How do you take your razorbacks?

[northoceanbeach]

How do you layout your razorbacks for those of you that use them,, or theorize them. And for that matter what do you think about razorbacks in general? I love them, I always have, I don't really know why. Partially it's the looks, partly it's what they do and the new much lowered cost(as of the 5th edition release of Space Marines), and partly it's the fact that playing Blood Angels my assult squads that count as troops get a humongous discount.

 

But the discount isn't all there is, I still get the discount on other dedicated transport.

 

I'll be using mine as all purpose, but with emphasis on anti-tank.

 

I'm leaning toward twin-linked lascannons, because that's a really good and rare gun, but other good options are the assault cannon, which costs the same, has some good anti-armour properties, but is better at killing troops and monsters, or really anything high toughness. I know the lascannon/plasmagun combo is really popular, and the twin-linked heavy bolter is good, and VERY cheap, and you can add a storm bolter and have a pretty nice anti-infantry platform.

 

Your thoughts?

 

On a side note, is the five man assault squad worth it? I don't see what they do exactly. I suppose they are OK at a variety of things. I don't really know how to use them yet. So far, I'm giving them a meltagun or plasmagun, and the sergeant a matching pistol, and using them to disembarck and shoot, and equipping the sarg. with a power weapon and trying to have a Priest nearby for assaulting smaller, or weak, or softened up squads. It's this the most effective way to use them? Thanks.

[Brother Nathan]

i use tlflamers as its cheap and means i dont want to go slow and shoot things rather than keeping up with my other assault squads and providing more melta and a few more attacks. also the unit is generally ignored by the opponent as they arnt expected to wreck and ruin. which means they are more likely to survive and be able to get on an objective and claim/contest it and possibly win you the game.

if i was to upgradr the guns i would actually go for las and twin plas as it costs the same as twin las but you loose the reroll on th plass and gain a plas thats twin... assault cannons can be good too but we already have baals for that. tbh i dont ecpect rhino hassies to last long so wouldnt want to put too many points into it...

[SamaNagol]

For utility I like TL Assault Cannon. They will go through hordes and light infantry well and also are statistically more likely to get a pen vs all armour than the TL Lascannon.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Bar the twin las (overcosted), all the razors are pretty good. You have to build your list around them though.

 

The best overall I think is the TL asscannon, for it allows you to move at near full clip and still shoot, can still be useful when immobilised and can shoot both infantry and tanks.

 

As for the squad riding inside the tank, give them a melta and fist/sword and use them to pop tanks and multi-charge enemy infantry. Just make sure you have a priest nearby to make them more killy and survivable.

[JamesI]

My experience with Razors is this:

 

If the squad inside is not something you want too close, such as a small RAS or a Tac squad, got Twin Las or Las Plas.

 

If the squad inisde is something you want close, such as Sternguard or Honor Guard or even a small DC go Twin AC or Twin HF.

[CuddlesHeretics]

I stick a small squad with a plasma gun and heavy bolter in, get them to a hill or buildings. Then run my razorback to my command squad (all the while shooting the hell out of vehicles ( I stick lascannons on it))

[knife&fork]

Bar the twin las (overcosted), all the razors are pretty good. You have to build your list around them though.

 

The TLLC has actually become my favorite. You can just zip around, moving 12" and taking shots at the side armor of transports or walkers without having to stay in the enemies charge or melta range.

 

I agree that you need to take the rest of your list into consideration but the TLAC is pretty universal.

[AbusePuppy]

TLHF is very good for being so aggressive and so cheap (comparatively.) If you are running Assault Squads and looking to- gasp- get into assaults, it's actually a pretty good option, since you can pair it with Melta/Infernus Pistol on the squad and have good duality.

 

LC/TLPlasma is excellent for a shooting-focused BA army; it gets you two good guns on one platform and, unlike its SW, SM, and GK cousins, it can keep mobile while using both guns or speed around while firing one. It is generally superior to the TLLC variant because BS4 means you are already quite accurate (so TL is only a small upgrade) and the extra weapon makes it more resistant to being disable by a single glancing hit- it is also much more threatening at medium and close ranges.

 

The TLAC is often overused, but is a perfectly acceptable gun in the right army. That army looks much like the TLHF army, one that wants to be maneuvering constantly and is probably supported by Baal Predators and likely normal Predators as well. It is good against all sorts of targets, but note that it is worse than the Las/Plas against AV11 targets, which is a very important number. It is also worth noting that BA is the only army where this configuration (as well as the TLHF) is worthwhile due to being Fast.

 

The TLHB simply isn't very useful for the points you're paying for it; we have other ways of eliminating infantry. The TLLC, as noted above, loses out to the LasPlas in the end, although in some very specific circumstances it can be useful. However, these are rare enough that I would generalize it into the same nonviable category as TLHB.

 

 

With regards to the contents, five-strong Assault Squads can be very useful, but you can't think of them as the same as a full-strength squad. They can take down Tau, IG, etc, but don't expect them to tangle with anything major unless you bring multiples- which is what you should be doing. With two, or three, or six of them and a Sanguinary Priest around providing an aura they get downright deadly. If you are running pure shooting, leaving them naked is acceptable; for an aggressive army, Meltagun + Infernus Pistol is the gold standard. (The Pistol is a bit expensive for our tastes, but increasing the reliability of the squad is worth it.) If you're running out-and-out assault focus, a Power Weapon added in is also an option. Never run Power Fists in 5man squads, as the low number of ablative bodies makes it too easy for the enemy to kill the Fist before it gets to swing.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The TLLC has actually become my favorite. You can just zip around, moving 12" and taking shots at the side armor of transports or walkers without having to stay in the enemies charge or melta range.

 

Well, as noted below by Puppy, TLPG/LC razors only lose out some accuracy for added firepower and resilience. So if you're looking to add some las in your army, I'd seriously recommend looking into those.

[knife&fork]

LC/TLPlasma is excellent for a shooting-focused BA army; it gets you two good guns on one platform and, unlike its SW, SM, and GK cousins, it can keep mobile while using both guns or speed around while firing one. It is generally superior to the TLLC variant because BS4 means you are already quite accurate (so TL is only a small upgrade) and the extra weapon makes it more resistant to being disable by a single glancing hit- it is also much more threatening at medium and close ranges.

 

The upgrade in accuracy is actually pretty significant. It goes up from roughly 67% to 89%. Well worth it IMHO if you want mobile, long ranged AT fire in your list.

[Bartali]

TL-HF Razors for me as a vehicle to get ASM into assault.

 

5xASM, Power Weapon, Meltagun, Infernus Pistol, TL-HF Razor is the same price as a plain 5xASM with a Las/Plas Razor.

[SamaNagol]

The LC/TLPG is only better against AV11 if you are stationary and within 12". Which is suicide.

[AbusePuppy]

The LC/TLPG is only better against AV11 if you are stationary and within 12". Which is suicide.

 

It produces more penetrating hits at any given distance (except, I suppose, starting 31"-36" from the target) than the TLAC does, which is what I assume you're referring to. If you're trying to wreck a tank, penetrating hits are what's important. The TLAC is great suppression, but very mediocre at actually killing transports.

 

And, of course, being fast you don't need to be stationary to fire both guns, you can move 6".

[knife&fork]

The LC/TLPG is only better against AV11 if you are stationary and within 12". Which is suicide.

Within 12" it's one of the best transport poppers we have, only surpassed by the rifleman dread, that deserves some merit. Increase the range or AV however, and the effectiveness starts to plummet.

[Morollan]

I have 3 razors in my current list. I have las/plas, AC and HF versions, all of which have their uses. I must confess though that I'm only using the HF version due to points restrictions, although having just built one using spare flamestorm cannons from a land raider, I have to say it's currently my favourite, purely on the basis of looks.

[SamaNagol]

The LC/TLPG is only better against AV11 if you are stationary and within 12". Which is suicide.

 

It produces more penetrating hits at any given distance (except, I suppose, starting 31"-36" from the target) than the TLAC does, which is what I assume you're referring to. If you're trying to wreck a tank, penetrating hits are what's important. The TLAC is great suppression, but very mediocre at actually killing transports.

 

And, of course, being fast you don't need to be stationary to fire both guns, you can move 6".

 

TLPG/LC Vs AV11 at range 12.1"-24" (The average transport AV)

LC (.67 x .67) + PG (.67 x .33) = .449 + .224 = .673pens

 

TLAC..

 

4 x (.67 + (.33x.67)) / 6 = .594pens

 

The difference isn't huge. And for AV12 it gets worse for the TLPG/LC whilst the TLAC stays the same. TLPG/LC is better at dealing with Heavy Infantry up close, but I wouldn't be using a Razorback for that role anyway.

[AbusePuppy]

TLPG/LC Vs AV11 at range 12.1"-24" (The average transport AV)

LC (.67 x .67) + PG (.67 x .33) = .449 + .224 = .673pens

 

TLAC..

 

4 x (.67 + (.33x.67)) / 6 = .594pens

 

The difference isn't huge. And for AV12 it gets worse for the TLPG/LC whilst the TLAC stays the same. TLPG/LC is better at dealing with Heavy Infantry up close, but I wouldn't be using a Razorback for that role anyway.

 

That's comparing only at the ideal range for the TLAC, though- at less than 12" or greater than 24", the LasPlas is significantly superior.

 

(The TLAC is obviously better against AV12, but that's why I specified AV11 when I mentioned it. AV12 generally comes on Eldar, who you can't penetrate anyways, and Guard, who are side AV10 so it's sorta irrelevant.)

 

LasPlas and TLAC are both good setups, they just fit different roles in different armies.