Building a very competitive BA army...

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Battle Brothers,

 

I'm trying to expand my Blood Angels collection and I need your help in order build a very competitive army.

 

Personally I like BA dreads but I'm unsure if it is possible to build a hyper-competive army around them. They are quite powerful but their cost means a very small force deployed on the table.

What do you suggest? I'm open to every possible option from the Codex ;)

 

Thank You for your assistance, Battle Brothers.

[Corby]

I don't believe its possible to build an competitive army entierly made around dreadnoughts as you really struggle to fit enough dreadnoughts ( I presume you're thinking of trying to use every force organisation slot available for dreadnought?) and maintain a sufficently balanced army. Dreadnoughts also have several weaknesses such as lack of mobility ( outside of drop pods , stormravens and librarian dreadnoughts using the wings of sanguinius psyker power.) While its certainly possible to include dreadnoughts in most blood angel armies , building a force around them isn't a competitive idea in my opinion, 3 dreadnoughts would really be the limited in how many you could include in a competitive army and still maintain an effective and competitive force.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I presume you're thinking of trying to use every force organisation slot available for dreadnought

Not exactly. I just mentioned the inclusion of "several" dreads ;). Even I believe this approach does not allow the creation of a competitive army, as you wrote. However I wonder if a couple of Furioso can be used for competitive army.

[Deschenus Maximus]

One Furioso, maybe. Maybe.

 

Get some las/plas razors, Baal preds and riflemen dreads. Put meltas on the ASM in the razors. Include a libby with Shield and at least one Priest.

 

Bob's your uncle.

[Corby]

I presume you're thinking of trying to use every force organisation slot available for dreadnought

Not exactly. I just mentioned the inclusion of "several" dreads ;). Even I believe this approach does not allow the creation of a competitive army, as you wrote. However I wonder if a couple of Furioso can be used for competitive army.

 

 

Team Germany used three furioso dreadnoughts in their blood angel army for the european team championship , two of which were furioso librairans and one of which was a furioso with blood talons in a drop pod. This approach seemed to work in a team enviourment (As team germany won overall) but as to its effectiveness in a standard competitive tournament I don't know as I've never seen it been played.

[SamaNagol]

I'd not really go for a Rifleman over a Predator with AC/LasC

[Glendor]

You are going to get different opinion and also it depends what you do best with. If you like dreadnoughts and they work for you use one or two but probably not more. Than from there you either have to go mech or storm raven which are two completely different builds.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'd not really go for a Rifleman over a Predator with AC/LasC

 

Generally I agree, but here, the Razors will provide ample LR AT, so having riflemen will give the list some accurate suppression fire to shut down enemy Chims and Razors. Plus, the dude said he liked dreads, so makes sense to me :D

[Nemisor]

i think it depends on how you feel most confident playing. i myself am not as confident playing with pure mech so i tend to do better using a mix of DOA & mech.

 

but as far as compeditive units:

 

assault squads with meltas (JP or Razzorbacks or landraider redeemers are good)

 

libby for the hood. i like to put him in TDA and SS and give him the epistolary upgrade. s10 with prefered enemy is always fun

 

furiosos on the back of stormravens is also good. but i would recomend a cheaper squad with it as too many eggs in one flaming wreckage of a basket is never a good thing.

 

at 1500 - 1850 points i would have 2 priests

 

dreadys are......um.... i wouldnt just because every army should have plenty of melta. dready+melta = sad face

[Volcatus]

Three Furioso's can work in an AV13 spam list. Take them in pods, with 2 being Librarian Dreads for turn 1 Blood Lance fun. 3rd would probably be a Blood Talon model. Back them up with 3 Ball Preds and 3 Auto/Las Preds. At 2k, add in 3 RAS squads with Las/Plas Razors and a Librarian and you have yourself a nice AV13 wall with some solid shooting options.

 

Above 2k add in more Razors and more upgrades for the RAS.

[SamaNagol]

I really feel like Baals don't do enough for their points. Especially the rolling Assault Cannons. They still have terrible side and rear armour and are hamstrung by a weapon destroyed. Predators I can understand with the AutoLas load out. Vindicators I like due to their versatility. Baals I am not sold on. Scouting Flamestorms are a gimmick more than anything. 2 Melta Bikes are going to do more I feel in the FA slot.

 

I'm still trying out a bunch of stuff for 1750. It's an awkward points cost to get used to.

[Corby]

I really feel like Baals don't do enough for their points. Especially the rolling Assault Cannons. They still have terrible side and rear armour and are hamstrung by a weapon destroyed. Predators I can understand with the AutoLas load out. Vindicators I like due to their versatility. Baals I am not sold on. Scouting Flamestorms are a gimmick more than anything. 2 Melta Bikes are going to do more I feel in the FA slot.

 

I'm still trying out a bunch of stuff for 1750. It's an awkward points cost to get used to.

 

You say you dislike the baal predator for terrible side armour and rear armour and that they're hamstrung by a weapon destroyed result , yet you say you like vindicators which have all the same problems? A single Baal Predator with heavy bolter sponsons is a good investment if you need something to put out volume of fire. Against dark eldar skimmers and skimmer squadrons , the high volume of moderate strength shots the Baal can put out can really hurt them. It can also put a large number of wounds on infantry if you need it to.

 

 

OT: 3 Dreadnoughts looks to be the most you can fit in and still maintain a strong army , A single rifleman ( for good suppresion) and a furioso librarian or two for some assault punch and generating cover saves for your army might be an idea.

 

@ Volcatus The problem with running an Av 13 wall is you've so many tanks you start to have them block each others line of sight ( Of course you can spread out to avoid this , but your opponent can pick off the vehicles which trouble him the most and you leave your own vehicles vunerable to stuff like outflankers , wolf scouts and deepstriking melta) . Its also a hassle when the lead tanks of the wall become immobilised or stunned , making it a pain for the other tanks to move around.

[SamaNagol]

I stated why I like the Vindicator.

 

I am yet to see a Baal with sponsons on it at a tournament, although your point vs Venom spam is valid.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The Baal is probably a little overcosted. If you have free HS slots, a dakka pred is probably a better buy for the points. That being said, most times your HS will be taken by autolas preds or riflemen. While the fast melta of speeders and bikes is tempting, BA already have a lot of fast melta thanks to their assault squads. Thus, sacrificing a slot or two for a Baal is not a terrible idea. I'm not sure 3 Baals is necessary unless you are playing against say Orks or Nids.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Even though I mentioned a dreads based army in my original post I open to any option coming from the BA codex. I find SM armies very fun to play so I can adapt to every possible style/tactic.

The only limit is competitivity. I don't have many free time to dedicate to warhammer 40k games and when I play I'd like to field a competitive army. Since I cannot currently play a lot of games I have to focus of the quality of the list I play :mellow:

[Deschenus Maximus]

How about this:

 

Librarian - Shield of Sang, some other power - 100

 

Sang Priest - BP/CCW - 50

 

5 ASM - PF, MG - 135

Razor - Las/Plas - 55

5 ASM - PF, MG - 135

Razor - Las/Plas - 55

10 Tacticals - Combi-melta, fist, melta, missile - 210

Razor - Las/Plas - 90

10 Tacticals - Combi-melta, fist, melta, missile - 210

Razor - Las/Plas - 90

 

Baal Pred - TLAC, HB sponsons - 145

3 Speeders - MM, HF - 210

3 Speeders - MM, HF - 210

 

Dreadnought - 2 x TLAC - 120

Dreadnought - 2 x TLAC - 120

Dreadnought - 2 x TLAC - 120

 

Dreadnoughts? Check

Backfield scoring? Check

Mobile scoring? Check

Long range AT? Check

Long range AP? Check

Supression fire? Check

Fast melta? Check

Assault capability? Not fantastic, but able to handle anything outside of deathstars.

 

Oh and you have 45 pts spare to add other upgrades here and there.

[Glendor]

If you like tac squads that looks like an excellent list.

[SamaNagol]

You're spending 600pts on Tacticals when you could get 4 5 man ASM with Meltaguns in TL Lascannon Razorbacks for that. Which would be superior.

[Deschenus Maximus]

4 squads with meltas and TLLC razors is 660 pts, not 600. That's one whole MM speeder.

 

In addition, once you pop their razor/pop the turret, the assault squads in the back are going to sit around doing nothing for the rest of the game. The two half-squads in the back may not be contributing a lot with their 2 missiles, but at least they will keep shooting until they are all dead.

[AbusePuppy]

In addition, once you pop their razor/pop the turret, the assault squads in the back are going to sit around doing nothing for the rest of the game.

 

This is exactly why you take Las/TLPlas instead of TLLas.

[Deschenus Maximus]

In addition, once you pop their razor/pop the turret, the assault squads in the back are going to sit around doing nothing for the rest of the game.

 

This is exactly why you take Las/TLPlas instead of TLLas.

 

I agree, but even then, say I pop the lascannon, there's a fair chance you're going to have to move up to be in range of the plas. So the ASM are probably going to have to disembark to stay on the objective (ergo not contributing to the game at all), or come along with the Razor and leave the objective in hope to make a flat out move back to it during T5, which leaves it vulnerable to me popping the tank/immob/stun it out of range during my turn.

[SamaNagol]

You are going to be using entirely different weaponry to shoot at a Razorback than you would at a unit of 5 marines at the back. I'd go as far as to say that those Razorbacks would most likely not be targeted at all past the long list of AV13 targets which are a bigger threat. Whereas those Marines are much more susceptible to mundane massed S4 and S3 weaponry.

 

4 x 5 ASM w MG in +35pt turret RBs is still going to put out more damage than 2 Tacs with MG and ML in 2 RBs with LasPlas and a MM Speeder.

[Deschenus Maximus]

You are going to be using entirely different weaponry to shoot at a Razorback than you would at a unit of 5 marines at the back. I'd go as far as to say that those Razorbacks would most likely not be targeted at all past the long list of AV13 targets which are a bigger threat.

 

Actualy, plasmabacks are very near the top of the list in target priority as they are easier to supress/destroy than say a Pred, yet still carry a considerable armament.

 

Whereas those Marines are much more susceptible to mundane massed S4 and S3 weaponry.

 

Bringing small arms to bear against backfield targets isn't as easy as you seem to imply. 24 inches range seems like a lot, but really, it's not. Even when in range, 10 bolters will only drop on average 1 marine per shooting phase when firing from 12+ inches.

 

4 x 5 ASM w MG in +35pt turret RBs is still going to put out more damage than 2 Tacs with MG and ML in 2 RBs with LasPlas and a MM Speeder.

 

I'm curious as to how you figure that.

 

ASM config:

2 melta weapons (the backfield ones are obviously not going to be brought to bear unless something went wrong, so they don't count)

4 las

4 tl PG (2 of which are probably going to be out of range)

 

Tacs + speeder:

5 meltas weapons

2 las

2 missiles

2 TLPG

[SamaNagol]

Ah yes, the combi-meltas. You have a point there. I over-looked those.

[Black Memories]

I'm not a huge fan of running combat squaded tacticals unless I'm running a more hybridized list to begin with (more attack bikes, jump troops, devs, something). In a more hybrid list i feel like they're very worth the points and almost impossible to remove from the game. When I run tactical marines, this is always how I field them. That said unless you're going to have a reasonable "sit around and shoot" element to your list, I feel like their lack of mobility is way out of place in a lot of my lists.

 

They're good, I just dont like them for full mech lists. Also the issue I have with one of the list types above is you said it would handle everything but deathstars, i'd say it would handle IG and Tau and that's about it. Every other army has a non-deathstar unit that would rip the heads off those 5 man ASM squads without batting an eye. That list plain sucks in combat. Lots of guns and stuff, but no combat ability. Not even Mephiston as a counter-assault unit. Now if your main opponent is IG or something, I think it'd do well. Something where the lack of combat units won't hurt. It's bizarre because lists like this one don't seem like they work as well around here. A Lack of assault element will get you beat in the local meta where I play, always interesting to see how different things are elsewhere.