I am Alpharius...

[Coryphaus 101]

Hear hear.

[brother heckengar]

What about Horus, he was close to Alpharius do you think that he knew about Omegon? And in First Heretic the squad did see the pod with two bodies in. So wouldn`t the Word Bearers could have guess it?

[Pulse]

Out of all the Primarchs i think Horus would be the most likely to know of "the twins" but saying that Alpharius/Omegon are massively secret so it is very possible that they kept knowledge of a twin from everyone even their closest brother Primarchs.

[Lady_Mournival]

Which leads me to wonder...are all members of the Alpha Legion the same size as their primarchs?

I think it's more that Alpharius/Omegon are the size of their astartes. For primarchs I imagine they're on the short side.

Both incorrect, remember during the meeting with Lord Commander Teng Namatjira? Dinas Chayne realised that both the marines claiming to be Alpharius (Sheed Ranko) and Omegon were taller then the other two? This is my proof that in "reality" Sheed, Omegon, and Alpharius are all actually closer in height then your average marine. If anyone ever had the nerves to ask/start asking questions, well, it isn't unheard of to have abnormally tall marines.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Why would the marines be smaller because of their primarch? For the most part gene-seed doesn't affect their appearance.

As far as I can tell, geneseed actually kind of DOMINATES a Marine's appearance.

Salamanders with black skin and red eyes

Raven guard with white skin, black hair, black eyes

Emperor's Children with white hair

Blood Angels with blond hair and blue eyes

Luna Wolves who look like Horus

Space Wolves with fangs and whatnot

etc

etc

etc

 

 

My reckoning is that Alpharius WOULD HAVE been an especially huge Primarch, but in being spirited away by Chaos and split into two bodies he was sort of divided more or less in half.

His body was split into two smaller ones, his Primarch aura of majesty was diluted down til it didn't make him harder to face than a Marine was anyways, his Primarch "soul" only inhabits one of his two bodies, etc etc.

Since they don't get divided into twin Marines, the Alpha Legionnaires inherit Alpharius original potential to be extra tall instead.

[Firenze]

Why would the marines be smaller because of their primarch? For the most part gene-seed doesn't affect their appearance.

As far as I can tell, geneseed actually kind of DOMINATES a Marine's appearance.

Salamanders with black skin and red eyes

Raven guard with white skin, black hair, black eyes

Emperor's Children with white hair

Blood Angels with blond hair and blue eyes

Luna Wolves who look like Horus

Space Wolves with fangs and whatnot

etc

etc

etc

 

 

My reckoning is that Alpharius WOULD HAVE been an especially huge Primarch, but in being spirited away by Chaos and split into two bodies he was sort of divided more or less in half.

His body was split into two smaller ones, his Primarch aura of majesty was diluted down til it didn't make him harder to face than a Marine was anyways, his Primarch "soul" only inhabits one of his two bodies, etc etc.

Since they don't get divided into twin Marines, the Alpha Legionnaires inherit Alpharius original potential to be extra tall instead.

 

That is my theory too. The same amount of material and power divided in half. Its why all of my Alphas are true scaled.

[Brother Immolator]

The simplest answer to this debate can be specially modified power armor to give them the size the need when masquerading.

[The 13th Goat]

The simplest answer to this debate can be specially modified power armor to give them the size the need when masquerading.

 

What, like Platform shoes?

 

If anyone ever had the nerves to ask/start asking questions, well, it isn't unheard of to have abnormally tall marines.

 

LoL. There actually fairly common. Think about it, how many Space Marine books have you read where the protagonists "close buddy" is "Large, even by Astartes standards." The Salamanders series, the Ultramarines series, the Grey Kinghts books, Abaddon the Despoiler (close buddy in Horus Rising :) )...

 

Almost all of them have "terminator armour reshaped becasue they were TOO BIG".* It's hilarious!

 

Thing is, I have a theory. I think their personal geneseed is actually from the Alpha Legion. The first batch of warriors created using their geneseed were said to be bigger than most. Couple that with their Primarch's preferance of information gathering, and the idea of espionage into Loyalist legions starts too look viable!

 

 

*Except for Abaddon who quite rightly told his armourers "OR I could just wear Terminator armour?"

[Brother Immolator]

Not exactly platform shoes.You could create a special form of power armor that is bulkier and larger.

[Sanct]

Surely this depends on how/when the original legions are created.

Is the creation of each legion based on DNA/geenseed from the primarchs individually? Or are all the space marine legions from a single source/design and become altered when the Primarch joins them. (which could go some way towards Khârn's description of the change in the iron warriors when perturabo was found in 'Tales of Heresy')

 

It would go some way to explaining the first generation being different to those following and how heresy-era traitor marines tend to describe loyalist 40kers as weak copies of those from the heresy (which -yes- might just as easily be propaganda)

[Brother Immolator]

Surely this depends on how/when the original legions are created.

Is the creation of each legion based on DNA/geenseed from the primarchs individually? Or are all the space marine legions from a single source/design and become altered when the Primarch joins them. (which could go some way towards Khârn's description of the change in the iron warriors when perturabo was found in 'Tales of Heresy')

 

It would go some way to explaining the first generation being different to those following and how heresy-era traitor marines tend to describe loyalist 40kers as weak copies of those from the heresy (which -yes- might just as easily be propaganda)

 

But we know that the emperor made each legion by using the genetic templates of their primarch.

[Tezzy]

All the Primarchs vary in size do they not? They're all typically larger than Astartes who themselves are massive but some like Magnus are supposed to be near enough giants in the Crusade era. Is it really that great a stretch to believe that Alpharius was only a shade taller than his sons?

 

And I'd imagine the Emperor and all of the other Primarchs knew that Alpharius was a twin, they do share a special bond beyond the comprehension of mortals, so perhaps nobody else outside of his brothers, father and sons knew.

 

At the very least, surely Magnus knew? There couldn't have been much he didn't know about everything Crusade era considering he knew about the origins of Fenris!

[NemFX]

The impression I got is that while the Alpha Legion's primarchs are still fairly giant in comparison to the average person, they aren't quite as ginormous as the average primarch.

 

Let's break this down to numbers:

 

Let's say the average Imperial Army guy is about.. 6 feet.

Let's say the average Space Marine guy is about.. 8 feet.

Let's say the average Primarch is somewhere around.. 9.5 feet.

So then, let's say that Alpharius and Omegon are around 8.5 feet.

 

Being a foot and a half taller than someone else is giant enough, and is close enough to the average marine height to not be too noticable. The Alpha Legion has a decent number of taller individuals, around 10 or so, but out of how many hundreds?

 

If memory serves, the thing that John noticed was really less about the eyes, I recall him saying one had a different nose, and one was predisposed to growing hair.

 

 

 

.. Alpharius is off in the Imperium's equivolent of Las Vegas, doing impersonations of himself, from when he was in his prime.

[Hellios]

I would also like to point out that at some points where Alpharius is mentioned to be shorter than the other primarchs... he may have had his helmet on... and with his helmet on I imagine it might even be hard for other primarchs to tell it was Alpharius if Alpharius and his marines practiced behaving like each other... assuming no behavior like dueling where the comparative lack of skill would give a marine away. So maybe Alpharius was small because it wasn't Alpharius but a tall marine on some occasions.

 

That is also my theory with the supposed killing of Alpharius by RG... It wasn't Alpharius but RG couldn't tell.

[Legatus]

and with his helmet on I imagine it might even be hard for other primarchs to tell it was Alpharius if Alpharius and his marines practiced behaving like each other... assuming no behavior like dueling where the comparative lack of skill would give a marine away. So maybe Alpharius was small because it wasn't Alpharius but a tall marine on some occasions.

 

That is also my theory with the supposed killing of Alpharius by RG... It wasn't Alpharius but RG couldn't tell.

Only that they were duelling at that point. And the Ultramarines + Guilliman stayed to burn the body of "Alpharius" on a pyre, so they had enought time to de-helm him and take a closer look. Then there is the point that when the account had been written, the concept of two Alphariuses did not exist, so when the author wrote "Alpharius entered the fight, killing a few Ultramarines, then he and Guilliman duelled, and Alpharius died" he meant exactly that to have happened.

 

It is allways possible that the campaign report cited in the Index Astartes turns out to be a fake. And it is also possible that BL will simply retcon the Index Astartes fluff. But if we assume that the campaign report in that Index Astartes is accurate, then Alpharius is dead.

[Hellios]

and with his helmet on I imagine it might even be hard for other primarchs to tell it was Alpharius if Alpharius and his marines practiced behaving like each other... assuming no behavior like dueling where the comparative lack of skill would give a marine away. So maybe Alpharius was small because it wasn't Alpharius but a tall marine on some occasions.

 

That is also my theory with the supposed killing of Alpharius by RG... It wasn't Alpharius but RG couldn't tell.

Only that they were duelling at that point. And the Ultramarines + Guilliman stayed to burn the body of "Alpharius" on a pyre, so they had enought time to de-helm him and take a closer look. Then there is the point that when the account had been written, the concept of two Alphariuses did not exist, so when the author wrote "Alpharius entered the fight, killing a few Ultramarines, then he and Guilliman duelled, and Alpharius died" he meant exactly that to have happened.

 

It is allways possible that the campaign report cited in the Index Astartes turns out to be a fake. And it is also possible that BL will simply retcon the Index Astartes fluff. But if we assume that the campaign report in that Index Astartes is accurate, then Alpharius is dead.

 

Oh I know it may be fake... but we are talking about the Legion of deception... so if it did happen I doubt it was Alpharius... and RG didn't really know Alpharius that well so he may not have been able to tell... especially if he had other matters on his mind... If this report isn't a fake... things were getting rough for the UMs. I was referring to most of the meetings when he is apparently short... The duel seemed overly simple in my mind for it to have been Alpharius especially as direct confrontation isn't his style.

[Pulse]

The duel seemed overly simple in my mind for it to have been Alpharius especially as direct confrontation isn't his style.

Very much so. Alpharius would never have engaged in a personal duel, unless of course it was a final option but even then that doesn't sound like Alpharius given his nature.

 

Edit: Spelling.

[Legatus]

As I said, the author meant for it to be Alpharius. And in that account, Guilliman is said to have surprised Alpharius with a rapid advance, striking directly at his current position. So in that situation Alpharius indeed had no other choice. It was about 600 Alpha Legion versus 3000 Ultramarines in that particular encounter, so Alpharius had to fight.

[Dràyhèn]

and with his helmet on I imagine it might even be hard for other primarchs to tell it was Alpharius if Alpharius and his marines practiced behaving like each other... assuming no behavior like dueling where the comparative lack of skill would give a marine away. So maybe Alpharius was small because it wasn't Alpharius but a tall marine on some occasions.

 

That is also my theory with the supposed killing of Alpharius by RG... It wasn't Alpharius but RG couldn't tell.

Only that they were duelling at that point. And the Ultramarines + Guilliman stayed to burn the body of "Alpharius" on a pyre, so they had enought time to de-helm him and take a closer look. Then there is the point that when the account had been written, the concept of two Alphariuses did not exist, so when the author wrote "Alpharius entered the fight, killing a few Ultramarines, then he and Guilliman duelled, and Alpharius died" he meant exactly that to have happened.

 

It is allways possible that the campaign report cited in the Index Astartes turns out to be a fake. And it is also possible that BL will simply retcon the Index Astartes fluff. But if we assume that the campaign report in that Index Astartes is accurate, then Alpharius is dead.

I won't be quoting AD-B or Abnett as I'm not 100% sure of this, but I recall either of them mentioning that the Alpharius/Omegon concept had been invented before the Legion. As I said I'm not sure if it was either of the two I mentioned, but I read this from somewhere nonetheless, given as a fact.

[mc warhammer]

I love this topic for some insane reason. Repost:

 

1. He is described as "more than a foot taller than Luna Wolf" marines (IA)

2. He is described as "almost a match for Horus himself" physically. (IA)

3. He is described as "equal in stature" to Guilliman (IA)

4. He holds himself "erect, as though attempting to match the beings around him in stature" (Fulgrim)

5. Described as "considerably taller than both his captains" (Legion)

6. Described as "substantially larger than either Herzog or Pech" (Legion)

7. Described as "almost a head shorter than his brothers" (Aurellian)

 

In addition the Alpha Legion astartes are described as " tall and strong, much reminiscent of their Primarch" (IA)

 

Keep in mind, the only one of these that is even close to a positive ID of the primarch and not a second hand account, a written report or a full helmed individual calling himself Alpharius is 6. Perhaps 5.

 

Though Deliverance Lost has some new potential possible maybe sorta stuff in relation to this...

[Gunslinger87]

I still don't see why Alpharius/Omegon can't purposefully (and by that I mean, because the Emperor wanted so) be as tall as some of the taller space marines in his Legion. i.e. When the emperor made twins, he probably saw exactly the kind of potential that the Alpha Legion ended up exploiting. If this was a mistake (identical twins by mistake from some botched genetics experiment) then he might have made the space marines intentionally identical to make up for it etc.

 

PS Do you really believe that someone who can manipulate genetics in such a way as to create a primarch, space marines etc. and can make sure they all have similar characteristics, are all male, have entirely new organs.... wouldn't be able to make sure his ultimate creation (and the last one of those, though the order doesn't probably matter) wouldn't be twins unless he didn't want them to be? Yeah. Exactly.

 

Plus the "awe" and all that when humans and astartes see the primarchs could very much be a psychic effect than a purely physical one. If Alpharius/Omegon were made specifically with the purpose of being stealth units, focusing on concealment, it would only make sense to at least give them the ability of hiding themself psychically. but not like Corax for example, i.e. physically disappear... but appear as any other marine.

[Revelation]

In Aurelian, it is said that Alpharius is a head shorter than his other Primarch brothers...the thing is that he was wearing a helmet, why cover your face if your around your brothers? I mean your brothers must already know who you are and how you look like, I mean Horus was the first Primarch that Alpharius met when he assaulted Horus Battle Barge. So what i can assume is that it wasn't really Alpharius, but one of the warriors he uses to take his place to negotiate with others just like how he did the novel Legion. So he must of used one of his tallest Space Marines to masquerade as himself. I mean he and his legion are experts at subterfuge...

[Honda]

I just love the fact that we'll never figure this out. :)

[NemFX]

Alpharius! .. is deader than dead

Shock! .. it's all in your head

 

(to the tune of Marilyn Manson's "Rock is dead")

[Pulse]

As I said, the author meant for it to be Alpharius. And in that account, Guilliman is said to have surprised Alpharius with a rapid advance, striking directly at his current position. So in that situation Alpharius indeed had no other choice. It was about 600 Alpha Legion versus 3000 Ultramarines in that particular encounter, so Alpharius had to fight.

You think Alpharius, probably the most cunning and shrewd primarch, would have been suprised by a rapid advance?

 

Rapid advance of an enemy is something all commanders prepare for, even the worst, so again it comes down to the fact that realistically Guilliman would have been allowed to advance the way he did even with overwhelming numbers.

 

The main point of course, whatever theories is that the Ultramarines themselves don't actually think Alpharius died.