like Strikers, your best position is in the mid-field, hiding in terrain being 'Shrouded' and 'Sanctified' by a nearby Librarian. It's the curse of only wearing power armour, and thus having no Relentless.

 

Against MEQ they provide about 0.9 more wounds (3.85 vs 2.96), but then take away Force Weapon Attacks from 40% of the unit. What the Psycannons give you is anti-tank and if this is what your army needs then great, but against infantry they do not add an aweful lot on top of Psybolt Ammo Storm Bolters when it means giving up your Force Weapon.

 

Sure, again, if you move. If you stay still, the psycannon makes MeQ's cry into their beer. Even without the handful of Rends that will result from 16 shots, sheer weight of fire will break them (almost every hit is a wound). Psybolts are utterly pathetic next to this firepower. I would only take psybolts if you have no further use for 20pts left in your budget, and it would be unusual (there is always grenades on characters, squad hammers etc).

If you're concerned about giving up force weapon attacks in exchange for more psycannon (which you can never have enough of), Purifiers aren't the unit for you. Paladins and Terminators fit that template much better.

 

I don't class a 286 point unit as a Deathstar. Adding the Psybolt Ammo means that it can shooty shooty too so if your opponent thinks that this unit will be racing ahead to assault at the earliest possible opportunity then he may well be mistaken if that is not the best tactical option for them. The fact that you have a unit that is so "scary" should only go in your favour as you take advantage of your opponent's fear.

 

You don't, but your enemy will instantly identify them as 'hacky unit I do not want eating my dudes', so they might as well be Paladins or Terminator blob. Points aren't really the point :yes: it's the way you're using them.

Psybolt ammo makes you slightly better against most infantry. You kill T3 and T4 hordes faster than normal (but you have 'Cleansing Flame' to do that with anyway), you get more wounds against Marines. Bikers still don't care, Blood Angels may have to make more FNP saves but it doesn't overly affect them. Space Wolves have about 1/3rd more manz anyway (due to GH spam), so it's a bit of a wash really. Against monsters, you go from wounding on 6's to wounding on 5's. Again, their typical 3+ armour (and in some cases FNP on top of that) means it's a bit of a wash again.

Purifiers in a Raven with a character is troublesome, but you're not scaring anyone with it. They're still just Marines, meaning just like Sternguard armies fell apart when everyone realised they die like Tactical Marines (although Sternguard are still better than Devastators in the fire support role), Purifiers do not work as a frontline assault unit.

 

Terminator blob gives people fits, because they can't risk assaulting it (you have 20-odd force weapon attacks at I6, 3-6 hammer attacks, and this is taking a charge and before Librarian buffs), and it takes forever to die to massed fire or massed AP2 ('Shrouding' makes the latter particularly lackluster).

Paladins are more surgical (ie they love to Outflank, Scout, Deepstrike), they can't just be marched up the board, but they're still utterly lethal even as combat squads (fielding them as a single Deathstar is complete overkill).

Death-Cult are the bargain bin assault unit. For the price of Grey Hunters, you get insane combat ability (especially when you factor in grenades, powers from attached Knight characters), and you can swap out Death-Cultists for 3+ invul ablative Crusaders. Only T3, but between the Crusaders and your typical delivery system (Raven or Redeemer), you can get around this problem.

Interceptors are technically just Strikers with jump packs, but they can pick on static shooty squads fairly well, and after popping a transport with their psycannons, they can take on non-melee MeQ and T3 units. They are still squishy like Strikers and Purifiers, but their insane mobility makes up for it somewhat (you can always bail them out of bad firefights/close-combats).

 

We are talking about a Purifer Army here, ie one that includes 3 large units of them (and unless it's 2k or more there wont be much else beyond a couple of Troops and a HQ). If we want a "perfect" list taking the best bits from the whole Codex with no emphasis on theme then I would definately be agreeing with you and say Palidins or Deah Cult are best to fulfil this role, but we are not. Besides which, 3 units kitted out the same is just dull!

 

Maybe. You say 'dull', I say 'redundancy'. By all means man, if you like fielding one Purifier unit that can only do close-combat, then two as fire support/counter-assault, thats fine. Just be aware you may be passing up alternatives. Also, I know realise having read this part of your post, my short story on assault unit alternatives is pretty redundant. :down:

 

I faced Grey Knights a couple of times tonight and a unit of just 6 Death Cult Assasins were incredibly effective - charging out of a LR Crusader they chopped through my poor Marines. I had no answer to them, even their lack of Frags was not an issue thanks to their transport! What a steal - even put the Genestealers in my Nid army to shame!

 

Stealers wish they were as good as Death-Cult. I mean, WS6 is nice, and for only 2pts more than a Cultist, you get to re-roll wounds against T4 or less (toxin sacs, yay!), but actual 5+ armour vs 5+ invul is kinda annoying. Not to mention their mandatory (as in, he makes or breaks the unit) Broodlord upgrade is expensive (meaning a horde is harder to fit in, to make up for the inevitable casualties you suffer at range). Oh, and no assault transport, you have to Outflank and hope to come on the right side.