Aspiring Champion in CSM Squads

[Menkeroth]

This debate can go back and forth forever. Lets call it personal preference and leave it at that?

Agreed. But some users don't want to agree that pf ain't more better than the usual PW. It always depends on the situation.

I don't see how those situations would make powerfists less desirable than a power weapon. Banshees have at least I5 and would wipe out your squad no matter what equipment they were carrying. Same with mind war, power weapons doesn't give any kind of immunity from it...

My CSM were with the IoS so they could resist. When i tried to change it my squad with AC with PW did withstand their charge and my AC managed to kill some Banshees. But you're right, it only shows different situations as many factors influence the battle. CSM with IoS and PW were good but i prefer generally IoT and PF for multi-purpossness.

[cernunnos]

Thanks for the advice so far, they have helped me think through the options and I have a few comments.

 

Walkers & Monstrous Creatures

 

I feel that walkers or MC’s aren’t overly vulnerable to powerfists. The chance of hitting, getting through armour and then getting a destroyed result is fairly slim and you really need to destroy them outright because they will cause a lot of damage quickly, and stop the unit performing its primary role. MC’s, meanwhile, need to be seriously injured already to avoid massive damage to the squad. The increased attack from the MoK will help a bit I guess but is it enough? That said how likely is irrelevant if opponents believe it’s a threat and don’t send their walkers and MC’s into the squad. Definitely worth some thought.

 

ID and deterring assaults from IC’s

 

Lone characters, or those in small squads should fear a powerfist (unless they are eternal warrior) and I really don’t want these guys charging my CSM squads. This is definitely the most compelling argument for the powerfist yet for me.

 

Melta

 

The combi-melta is an interesting one. Rather counter to generally accepted wisdom I am not a huge fan of melta in large quantities. If used against transports it is mostly doomed to failure. It will of course kill the transport, but if the transport has got into melta range it has generally done its job, hence the failure. Where it shines of course is at taking out heavier armour, but there are cheaper and better ways to bring dual melta (or more) than CSM squads. Also if I send a CSM squad hunting heavy armour that is a waste of a lot of boltguns and quite a points cost.

 

All of that said, there are times when a rhino is put in the way, or the unit is threatened by a walker or any other time you are glad to have some. I am reluctant to water down the anti-infantry firepower by dropping the plasma/flamer but combi-meltas are interesting. I don’t think I would go for 1, too unreliable, but the ability to take one on the rhino too makes this a viable one off contingency option. 25pts (assuming no fist) is a lot to pay for a combi-melta though (I have no problem with the Rhino cost) so I think I would need to be convinced the Ld 10 was worth some points investment too.

 

Fist Champ & IoCG

 

There have been suggestions that the powerfist should be taken on a IoCG squad rather than the IoK and no fist. The problem is that combo costs 50pts, 20 pts more than the IoK. Granted the former has better leadership which is an extra bonus, but the extra attacks would surely outperform the fist against light infantry. Against MEQ I would assume the fist would shade it. In a codex where the points costs are pretty high already I think the 20pt difference is worth giving some thought.

 

Close Combat Squad

 

I should reiterate the point I made in the opening post. I am not trying to optimize this unit for CC. I am trying to give it enough CC ability to make up for the lack of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics to allow it to perform its close firefight role effectively in the face of the vulnerability it has when assaulted. The aim is to win or only narrowly lose against its primary units, which are light infantry and shooty MEQ.

[Excessus]

My CSM were with the IoS so they could resist. When i tried to change it my squad with AC with PW did withstand their charge and my AC managed to kill some Banshees. But you're right, it only shows different situations as many factors influence the battle. CSM with IoS and PW were good but i prefer generally IoT and PF for multi-purpossness.

I thought that when Howling Banshees charge they have I10...

[the jeske]

they always strike first . they are i5 if you charge them . doesnt matter.

 

In the end it looks like this . there are too many ultra grit or ccw/pistol squads out there to win hth without fist .

also we have to remember that it takes 3 dead dudes to force a Ld test . I know csm are not ld 7 , but still if they run from shoting the army realy does fall apart . IoCG is there because people who played chaos since the dex came out , found out that they actualy do run offten[it was also one of the reasons why so many ended playing a pm/zerker mix] .

[darth_giles]

are you seriously trying to argue that a power weapon armed asp champion has the same damage ratio against bikers/pms or multi wound models as a fist armed one ? You also missed how the wound allocation works [even if techmarine explained it to you already] . If you charge with [lets make it lucky] with 10 csm and an asp champion you will have what ~30A more if you took the icon of khorn and this is where the problems start . why ? because if you get 9 normal wounds and 2 power weapon ones [which with 9x4 A on charge from normal guys can happen] , the power weapon ones will hit the same guy [unless your opponent doesnt know how wound allocation works] . this means power weapons attacks get wasted more the more you hit and the more you wound . nothing like that with fists , because your opponent first has to roll and save the normal attacks and then you roll all the i1 attacks.

You're assuming the PF lives to attack. I'm not arguing mathhammer here, I'm arguing that the bloody thing is worthless if you get wiped out before it attacked, and against I4 to I2 opponents capable of doing that, then you might as well take the PW because it'll at least be able to have a shot at SOME damage.

 

and as far as singling out PF asp champion goes in hth. if you charge or get charged by unit that regulary do more then 10 wounds on the whole squad [to be almost always sure the asp champion dies the unit would have to be forced to make ~30 saves] well then maybe your shouldnt charge that unit [or let it charge you] .And if you cant well then your screwed no matter if you take an asp champion or not and what arment he has or has not.

Let me guess, Murphy's Law doesn't apply in Russia?

[Menkeroth]

My CSM were with the IoS so they could resist. When i tried to change it my squad with AC with PW did withstand their charge and my AC managed to kill some Banshees. But you're right, it only shows different situations as many factors influence the battle. CSM with IoS and PW were good but i prefer generally IoT and PF for multi-purpossness.

I thought that when Howling Banshees charge they have I10...

Yes. But in that case my warriors survived their attack and answered. And also i have a case when they (still with IoS) charged the Banshees and my AC with PW killed some of them. And he wouldn't if had a PF.

 

darth_giles

Applies but jeske knows some about the game only from the forums. He thinks Banshees always strike first but he's wrong - without assault grenades they have an Initiative 1 when charging into cover. And so on.

[techmarine Azuris]

Ive never seen the fist die, unless the squad was whiped and tbh PW strikes last quite alot...

[Brother Ambroz]

Ive never seen the fist die

 

 

Same here, I've never seen one of my fists die without striking back at least once. Most of those really cc oriented squads should be shot to death anyway.

[Kristoff]

One other advantage to the PW is you save points by taking it over the PF.

 

Again, this is a "Personal Preference/Your Mileage May Vary" advantage, nevertheless, just like the Initiative advantage it DOES exist, even if it's not the most uber to Mathhammer fanatics.

[Brother Nihm]

This debate can go back and forth forever. Lets call it personal preference and leave it at that?

Partly this, but you guys seem to forget one important factor: threat.

 

The two weapons are very different and they are both situational weapons.

 

However,

the reason that the fist wins out most often (in that it gets taken more often) is due to fact that it can hurt ANYTHING, whereas the power weapon cannot.

This is huge.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[techmarine Azuris]

Yeah it is why it gets taken more. Let me give u an example; I had to whipe my oponent to win the school tourney to get max points, this is turn 3 and e's down to a dread and 2 combat squads, (fairly easy job tbh, him not being the most expperienced play and having been drawn against my two mates, who are both my standard, where i managed to pull 1 win one draw), to put a huge spanner in my works as he knows ill struggle to take his dread down in combat he charges into a squad of CSM...I role for the krak granades, causing two weapon destroyed...fist swings, and immobolises it rendering it wrecked and useless, had i not had fist he would maybe have survived with the dread till turn 5/6. So yes always fist, Ive also found it useful if u gotta take down that LR or rhino... ;) My two cents so yh, and yes i was playing CSM in the tourney :P

[the jeske]

Let me guess, Murphy's Law doesn't apply in Russia?

yeah this means the most deadly unit of the all are grots because they can potentialy force 2 tests on every dude. same with IG . blob of 30 and you dont even have to shot , potential 60A on charge has chance to kill everything right ?

We are not talking here about miricle but about stuff you can expect . can 3 melta guns do anti tank job in an army? sure . I mean technicly its 3-4 turns x3 so 12 destroyed transports/tanks . But we know that will happen almost never .

 

You're assuming the PF lives to attack. I'm not arguing mathhammer here, I'm arguing that the bloody thing is worthless if you get wiped out before it attacked, and against I4 to I2 opponents capable of doing that, then you might as well take the PW because it'll at least be able to have a shot at SOME damage.

dude so your talking about tailoring here . If you know you have an opponent that drops 20wounds or more on a meq squad why do you even try to take csm and go hth with them ? Then you take PMs to rob them of the extra A and give them +5 wounding and FnP/+3sv to go through . Some dmg doesnt help if someone is wiping out your squads in a single turn[and you dont have ATKNF so will get chased down and die ] . We are also talking in a void here , becaues we have to rise the question how did the unit get in to hth in the first place . where were the 2xDP etc etc

 

 

 

 

Same here, I've never seen one of my fists die without striking back at least once. Most of those really cc oriented squads should be shot to death anyway.

exactly and even if it doesnt then squads have the dmg out put to regularly kill the fist guy either wipe the unit as a whole[5 termis 3xTH/SS 2xLC +HQ for example] or if they dont we are looking at 2-3 surivivors which will take the test at -7 break and either run [no ATKNF] or get runed down.

 

 

He thinks Banshees always strike first but he's wrong - without assault grenades they have an Initiative 1 when charging into cover. And so on.

take the codex and read it again then.

[Excessus]

My CSM were with the IoS so they could resist. When i tried to change it my squad with AC with PW did withstand their charge and my AC managed to kill some Banshees. But you're right, it only shows different situations as many factors influence the battle. CSM with IoS and PW were good but i prefer generally IoT and PF for multi-purpossness.

I thought that when Howling Banshees charge they have I10...

Yes. But in that case my warriors survived their attack and answered. And also i have a case when they (still with IoS) charged the Banshees and my AC with PW killed some of them. And he wouldn't if had a PF.

 

darth_giles

Applies but jeske knows some about the game only from the forums. He thinks Banshees always strike first but he's wrong - without assault grenades they have an Initiative 1 when charging into cover. And so on.

 

So...in the first example the fact that you had a power weapon didn't matter AT ALL, well, it might have meant you got less wounds on them than you would have...

 

In the second example, even if you had charged with a powerfist, statistically the banshees wouldn't have been able to wipe out the squad anyway since a unit of ten is doing around five kills in a round...(S3, wohoo!)

 

Thus, in both of your examples it wouldn't have mattered AT ALL if you had a fist, but since you had been wounding on a 2+ instead of a 3+ and the fact that your opponent cant sneak away wounds with wound allocation you probably would have had done more wounds with a fist...

[techmarine Azuris]

In the second example, even if you had charged with a powerfist, statistically the banshees wouldn't have been able to wipe out the squad anyway since a unit of ten is doing around five kills in a round...(S3, wohoo!)

 

Doom? or whatever reroll ability is called ;) and tbh the killer is rlly fist can wound ANYTHING

[Panda_]

This debate can go back and forth forever. Lets call it personal preference and leave it at that?

Yes that should belong to a "Does our CSM should have PF?" thread.

 

Back on topic : In my mind, there is no point to get a Aspiring champ if you don't buy PF or a combiweapon.

 

Useful :

- For every close combat squad

- For combi weapons

- For MSU, which should then bring combi weapons

 

Unuseful :

- For a ranged unit : double Plasma or antiskimmer (Plasma/AC). A Undivided icon is more efficient on Leadership.

[Excessus]

Doom? or whatever reroll ability is called :P and tbh the killer is rlly fist can wound ANYTHING

With doom it might get to seven, but still not enough to stop the AC from making his attacks...

[techmarine Azuris]

remember you might have lost a couple from shooting too? ;) and lucky rolls so yh :P

[Excessus]

remember you might have lost a couple from shooting too? ;) and lucky rolls so yh :P

...as might the banshees have ;)

 

And luck comes in two varieties ;)

[techmarine Azuris]

yh it does lol, sadly against me :P I just dont think 15 points is justified for a PW ;)

[Excessus]

oh neither do I(and in reality it's 30 points, because the AC is useless without a weapon), none of my CSM squads are without fists. Waaaaay too useful to be without!

[techmarine Azuris]

Yh in all fairness 30 points is Ld 10 too, but yh for 10 points more double strength and u strike last with PW or PF anyway :D

[Prot]

For myself the answer has been simple, unless I'm playing Berzerkers (in which their role will be highly specialized) I always take a fist in any offensive squad.

 

No it isn't 100% the best choice every time, BUT the odd game where a unit gets tied up and can do nothing about it..... those hurt. Often they hurt enough to be game changers.

 

The odd time I am now considering throwing combi melta's on the Asp. Champs with Fists. Unfortunately we pay twice the price Wolves do but from playing Wolves I can tell you the cumulatlive effect of doing this can be very powerful. Now add in your two meltas in the squad, and the fact a fist cannot benefit from a pistol for an extra attack, and as long as you have the points, it isn't -that- bad for being a 4th ed codex.

 

I have a few squads I don't want to go to ten men with, but an undersize squad can still be a roaming threat shooting from a Rhino (even if once per game....at the right time) with a Combi weapon.

 

Again it's pretty personal but I always look back on those games where I've been stuck on a crappy IG sentinel for way too long... or a dread, or whatever... like I said it can be a game killer.

[Urauloth]

Why would you want squad below 10-strong? You're doing yourself out of a special weapon, surely

[darth_giles]

The odd time I am now considering throwing combi melta's on the Asp. Champs with Fists. Unfortunately we pay twice the price Wolves do but from playing Wolves I can tell you the cumulatlive effect of doing this can be very powerful. Now add in your two meltas in the squad, and the fact a fist cannot benefit from a pistol for an extra attack, and as long as you have the points, it isn't -that- bad for being a 4th ed codex.

I think our codex predates the Wolves codex by a few releases; either way, its more or less a copypasta of the 4th Edition Space Marine codex with a page from the old Codex Daemonhunters thrown in.

[minigun762]

Back on topic : In my mind, there is no point to get a Aspiring champ if you don't buy PF or a combiweapon.

 

Absolutely the case. Unless you're doing it for modeling or fluff reasons or because you think summoning a greater daemon is a good idea, the naked champ is a bad buy.

 

The +1A means next to nothing when you already have 20-30 from a full size squad and while LD10>LD9, LD9 +IoCG > LD10 as you pointed out.

 

For me, if the squad is equipped with either meltaguns or flamers it gets a power fist champ and if they have plasmaguns, they don't get any champ and just have to tough it out with LD9 and a reroll.