Aspiring Champion in CSM Squads

[KingDeath]

Why would you want squad below 10-strong? You're doing yourself out of a special weapon, surely

 

Because you pay many more points for that special weapon. 5 Chaosmarines already give a scoring troopchoice. 5 more don't add any benefits besides themselfs ( and they aren't that impressive to begin with ) and perhaps a second specialweapon while the first five gave you 5 marines, a specialweapon and a troopchoice.

[the jeske]

makes no sense . without discount on transports without viable way to play razorspam without ATKNF and more support then just in the hvy slots chaos armies cant play 5 man csm squads . a single special does nothing , you need 2-3 melta per tank/transport and 2x2 plasma to hurt a squad of meq/teq . only way to play small squads with chaos is to take 5 man PM and those always run with 2 specials because it is better so.

[KingDeath]

makes no sense . without discount on transports without viable way to play razorspam without ATKNF and more support then just in the hvy slots chaos armies cant play 5 man csm squads . a single special does nothing , you need 2-3 melta per tank/transport and 2x2 plasma to hurt a squad of meq/teq . only way to play small squads with chaos is to take 5 man PM and those always run with 2 specials because it is better so.

 

Instead of one ten men squad you almost get two five men squads. If you throw away the standard and the powerfist you can equip both with combimelters + normal melter.

Now buy a Rhino and you have two quite durable squads ( who would never have to leave their rhinos ), with 2 meltershoots each and the ability to engage two targets instead of one while your enemy has to deal with two vehicles instead of just one.

 

Imo the only reason to take normal Chaosmarines over PMs is cost and the (imo) most efficient way to take Chaosmarines is to maximise the amount of meltershots and Rhinos you can bring to the table.

[Brother Ambroz]

Instead of one ten men squad you almost get two five men squads. If you throw away the standard and the powerfist you can equip both with combimelters + normal melter.

Now buy a Rhino and you have two quite durable squads ( who would never have to leave their rhinos ), with 2 meltershoots each and the ability to engage two targets instead of one while your enemy has to deal with two vehicles instead of just one.

 

Imo the only reason to take normal Chaosmarines over PMs is cost and the (imo) most efficient way to take Chaosmarines is to maximise the amount of meltershots and Rhinos you can bring to the table.

 

 

You do realize combi means one shot? And do you realize how easy rhinos are to pop? All your opponent would have to do is take a few autocannons and there goes that rhino idea. Then all they have to do is send in a CC unit, doesn't even have to be a decent one just a cc unit, and they'll take out those "combat squad'd" CSM.

[KingDeath]

Instead of one ten men squad you almost get two five men squads. If you throw away the standard and the powerfist you can equip both with combimelters + normal melter.

Now buy a Rhino and you have two quite durable squads ( who would never have to leave their rhinos ), with 2 meltershoots each and the ability to engage two targets instead of one while your enemy has to deal with two vehicles instead of just one.

 

Imo the only reason to take normal Chaosmarines over PMs is cost and the (imo) most efficient way to take Chaosmarines is to maximise the amount of meltershots and Rhinos you can bring to the table.

 

 

You do realize combi means one shot? And do you realize how easy rhinos are to pop? All your opponent would have to do is take a few autocannons and there goes that rhino idea. Then all they have to do is send in a CC unit, doesn't even have to be a decent one just a cc unit, and they'll take out those "combat squad'd" CSM.

 

One shot is enough. Fire those two meltas to destroy something and then use the five men squad for, well whatever, or just use them as object grabbers. I mean, what do you expect will happen to even a ten men melter squad which actively hunts heavy vehicles?

CC units will kill a 10 men Chaos Marine squad just as much as they kill a 5 man squad. You even lose more points with the tooled up ten men squad. Rhinos are, like almost all transports, vulnerable but offer protection against small arms which means that your object grabber cannot be simply boltered to death ( the single firepoint helps a bit , tankshocks are also an option, last but not least a wrecked rhino means cover ).

The vulnerability against anti tank weapons is not realy a problem if you take many of them. In the best case your enemy will use quite a bit of his anti tank fire on your Rhinos and not on your Obliterators.

[darth_giles]

CC units will kill a 10 men Chaos Marine squad just as much as they kill a 5 man squad. You even lose more points with the tooled up ten men squad. Rhinos are, like almost all transports, vulnerable but offer protection against small arms which means that your object grabber cannot be simply boltered to death ( the single firepoint helps a bit , tankshocks are also an option, last but not least a wrecked rhino means cover ).

I'm starting to think that large squads of Noise Marines might actually be a good idea now; unload them on an objective and then let them gun down anything that tries to get within sonic blaster range.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

CC units will kill a 10 men Chaos Marine squad just as much as they kill a 5 man squad. You even lose more points with the tooled up ten men squad. Rhinos are, like almost all transports, vulnerable but offer protection against small arms which means that your object grabber cannot be simply boltered to death ( the single firepoint helps a bit , tankshocks are also an option, last but not least a wrecked rhino means cover ).

I'm starting to think that large squads of Noise Marines might actually be a good idea now; unload them on an objective and then let them gun down anything that tries to get within sonic blaster range.

 

If you can absorb the price tag on those guys. I love some Noise Marines, but they're high cost and rarely survive long.

[Brother Ambroz]

One shot is enough. Fire those two meltas to destroy something and then use the five men squad for, well whatever, or just use them as object grabbers. I mean, what do you expect will happen to even a ten men melter squad which actively hunts heavy vehicles?

CC units will kill a 10 men Chaos Marine squad just as much as they kill a 5 man squad. You even lose more points with the tooled up ten men squad. Rhinos are, like almost all transports, vulnerable but offer protection against small arms which means that your object grabber cannot be simply boltered to death ( the single firepoint helps a bit , tankshocks are also an option, last but not least a wrecked rhino means cover ).

The vulnerability against anti tank weapons is not realy a problem if you take many of them. In the best case your enemy will use quite a bit of his anti tank fire on your Rhinos and not on your Obliterators.

 

If you're creating a troop squad with the single purpose of going after vehicles then sure it's better. I'd rather use my squads multipuposely, 2x melta and a PF. You never know if you're going to face a mech force or DSing infantry. No rhinos aren't bad transports that wasn't my point. If you spend most of your points on anti-tank you're relying soley on your oblits/DPs for infantry as well, which they aren't bad persay but there are alot of better things out there nowadays.

[Excessus]

In my army there are(almost) no such thing as a "dedicated unit" for one sole purpose, I build my army to be flexible and to be able to handle multiple situations and whatever comes it's way...I have 10-man CSM units with meltas and a fist, being able to handle anything on the battlefield. A dedicated cc unit will be whittled down with twice as many guns as a 5-man unit would be able to fire, and due to being twice as many bodies, they are more survivable to stray shots and anti-infantry fire...all the points about the rhino is valid as well since they can use it as a portable firebase and cover...

 

I don't think I have had a single game where my meltas only fired once...

 

Well, I do have my berzerkers, but even they, though being a dedicated cc unit, have other uses...such as area denial and target priority shenanigans. People doesn't usually want a squad of zerkers near their troops, within assault distance...they'll try and shoot the rhino down with A LOT of firepower...did anyone say "decoy"? :(

[Warsmith Aznable]

People doesn't usually want a squad of zerkers near their troops, within assault distance...they'll try and shoot the rhino down with A LOT of firepower...did anyone say "decoy"? :(

 

That's why they wear those big bunny ears, man, it's all to get the enemy's attention.

[Kristoff]

I don't think I have had a single game where my meltas only fired once...

 

It would if it was a Combi-Melta, which I think that previous point about that was made.

[Excessus]

I don't think I have had a single game where my meltas only fired once...

 

It would if it was a Combi-Melta, which I think that previous point about that was made.

yeah, well I just wanted to state that I'd rather take a squad with two meltaguns than a squad with a meltagun and a combimelta...

 

...heck, I could just take a squad with two meltaguns AND a combimelta...

[KingDeath]

I don't think I have had a single game where my meltas only fired once...

 

It would if it was a Combi-Melta, which I think that previous point about that was made.

yeah, well I just wanted to state that I'd rather take a squad with two meltaguns than a squad with a meltagun and a combimelta...

 

...heck, I could just take a squad with two meltaguns AND a combimelta...

 

Keep in mind that your squad will get even more expensive. Chaos Spacemarines are simply not good enough for their price to be taken in large numbers.

The reasoning behind my posts was to get as many vehicles and melters for as little points as possible because the bog standard Chaosmarine isn't particularly useful ( the same can be said for tactical marines, but they have at least atsknf, free flamers/ missile launchers and the ability to take razorbacks ) .

[cernunnos]

Thanks for the replies.

 

I have run some numbers to help evaluate the powerfist and shed a bit more light on the issue. (Standard caveats about not basing decisions solely on mathhammer of course apply)

First I had a look at the damage output (average wounds caused against MEQ) of the squad in 4 different builds both on the charge and receiving the charge/later turns in combat:

 

Squad Build Charged Charging

10 CSM 1.67 2.5

10 CSM w/ PF 2.33 3.5

10 CSM w/ IoK 2.5 3.33

10 CSM w/ PF & IoK 3.5 4.67

 

 

Rather interestingly whilst the PF is marginally better than the IoK when charging, when receiving a charge or in subsequent rounds of combat is actually worse. This would suggest a PF is better on a squad with assault special weapons, rather than one with rapid fire weapons, which would be more likely to receive the charge, although there is a 20pt premium for this bonus (assuming the IoCG is also purchased).

 

I then had a look at the chances of either wrecking or destroying a Dreadnought with a PF.

 

Attacks % Chance of Wrecked or Destroyed

2 11%

3 16%

4 20%

 

Even charging with the IoK there is only a 20% chance of stopping the dread having another round of attacks against you. As you are unlikely to charge a dread with this squad it is the 11% chance for the IoCG squad or the 16% chance for the IoK squad. Not impressive.

 

This suggests that the PF is not an effective counter to dreadnoughts. Just depends on whether opponents that run them would perceive them as such.

 

Moving on to combi-meltas, I looked at the chance of Wrecked, Destroyed and Immobilised with 1 or 2. I included immobilised because as you shoot before it gets to CC this is another result that prevents it beating up and delaying your squad in CC. I could not be bothered to include the chance of a positive result on a glance. In reality these chances would be fractionally higher but not too much so this is a rough approximation.

 

Shots % Chance of Immobilised, Wrecked or Destroyed

1 28%

2 48%

 

2 Combi meltas is 5 pts cheaper than a PF AC but a substantially more reliable threat against walkers than a PF. Even a single 10 pt combi-melta outperforms every PF scenario, even the most unrealistic one.

 

The only persuasive argument I can see for the fist is the IC deterrence, and it is a good one. With combi-meltas, meanwhile, 10pts isn’t bad for one and at least some threat against a walker (certainly better than a pf in this regard). 2 would be better but that is almost fist cost, and I already have concerns about the squad getting too expensive. The Ld 10 gives better security against losing combats so does have a role. I am not bothered about shooting casualties or pinning. They have a rhino, and Ld 9 gives an 83% chance of passing a leadership test which I feel is perfectly adequate whilst obviously will still lead to annoying situations from time to time.

 

At present I am leaning towards trying the squad simply as 10 CSM w/ IoK and 2 flamers in a rhino. If I have walker troubles I will include a combi-melta on the rhino and see if that acts as a deterrent (as opposed to a reliable counter). Leadership troubles will see an AC probably with another combi-melta (to boost the anti-walker capabilities). IC troubles and he may get a fist. Basically I think I will start cheap and only add upgrades if the squad struggles to get to perform its primary role without them. I don’t think any of them contribute towards the primary role of shooting and assaulting light infantry directly in any substantial way, and if I can get away without them its seems sensible to save the points to spend elsewhere.

 

As for the plasma version of the squad I think I will drop this squad completely. Whilst I think the numbers above show the IoK is a good mark for a squad receiving the charge (surprisingly better than the fist), which with a rapid fire weapon is likely, it is a hefty price for 2 plasma guns. Chosen/havocs can bring more, and a similar points cost of Thousand sons will vastly outperform it against MEQ. As I have a soft spot for Thousand Sons I think a squad of these with a wind sorcerer will make my list.

[minigun762]

One thing to consider about the power fist is that you get twice as many attacks per turn as shooting, as you can only shoot during your turn but the fist can be punching things during both player's assault phases. I wasn't 100% sure if that was accounted for in your math-hammering.

 

As for Icon of Khorne, I'm not convinced that its a good buy unless you pair it with a power fist. The increase in killing light infantry is nice but thats something that CSMs do very well already, even more so if they have a flamer or two. I would much rather save points by giving the squad IoCG instead of IoK, especially if they were going without an AC for LD10.

 

That being said, starting cheap with your CSMs is a good method because its easy for those little upgrades to add up over time.

[Brother Nihm]

Especially in an older 'dex with many overcosted units, like ours.

[cernunnos]

One thing to consider about the power fist is that you get twice as many attacks per turn as shooting, as you can only shoot during your turn but the fist can be punching things during both player's assault phases. I wasn't 100% sure if that was accounted for in your math-hammering.

 

No the mathhammering only accounts for one round of either shooting or combat.

 

Out of interest here are the stats for 2 rounds of close combat:

 

IoCG 2 rounds no charge (4 attacks) - 20%

IoCG Charging (5 attacks) - 25%

IoK 2 rounds no charge (6 attacks) - 29%

IoK Charging (7 attacks) - 33%

 

Even charging with the IoK you are still only in the vicinity of a single melta shot. Slightly better chance perhaps but there is the cost of perhaps 2 rounds of CC damage to consider too, when comapring the two.

[minigun762]

Interesting results to be sure. I always find the numbers behind tactics to be revealing though I will admit in this case I don't think that I would personally change my given loadout of 2x Melta and Power Fist for most squads as that buried fist gives me a fair amount of insurance against not only walkers but MCs and ICs as well.

 

Its my feeling that the 10 man minimum for 2 special weapons in a CSM squad makes it easier to spend the extra points on an AC just in case. Thats not the case with other armies that can use MSU for special weapon spamming. The closest that Chaos gets to that is with 5 man Plague Marine squads but doing so can be an effective tactic.