Saving/Cover/Inv Saves

[Xarga]

I've recently decided to get back into Warhammer 40k after not collecting or playing it for around 4-5 years. Some of the rules are fuzzy in my memory and theres one simple question i want to ask which may sound dumb, but i can't remember.

 

If a unit/character has multiple types of saves how many of them is it aloud to take against a single wound?

 

So for the maxium i can think of say a Space Marine Captain is in cover (4+), has a 3+ Sv, a 4+ inv from Iron Halo and attached to a command squad with Apothecary giving him 4+ Feel No Pain save. He takes a single wound from a lasgun, which saves is he aloud to take in succession?

[thade]

One. Your model may take the best save available to it when it's called upon to take a save.

 

So, if your example has a 3+/4++ (two +'s around here signify invulnerable save) and he takes a boltgun wound (AP5) he may use his armor save (3+). If he however takes a plasma wound (AP2) the armor save is no longer available...however, he may take the Invuln save (4++).

 

FNP is a weird beast in that you can take it most times when you are allowed an armor save (and even sometimes when you are not) and you take it if you fail the armor save. For example, if the same captain above failed his 3+ save on that boltgun wound, but he has FNP from an apothecary, he gets an additional 4+ save for the same wound. If it was the plasma shot ,however, he doesn't get FNP for it (due to the FNP USR...which you should go read. :P )

 

So, FNP is a special case where you get more than one save for a wound, but it has special restrictions.

[Xarga]

Okay thanks, that helped alot :P

 

But just one thing does cover work simmilar to FnP or is it like Sv/Inv's where you can only chose the best/appropriate save for the wound?

[thade]

Okay thanks, that helped alot -_-

 

But just one thing does cover work simmilar to FnP or is it like Sv/Inv's where you can only chose the best/appropriate save for the wound?

FNP is unique. Cover works like the others.

 

Consider a Terminator with a 2+ armor save, 5++ invuln save, hiding in Area Terrain (a 4++ cover save).

 

My plasma pistol-wielding vanguard model wants a piece of this guy!!! (Probably because he shot the crap out of his buddies moments before.)

 

So, the Vanguard fires his plasma pistol (AP2), which the terminator's armor save doesn't work against...however he can choose Cover (4++) or the invuln (5++)...so he uses the 4++ (which is better) and makes the saves.

 

Now my vanguard is really mad, and so he charges (he of course has a lightning claw, as is his custom) and he swings and hits and wounds! The lightning claw is a power weapon that ignores his armor. He can't use cover as this is a melee attack (and cover is only good against ranged attacks). But he still has the 5++ invuln, so he can use that. Of course he makes the save and power fists my Vanguard's face off.

 

Yep...

 

Hope that helps!

[Xarga]

Okay thanks alot, yeah that cleared it all up -_-

 

Again cheers for the help!

[thade]

You're welcome. -_- Make sure you commit FNP's restrictions to memory as it comes up a lot these days (Plague Marines and Blood Angels especially) and you'll want to know what allows it and what makes it go away.

 

Short answer: AP1, AP2, power weapons of any kind, and a weapon that inflicts instant death via strength being high enough (2x target toughness) will not allow it.

[Something Wycked]

You're so helpful thade :) -_-

[thade]

You're so helpful thade ;) :(

LOL if only everybody thought so. ;)

[Jacinda]

As a rule of thumb, it is always one "try to get out of something" for each "something bad happened." Some times you are allowed a re-roll and again it is one re-roll per die. So at best you can try to make one test to save a wound and one re-roll of that save. If you have a rule that allows you to re-roll a failed armor save and your opponent has a rule that you have to re-roll and successful armor saves, the die is only ever re-rolled one time.

 

Feel No Pain is actually a save that happens on the death of a model so it is different than an armor/cover save for a wound. There is a lot of overlap there especially considering that the vast majority of models die when they take one wound, but they really are two separate saves. One is a wound save and the other a chance to stand back up after a casualty.

[Something Wycked]

If you have a rule that allows you to re-roll a failed armor save and your opponent has a rule that you have to re-roll and successful armor saves, the die is only ever re-rolled one time.

I believe the BRB FAQ addressed this; if a roll will have both a success and a failure rerolled, a single roll is made and that result stands with no rerolls.

[Jacinda]

I don't know if this is still in the FAQ, but I remember seeing the answer to the old Asteroth vs. Fateweaver debate. The answer was that you roll the dice, then pick up everyone and roll them all again. It was considered more fun that way.

 

Not that it really matters. Roll once and let the rules cancel each other out or always roll twice and take the second result. The percentages are the same either way. And really, this is beside the point. You can only ever get one save per event and one re-roll per die. It's needed to stop these recursive scenarios.

[Something Wycked]

Found it!

Q: If a unit has a special rule that lets it re-roll failed saves and is being affected by an enemy special rule that makes them re-roll successful saves how is this resolved? (p25)

A: Whilst you should technically roll all the dice and then re-roll them, just roll the saves once and apply the results to save time.

But yes, you're right- one save, one reroll, done.

[Reglor]

Feel No Pain is actually a save that happens on the death of a model so it is different than an armor/cover save for a wound. There is a lot of overlap there especially considering that the vast majority of models die when they take one wound, but they really are two separate saves. One is a wound save and the other a chance to stand back up after a casualty.

 

It sounds to me like you are saying that you can only use Feel no Pain on your last wound here. If you are not, sorry. If you are saying that you are wrong. Feel no pain works on any unsaved wound thats not AP1 or 2, instant, MC, or power weapons.

[thade]

Yes, that's true. FNP has nothing to do with "death" or "casualty". If you fail to save a wound and it fits the restrictions in that USR, you get your FNP roll as a second save.

[Brother Valerius]

If you have a rule that allows you to re-roll a failed armor save and your opponent has a rule that you have to re-roll and successful armor saves, the die is only ever re-rolled one time.

I believe the BRB FAQ addressed this; if a roll will have both a success and a failure rerolled, a single roll is made and that result stands with no rerolls.

 

It also suggests that for the sake of expediency, you can just forego rerolls in such cases, and agree that the rules cancel each other out.

[Valerian]

Also, one bit that might be confusing new players, is that many folks in this thread are calling FNP a save, which it is not. It act like a save, but shouldn't be called one, as that leads to confusion. There are, as already pointed out, only three types of Saves: Armour, Invulnerable, and Cover. In all cases, only one Save may be taken to avoid any given wounding hit. Each type of Save (A, I, or C) have different restrictions and applications, so the appropriate Save to use depends on the situation (e.g. low AP weapons can negate an Armour Save, Template weapons can negate a Cover Save, etc.).

 

FNP is not itself a Save, it is simply an ability that uses a d6 roll to determine whether a Wound is actually applied to a model after the appropriate Save has already been failed. It, too, has restrictions, and is not always available, so you have to check the situation again to determine if a model with FNP gets to use the ability. Sometimes the type of wound received (or more accurately, the type of weapon that caused the wounding hit) with negate the FNP special rule.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Ming]

In that regard, FNP is similar to WBB, except WBB is taken essentially at the end of a player turn, and FNP is taken at the end of a unit's shooting.

 

Rumors are 6th Edition will change the FNP and WBB mechanics. So watch for the changes. May make things alot more complicated.

[thade]

6th Edition wishlisting about making FNP far more complicated - which breaks their plan of trying to make the game simpler to get more people to buy models - are a discussion for elsewhere. ;)

 

I definitely concur that FNP is often viewed as a save but it's not...and it's definitely better to not think of it as a Save. It'll make learning the game easier.

[Leonaides]

And to think this was all to help a guy getting back into the rules who had a fairly simple question... Am I allowed a ROFL?

[Something Wycked]

Nope. Texting-like text isn't allowed. How dare you? You're allowed a: ^_^ though.

 

:D

[Leonaides]

Ok, am I allowed a roll-on-floor-laughing? :P

 

(suddenly everyone's a comedian)

[awfulawful]

Ok, am I allowed a roll-on-floor-laughing? :lol:

 

(suddenly everyone's a comedian)

 

Yes, but no re-roll.

[ForgivenFighter]

Ok, I think this would be the place to ask/release my thinking on this.

 

Ok so you got your three saves...now then if I'm understanding right, if the Str of the attacking person is double to the unit taking the blow...it's insta-death. If the weapon has a AP1 or 2 it's not insta-death if you have an invul save. In regards to an assualt situation...some Marine bashes my WL with a PF...now if I just had the BoR or a Shield (left it someone drinking too much the night before), I couldn't use the invul save because his str is higher than that of mine (assuming I only have Str 4 against Str 8). He not only takes the wound, but just bought the land beneath his feet, right? Now then, if I take Saga of the Bear, I gain Eternal warrior so therefore I can take my Invul save with whichever I took...obviously the Shield being the best option with a 3++ if memory serves me right.

 

I really love this RB portion, I'm learning alot and storing tactical info as well as Rules knowledge for when I get home. :o

[Morollan]

Ok, I think this would be the place to ask/release my thinking on this.

 

Ok so you got your three saves...now then if I'm understanding right, if the Str of the attacking person is double to the unit taking the blow...it's insta-death. If the weapon has a AP1 or 2 it's not insta-death if you have an invul save. In regards to an assualt situation...some Marine bashes my WL with a PF...now if I just had the BoR or a Shield (left it someone drinking too much the night before), I couldn't use the invul save because his str is higher than that of mine (assuming I only have Str 4 against Str 8). He not only takes the wound, but just bought the land beneath his feet, right? Now then, if I take Saga of the Bear, I gain Eternal warrior so therefore I can take my Invul save with whichever I took...obviously the Shield being the best option with a 3++ if memory serves me right.

 

I really love this RB portion, I'm learning alot and storing tactical info as well as Rules knowledge for when I get home. ;)

 

The strength of the attack makes no difference to whether you're allowed to take an invulnerable save, or any other type of save (with the exception of FNP). A Power Fist for example will often be double a models Toughness and will therefore inflict Instant Death. It is also a power weapon and therefore no armour saves can be taken. An invulnerable save can still be taken though. If this is failed, it would normally be Instant Death but if you have Eternal Warrior that would not apply.

[thade]

There are rare cases where an armor save can prevent an Instant Death attack (consider a T3 model in power armor being hit by a S6 AP4 assault cannon wound)...and other cases where an attack is not saveable by armor and - after it wounds - can become an Instant Death attack (consider a Force Weapon). Don't confuse I.D. with what saves may be taken. :)

 

What saves can be taken? When deducting whether an armor save can be taken, you need only consider the AP of the attack and whether it allows an armor save or not. For cover, consider whether the model is in cover or not and whether the attack is ranged. An Invuln save can virtually always be taken (unless the attack specifically states invuln saves cannot be taken, which certain Necron melee weapons do).

 

Finally, once you know what saves are available, you may take the best one available; should you fail it for a given wound, you then suffer the consequences of that wound (which may or may not inflict Instant Death for various reasons).