Aspiring Champion in CSM Squads

[cernunnos]

I am thinking about running some CSM squads and the two squads I have planned out so far are as follows:

 

10CSM, mark of Khorne, 2 flamers, rhino

10CSM, mark of Khorne, 2 plasma guns, rhino

 

They are primarily there to get close and shoot at infantry, but with the CCW+BP and mark of khorne they can deal damage in CC too, where they will probably end up getting that close.

With the lack of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics it would seem they need to be stronger in CC than a loyalist tactical squad, but hopefully the BP+CCW and mark of Khorne provides this.

 

The decision I am having difficulty with is the Aspiring Champion. Firstly how important is Ld 10? Also is a powerfist necessary? It is clear that I need to win combats or at least not lose by much. Is the BP+CCW and mark of Khorne enough or are the extra powerfist wounds needed (especially against MEQ)? An Aspiring Champion with a powerfist adds 40pts to the squad, turning what looks a reasonably priced squad into a rather expensive one so if I can get away without one I would favour that.

 

It is worth mentioning that these are not meant to be a specialist CC squad and will not be targeted against such enemies. They are for picking on infantry with little to modest CC ability. Obviously there may be some situations where they end up against such powerful CC units, but I am not intending to use them as an elite CC unit.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You need both the leadership and the fist. Statistically, your squad will kill more of most enemies with a fist champ without mok than with mok and no champ. It also lets you threaten higher toughness creatures, characters, and walkers. You need the LD10 because when you have neither fearless nor a re-roll from Glory you need every point you can get.

 

Really though, the best way to run CSM squads is either with just 10 guys and 2 plasmas, or with a fist champ, icon of chaos glory, and 2x melta or 2x flamer.

[Menkeroth]

Agree. Champion is worth his points, in any variants. As to me i prefer to run squads with flamers and meltas and champions with plasma-pistol and powerfist - it makes them capable of fighting with any enemy as it was already mentioned.

[Possessed Marine]

Absolutely buy a champion with powerfist. You never know, your opponent may drop pod a dread next to them for an easy kill point, and a normal CCW has no chance of harming said dreadnaught, and the krak grenades don't do it reliably enough. And as mentioned, they don't have fearless or a re-roll from IoCG so LD10 will help them from running so easily

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I used to balk at the Asp Champ when I was playing the points game, but inevitably I would run into something that krak grenades couldn't kill in CC and lose whole squads. I don't balk anymore.

[darth_giles]

They're not a bad choice, but they can still be situational, particularly if the squad is likely to get wiped out before Initiative 0 or whenever PFs strike now. The only time they've been an outright bad choice was in the days of 3.0 before the New Assault Rules, when you could specifically direct all of a squad's attacks at the power fist user and kill him before he could attack. Thus complaints about "stealth power fists" in Black Templars' assault squads and the BA Death Company; because you couldn't have everybody dogpile the guy with the power fist.

 

I've always favored a 50/50 mi x; half my ACs have a power weapon and meltabombs, half of them have power fists. Of course, that also depends on having enough tankbusting power elsewhere to not need to be assaulting each and every vehicle.

[Brother Ambroz]

I think they're always a good idea, except for possibly in small 2 spec weapon PM squads. They always seem to deter assaults from lone ICs, MCs or walkers. Overall it's better to have them than not. They're extremely useful in CC.

[KingDeath]

More important than a powerfist is a combimelter.

The Khorne standard is bad because 30 points for 10 aditional attacks ( yay! 18 points Chaosmarines which still get wiped whenever they lose in cc...) is overpriced.

If you realy want an icon then take the chaos glory one, it's not atsnkf, but it's cheap and that means it is ok for larger squads.

Ah well, at least it isn't the standard of Nurgle.

While many people seem to favour the champion with powerfist i have my doubts about him. Ask yourself, what do you want to do with that squad?

CC? For just 3 points more per marine you get the superior Khorne Berserkers.

Do you wish to use them for tankhunting/ shooting stuff? Well, for what do you need the expensive champion with pf then? He won't help you much against cc specialists which happen to get near and even against dread's he has, at best, only a rather small chance to actualy cause damage.

 

So, tldr, keep your Chaosmarine squads cheap, avoid anything that makes them expensive because no matter what you do, they will die in combat.

If you take a champion then don't forget the combiweapon ( i would advice the melter ). A powerfist can be useful in some situations but if you don't need it then you have wasted quite a few points on it.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes if you're going to use regular CSM go with ICG. And if you're going to use regular CSM you want a fisting champion. Zerkers are by far better for close combat yes. CSM though are a better multipurpose unit. Combimeltas aren't the most important, you get one shot, ONE single shot out of it compared to 3-4 with powerfist. Sure they're nice but not amazing. Regular CSM are nice because 1. they get 2 CCW which normal troops usually don't get. 2. they're somewhat cheap for marines. 3. they can take 2 specials, almost always meltas.

[the jeske]

While many people seem to favour the champion with powerfist i have my doubts about him. Ask yourself, what do you want to do with that squad?

because when you charge with a power weapon people will stack all the power weapon wounds on one dude ,while they cant do that with the fist armed asp champion . the fist champ kills more ,that is even without counting multi wound models , ID , easier wounding of +4T models etc .

[techmarine Azuris]

I rarely use it against Dreads or MC but the amount of times i instagibbed a Rune Priest that annoyin lord/captain, so yh defo take it should be the first updgrade u buy tbh :P

[Kristoff]

because when you charge with a power weapon people will stack all the power weapon wounds on one dude ,while they cant do that with the fist armed asp champion . the fist champ kills more ,that is even without counting multi wound models , ID , easier wounding of +4T models etc .

 

That actually makes zero sense Jeske. AC's are just as targetable whether they have PW, PF, or just a CCW, and the wounds they create are just as stackable.

 

A PW is great for those times where you need that speed with armor penetration as much (if not more) than raw damaging power. Like facing other Marines, or IG with Power Fists. True, it doesn't do jack schmidt vs Eldar or 'Nids because their Initiative is higher, or when a Marine IS faster, they are usually big gribblies and you REALLY want that PF's damage at that point. PF is superior to every Close Combat weapon in the Chaos Marine armory, save for the Chainfist, 90% of the time, but there are some times a PW will be more desirable.

[techmarine Azuris]

It does make sense he's not talkin bout the AC targetability, but distribution of the wounds he causes :) fists any day tbh, dont see why u wouldnt take them tbh :)

[Menkeroth]

Yes, for close combat if not berzerkers than the power weapon is preferable. Fist is preferable for multi-purposness, yes, but it also dependent on the enemy. When you see Eldar with farseers it's 90% than your champion, iconbearers and specials won't help you. And vice verse, for example, against Tau. And so on.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes, for close combat if not berzerkers than the power weapon is preferable.

 

 

Huh?? Sorry but I don't understand. How is str 4 I4 power weapon better than a fist? Hide behind the squad, strike back at the end with double their str to ID multi-wound models or damage those big guys? If anything zerkers are sometimes better than CSM with a power weapon with their furious charge. Sorry it might be that I misread that but otherwise it doesn't make sense.

[darth_giles]

Huh?? Sorry but I don't understand. How is str 4 I4 power weapon better than a fist? Hide behind the squad, strike back at the end with double their str to ID multi-wound models or damage those big guys? If anything zerkers are sometimes better than CSM with a power weapon with their furious charge. Sorry it might be that I misread that but otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Same reason why I take a mix of PWs and PFs; if you're in a situation where the squad could get wiped out between I4 and I0, the PW is the better choice. You also get one more attack with the PW than the PF. That's any close combat against the Sisters, Crons, Guard, some of the Eldar and Dark Eldar stuff, Sanguinary Guard, Assault/Chaos Terminators, et cetera ad nauseum.

 

In simple terms: a Terminator Squad and a Chaos Terminator Squad end up in close combat together. The Imperial termies have only one PW and the rest PFs, while the Chaos termies have all PWs. The only figure in the Imperial squad likely to get to attack is the sergeant, because the rest could get slaughtered by the faster-moving Chaosites.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes in theory you would get more attacks. Then again you have 3 pw attacks, 50% chance to hit with WS4, then you have a 50% chance to wound against MEQ anyway that leaves you with 1-2 possible hits usually. Fists have about the same ratio but also with the added bonuses of ID etc. I usually try to stay away from the cc specialist units with average CSM squads. Really it's just preference I suppose.

[Kristoff]

Yes in theory you would get more attacks. Then again you have 3 pw attacks, 50% chance to hit with WS4, then you have a 50% chance to wound against MEQ anyway that leaves you with 1-2 possible hits usually. Fists have about the same ratio but also with the added bonuses of ID etc. I usually try to stay away from the cc specialist units with average CSM squads. Really it's just preference I suppose.

 

A PW wound is as much ID on a 1 wound model as much as a PF one. Against Characters , Crisis Suits, and 'Nid Warriors, that's obviously a different story, but one of the examples given was PW squad vs PF squad, and that is a situation where it will make a difference.

[the jeske]

or bikes or anything with more then t4 against tanks and transports . Fist squads always out perform pw ones .

[Excessus]

PF any day...it's all about the wound allocations!

[darth_giles]

or bikes or anything with more then t4 against tanks and transports . Fist squads always out perform pw ones .

Never had bikes wipe out a squad at I4 before the PF could get its attacks, or someone gimmick the wound allocation to force the PF guy to make more saves than the rest? Seriously, you mathhammer guys need to stop assuming that the PF is going to live every time.

[Menkeroth]

It's not surprising, Jeske don't know it from his experience :P he had never seen the charge of the Howling Banshees and how they wiped out the whole squad and my AC with PF couldn't do anything. Or the Farseer with Mind War who defeated my AC with it (and the Iconbearer too). Against Tau PF is also less preferable than PW. And so on.

Never had bikes wipe out a squad at I4 before the PF could get its attacks, or someone gimmick the wound allocation to force the PF guy to make more saves than the rest?

Him? No, never ;)

[Excessus]

It's not surprising, Jeske don't know it from his experience :cuss he had never seen the charge of the Howling Banshees and how they wiped out the whole squad and my AC with PF couldn't do anything. Or the Farseer with Mind War who defeated my AC with it (and the Iconbearer too).

I don't see how those situations would make powerfists less desirable than a power weapon. Banshees have at least I5 and would wipe out your squad no matter what equipment they were carrying. Same with mind war, power weapons doesn't give any kind of immunity from it...

 

On the other hand, the squad with a fist would have a chance to instakill a character, actually have a chance of taking down a MC or vehicle, and due to wound allocation rules would kill more people. The fists in my squads kill characters/vehicles/MCs regularly, I wouldn't dream of going without them!

[the jeske]

he had never seen the charge of the Howling Banshees and how they wiped out the whole squad and my AC with PF couldn't do anything. Or the Farseer with Mind War who defeated my AC with it (and the Iconbearer too). Against Tau PF is also less preferable than PW. And so on.

aha and how does an i4 power weapon help against banshees. If they managed to kill 10 meq on charge [probably with doom on the squad] then it doesnt matter .

Against Tau fire warriors it doesnt matter , but against suits it does . what does mind war or snipers have to do with PW/PF , the asp gets killed no matter what he is wielding.

 

Never had bikes wipe out a squad at I4 before the PF could get its attacks, or someone gimmick the wound allocation to force the PF guy to make more saves than the rest?

are you seriously trying to argue that a power weapon armed asp champion has the same damage ratio against bikers/pms or multi wound models as a fist armed one ? You also missed how the wound allocation works [even if techmarine explained it to you already] . If you charge with [lets make it lucky] with 10 csm and an asp champion you will have what ~30A more if you took the icon of khorn and this is where the problems start . why ? because if you get 9 normal wounds and 2 power weapon ones [which with 9x4 A on charge from normal guys can happen] , the power weapon ones will hit the same guy [unless your opponent doesnt know how wound allocation works] . this means power weapons attacks get wasted more the more you hit and the more you wound . nothing like that with fists , because your opponent first has to roll and save the normal attacks and then you roll all the i1 attacks .

 

and as far as singling out PF asp champion goes in hth. if you charge or get charged by unit that regulary do more then 10 wounds on the whole squad [to be almost always sure the asp champion dies the unit would have to be forced to make ~30 saves] well then maybe your shouldnt charge that unit [or let it charge you] .And if you cant well then your screwed no matter if you take an asp champion or not and what arment he has or has not.

[Brother Ambroz]

This debate can go back and forth forever. Lets call it personal preference and leave it at that?