No Long Fangs

[old git]

The tournament is finished. 5 games in which I took a dual 'raider (Crusader) plus lots of hunters list (and no Long Fangs, as per title). Having played at a few tournies this year with very similar lists (Fangs in r/backs plus hunters and scouts) I wanted to shake things up a bit and see what fell out. Perhaps it was me not being used to playing without long range support but overall, it didn't work. In 4 out of the 5 games I really could have done with the steadying influence and firepower of the veteran wolves. In order it went like this;

 

Game 1 - Sisters (their last outing by a good player who knows them inside out and is a mate as well). 3 exorcists could have used some krak/lascannon attention.

Game 2 - Ork horde. 9 killa kans, ditto.

Game 3 - Guard infantry with Leman Russ support. This was the game where the lack of Fangs didn't matter too much. Front armour 14 on the Russ' would have shrugged off most missiles and when the hunters got amongst the guard infantry the Russ' couldn't do much about it.

Game 4 - Sisters (again). When we saw we had been drawn again we looked forward to the match up rather than ask to be swapped because we always have a cracking game. The exorcists still needed that krak missile love.

Game 5 - Grey Knights razor/dreadnought spam. He deployed so far back (in a spearhead deployment) that my assault element was shot to bits before they got into contact. The Fangs could really have equalled the field here. A one dimensional army with no thought about having a good game.

 

Perhaps there are other builds that could do better without Long Fang support but the one I used this weekend wasn't it. On to building that second lot of thunderwolves it is then.

[Vantius]

Can you post your list, or provide a link to your list? It would be hard to talk about your performance without knowing more of what you brought.

[RunningWolfFenris]

I'm not advocating 3 LFs units, but ranged support is needed. Without fear of heavy weapons in some capacity it allows vehicles or heavy units to execute their gameplan as they want to without worrying about long range fire support.

[Karack Blackstone]

As stated, some form of Long Range firepower is a definite plus, be it TLLC on Dreads and Predators, or just in general something with the capacity to disable vehicles in a similar range bracket.

 

LF's are made quite nice this addition. The problem is effectively picking up the slack when it is down, due to another form of SW list. LF's are really hard to beat, sadly, however.

 

I'm debating squeezing two units into my 3K list, down from 4K or so. Still tweaking, but it's supposed to be fun for me, and fun to see on the table, at least for me, again. That's kind of the thing, how does one have enough fun to see their list on the table, but potentially win as well? Winning isn't everything, some say it's the only thing. The issue I would raise is whether SW's can fight without LF's: the answer is yes, the question though at that point is how, and with what tactics and strategy. It's not easy, but it may be worth its own discussion.

[RunningWolfFenris]

I'm thinking of trying to get by with only 1 unit of LFs with a Razorback w/ TLLC. Hopefully this is enough fire support but I'm not opposed to 2 units of LFs or taking a rifleman dread.

[DV8]

I don't make a regular habit of fielding Long Fangs (in fact, in almost 3 years of using the new Codex and well over 300-400+ games, I've only used Long Fangs 5 times. 4 of which were in a doubles tournament (and it was a unit of 6 with 5 Heavy Bolters).

 

The trick to building an army without Long Fangs is to realize what they bring, how to counteract the shortcomings the lack of them presents, and understand how that will invariably affect your army list/play style.

 

Long Fangs bring cheap long ranged firepower. Their are static, and they are infantry, meaning their firepower is only removed from the "equation" if forced to move, break, or destroyed. This means that Long Fangs and armies that rely on Long Fangs for firepower suffer in 1/3 of the missions by default because of Dawn of War. Some people find this an acceptable pitfall. I do not.

 

There are three broad targets you are required to kill: infantry, monsters, and armor.

 

infantry

 

While targeting infantry with Long Fangs is overkill, sometimes lack of targets, or just the army you happen to be facing, will necessitate the surgical application of excessively overwhelming firepower to eliminate the enemy. However, with the best basic troops in the game (Grey Hunters), you have other tools on hand that can do the same thing. This does mean you will need to get up closer, and perhaps take Flamers (or Wolf Guard) with Combi-Flamers. Also, using Murderous Hurricane is a great way to delay and control assault units breathing down your neck.

 

Armor

 

Armor will fall into three broad categories: light armor or transports, medium armor (that is, support vehicles) and heavy armor (typically assault vehicles).

 

Of the three, killing transports becomes key, as you need to cripple enemy mobility. Destroying medium armor will reduce enemy firepower. Heavy armor is a mixed bag, things like Land Raiders and Monoliths are tough nuts to crack with AV 14 all around. Leman Russes, while they are AV 14 from the front, have weak armor on the sides and rear. Close range Meltaguns (Grey Hunters, Drop Pod squads, Tornadoes, OBEL Wolf Scouts, etc.) are a great tool to have, as well, sneaking shots on side armor where possibl reduces the difficulty of killing these armored behemoths.

 

Monsters

 

Unfortunately without Long Fangs, you lack the effective and efficient way of dispatching Monstrous Creatures. The most useful tool I can recommend is Jaws of the World Wolf, which is why I field two priests each with Jaws. I also use lots of Land Speeders (Tornadoes and Typhoons) to knock wounds off and finishing off with Grey Hunters.

 

It definitely makes killing monsters harder, but strategic play and good target priority and list/unit synergy will allow you to prevail. One thing is a certain, you can't just drop Long Fangs from your list and expect to have your army perform the same. It requires a complete rebuilding if your army and play style.

 

 

DV8.

[littlbitz]

I rarely if ever field Long Fangs, and manage to do quite well without them.

 

To expand upon DV8's thoughts, I break my lists up into 3 sections the rear, center and forward units. typically these operate in groups. Many Space Wolf armies I see these days concentrate on the rear and center units, and mainly use the forward units as counter attack elements in their lists.

 

When you build an army without Long Fangs you need to concentrate on your forward and center elements, with your rear elements being for grabbing objectives (one or two small GH packs in Razorbacks). Now you would think that these are easy targets for your opponent, but in reality, they are typically ignored because of your forward elements.

 

For both "Monster killing" and "Tank Hunting" I use my Bikers with my Wolf Lord instead of Long Fangs, and it works well for me. Thunder Wolf Cavalry can do the same.

[Blacksad]

for monster killing and tankhunting, aren't Landspeeders ace?

[Torvak Kyre]

I played a game on Sunday and managed to pull it off without long fangs. We played a capture and control mission with only one objective in the centre of the board. The rules were that the side with the most units in the wood(scoring or non-scoring) won. I rushed my Grey Hunters (in rhino), Wolf Guard and Wolf Lord(in razorback) and my fen wolves into the centre whilst my Vindicator trundled along towards the halfway point. My GH and WG disembarked into the wood as my fen wolves ran in and my vindi loosed a shot at their pred. After that it was just a game of defence for me which I won.

 

It can be done you just need to have the right set up.

[Simo429]

for monster killing and tankhunting, aren't Landspeeders ace?

Tank hunting yeah but not really for monsterous creatures seeing as most are above T 4 so can't be instant killed

[the jeske]

We played a capture and control mission with only one objective in the centre of the board.

may I know against which codex did you play ?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I've never done the LF thing, too brittle, lacking flexibility and quite often can fire in the first turn anyway. Land Speeders are cheap and agile mounts for heavy weapons. Yes, they can also be brittle, but put the wind up many payers.

 

WS are also great at upsetting the baseline hugger - he either stays there and faces MB joy, or moves forward into range.

 

Vindicator - yum, yum

[Blacksad]

prepped a 2500 non LF list for a game this weekend, and I don't think armour and monsters will be a problem... it is a DP list tough:

 

3x 9 Grey Hunters with PW, MotW, WS and melta in DP

2x 9 Grey Hunters with PW, MotW, WS and plasma in DP

1x 8 Grey Hunters with PW, MotW, WS and melta in DP

2x 3 Wolf Guard with PF in DP (4x CM, 2x CP)

Dread with HF, PC & WTT in DP

Ragnar

Land Speeder (MM)

Land Speeder Typhoon with MM

2 Landspeeder Typhoon with MM

 

clocks in at 2498, has 8 Meltaguns (4 of which combi) 2 plasmaguns (1 combi) a plasmacannon, 4 MM, 3 missile launchers and a Heavy flamer. add to that the powerfists and the dread, and the sheer amount of bolterfire should (I hope) go a long way for covering my loss in long range firepower

[DV8]

Land Speeders can be great for knocking off wounds on Monstrous Creatures, but straight up killing them? Factoring shots that miss, fail to wound, any cover saves they might get, it's very rare you'll kill one in a single phase of shooting (I've never achieved it). If anything, Jaws the low Initiative monsters, and save your firepower for the high Initiative ones (most monsters are either I1 or I4+; target I1, shoot I4+).

 

As for Drop Pod lists, the problem is that you only receive half your army on the first turn, and you risk drip-feeding your opponent the rest of your army. But for that one turn, you have half your army against (in theoretics) the entire enemy force. You had better hope your first half does a heck of a job crippling the enemy or you're handing them the game (especially with objective-based scenarios, since you lack any mobility afterwards to really move for them while maintaining that kind of firepower/pressure on the enemy ... do you drop onto objectives? Do you drop on the enemy and hope for time to take the objectives? If your support Pods drop to take objectives, you risk leaving your alpha wave unsupported).

 

 

DV8

[Blacksad]

drop empty pods to contest objectives I wasn't able to reach, or use speeders to fly there last turn, drop first turn depending on enemy I'm facing, eighter smack-dab in the middle of his lines, cluster around objectives, or drop into the midfield, using my own pods as cover

[DV8]

drop empty pods to contest objectives I wasn't able to reach, or use speeders to fly there last turn, drop first turn depending on enemy I'm facing, eighter smack-dab in the middle of his lines, cluster around objectives, or drop into the midfield, using my own pods as cover

 

I'm not saying it can't work. I just think Drop Pod armies have inherent weaknesses (particularly in 5th meta) that puts them at a significant disadvantage precisely because of the Drop Pod Assault rule that one HAS to work around (indeed, buying empty Drop Pods for units that don't intend to Drop Pod in first turn (like Long Fangs) is a good way to work around the "half must arrive on the First turn" rule). My point is I don't like it, and I'd rather have the continuous mobility than the initial surge and then foot slogging.

 

Now, mind you, a Wolf Guard army led by Logan would be a stronger Drop Pod army because of the flexibility of Wolf Guard as Troops, and the ability to pack Cyclones in foot squads that can move and shoot (essentially playing as pseudo Death Wing).

 

 

DV8

[Blacksad]

problem there is the amount of bodies that lowers fairly drasticaly.

 

5 WG = 6 GH. every TDA is a grey hunter less. every cyclone missile is 2 grey hunters less.

 

also find TDA becomes less and less reliable as the pointstotal of the battle goes up. same with Land Raiders.

 

field one at 500 pts, and there's little to no chance the opponent will have anything that can take it out. take one at 2500 pts, and you're going to have to keep it safe...

[DV8]

problem there is the amount of bodies that lowers fairly drasticaly.

 

5 WG = 6 GH. every TDA is a grey hunter less. every cyclone missile is 2 grey hunters less.

 

also find TDA becomes less and less reliable as the pointstotal of the battle goes up. same with Land Raiders.

 

field one at 500 pts, and there's little to no chance the opponent will have anything that can take it out. take one at 2500 pts, and you're going to have to keep it safe...

 

It's a totally different style though, and you can't play it comparatively like that (pts wise), because the units do two totally different things in two totally different armies.

 

By your logic, every Power Fist in my army is 1.75 Grey Hunters less, so why take Power Fists? Dropping the 3 Combi-Flamers from my Rhino squads buys me another Grey Hunter too! While we're on that note, I can drop my Wolf Banners and I'm 5 points shy of 3 more Grey Hunters... Similarly while TDA makes Wolf Guard pricier, they gain resilience and hitting power. For 33 points I get a Storm Bolter that can always fire 2 shots at 24" (and charge afterwards), a 2+/5+, and a Power Weapon for combat. A Grey Hunter with Power Weapon is already 30 points, that 3 points buys me Terminator Armor and a Storm Bolter, along with an extra Attack (granted I can't combine it with a Pistol like the Grey Hunter can) and Leadership 9.

 

It's Apples and Oranges, really, because a Wolf Guard army does not play like a "normal" Space Wolf army, more closer to Deathwing (and in fact I think better, because of the flexibility of Wolf Guard). And there are disadvantages in a Wolf Guard list you can offset with the rest of the book that Deathwing can't do (taking Wolf Scouts, for example).

 

And Land Raiders aren't competitive (at least not in my book). They never have been for me, and it's why I never field one, despite how imposing and absolutely badass they look.

 

 

DV8

[Blacksad]

by my logic powerfists add something needed to the army. I don't like the playstyle of a Loganwing, because of the amount of plasma and other ap2 around here. add to that the fact that the difference between 3+ and 2+ gets offset by huge amounts of fire. 20 shots will kill 5 termies easier than they will 10 powerarmour wearing models. it's bodies that I need :cuss

 

don't know if you noticed, but there are even powerfists and combi-weapons in my list :lol:

[DV8]

Just as Wolf Guard or even Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor can add something needed to the army as well. The key point is can. Are they always useful? No, just like Power Fists aren't always useful in my army either. But I have them just in case, because they are tools I need to tackle particular opponents. Just like certain army lists/styles can benefit from Wolf Guard in TDA (for the ability to mount Cyclones, for example)

 

*shrug* To each their own. I'm not saying a Wolf Guard force (or Wolfwing, whatever) is any easier (I actually play one myself), but what it does allow you to do is bring more empty Drop Pods (the Wolf Guard squads would advance on foot) allowing you to mix and match units to maximize amount of units arriving first turn without crippling your army, while at the same time contributing long-ranged firepower, something you desperately need if you lack mobility to bring your close-ranged firepower to the enemy quickly enough. Logan would also make your Wolf Guard scoring AND allow a Long Fangs pack to be taken with Relentless, giving you increased firepower (and the ability to use it) on the turn you land.

 

For example:

 

HQ // Logan Grimnar: 275 pts

 

Elites // Dreadnought: 150 pts

- Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

 

Elites // Dreadnought: 150 pts

- Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

 

Troops // 8 Grey Hunters: 170 pts

- Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod

 

Troops // 8 Grey Hunters: 170 pts

- Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod

 

Troops // 8 Grey Hunters: 170 pts

- Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Drop Pod

 

Troops // 10 Wolf Guard: 350 pts

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone, 1 Combi-Melta, Power Fist

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone

- Bolters, 1 Power Fist, 1 Combi-Melta

- Drop Pod

 

Troops // 10 Wolf Guard: 355 pts

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone, 1 Combi-Melta, Power Fist

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone

- Bolters, 1 Power Fist, 2 Combi-Meltas

- Drop Pod

 

Troops // 10 Wolf Guard: 355 pts

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone, 1 Combi-Melta, Power Fist

- 1 TDA, 1 Cyclone

- Bolters, 1 Power Fist, 2 Combi-Meltas

- Drop Pod

 

Fast // 2 Typhoon: 180 pts

 

Heavy Support // 6 Long Fangs: 175 pts

- 3 Missile Launchers, 2 Multi-Meltas, Drop Pod

 

2500 pts

 

11 Meltaguns (8 are Combi)

4 Multi-Meltas

20 Missile Launchers

2 Heavy Flamers

 

Assign each of the Combi-Melta Cyclones to the Grey Hunter packs (allowing them to drop in with two Melta shots and Kraks on Side armor, and the ability to put out long ranged firepower on the move every subsequent turn (so they can keep the pressure on while moving for objectives). Wolf Guard packs can either advance up on foot while shooting, or be held in Reserve with Pods (if the scenario/opponent/situation is in your favor to Reserve).

 

Logan joins Long Fangs to make them Relentless, either advancing with the rest of the Wolf Guard (giving you a mobile walking firebase) or Podding in. Dreadnoughts drop in to either Flame squads or Multi-Melta vehicles early in. Land Speeders support.

 

Similar style as your list, but better long ranged firepower at the sacrifice of marginal close range. What it gains in mobile long-ranged firepower though far surpasses yours and while it sacrifices some of its initial "punch" (depending on which Pods are chosen to drop in and if any units are walking instead of Podding in, this can be offset), this list does better because it's more flexible when it comes to application of firepower (close or long range).

 

In addition, don't forget that Logan's Saga of Majesty allows all friendly Morale checks within 12" to be re-rolled, keeping your units in the fight longer, and the ability to give every friendly unit within 12" or 18" (I forget which, I think it's 18") +1 Attack is an amazing ability not to be underestimated.

 

Granted, the army will have less close combat emphasis (because it lacks Ragnar's Furious Assault abilities/aura), but it's far more flexible (and Logan adds to the army whether in combat or not, while Ragnar does not).

 

EDIT:

 

As for addressing the reduction in bodies, your army has:

 

60 Infantry (all Power Armor)

9 Drop Pods (5 which have to arrive first turn, any empty pods means units are stuck walking and contributing nothing because you have no long range firepower on them)

4 Land Speeders

1 Dreadnought

 

 

My list has:

 

61 Infantry (7 Terminators, 54 Power Armor)

9 Drop Pods (again, 5 arrive first turn; Dreadnoughts will always drop, and you can alternate Podding or walking with any of the other units because they are all capable of providing long range firepower on the move)

2 Land Speeders

2 Dreadnoughts

 

 

DV8

[old git]

Some good points raised but most seem centered on 2k+ points where it would appear the options for alternatives are greater. Here is the list I took for those interested;

 

Rune Priest - chooser, jaws and lightning

5 scouts - melta, wulfen

4 w/guard: TDA and claws, fist/c-melta (scouts), power weapon, power weapon

4 x 8 hunters - standard, melta, p/weapon, wulfen. 2 in rhinos, 2 in crusaders

10 hunters on foot - 2 x plasma, p/weapon, standard, wulfen (objective sitting)

2 crusaders - MM, extra armour

 

1847

 

The basic plan was to hold home or near my table edge objectives with the foot hunters and scouts if necessary and send everything else off to kill the enemy, using the raiders as mobile cover for the rhinos. As noted earlier, sometimes I made it, mostly not. Some long range support would have helped.

[Blacksad]

probably could have done better if the xtra armour on crusaders and CCW on objective sitters had been used for a Land Speeder w/ MM (or heavy flamer and MM, but then you'd have to pinch out 10 more pts, only place I see is the standard in the objectivesitter)

 

LandSpeeder with MM and HF would be fairly good for taking out the opponent's Long range fire support, or at least disrupting it for a turn, which with the assaultreach of a Landraider, should be enough... problem there is: will he deepstrike fast enough?

[DV8]

It's because you have points wasted in useless units that don't contribute much and are far too easy to kill (re: not one, but two Land Raider Crusaders). Also, you NEED long ranged firepower. Unless you can get to the enemy fast (you can't) and are packing a ton of close-ranged firepower and close combat power (you aren't), you need to compensate for the lack of Long Fangs by including alternative units that still give you that ranged firepower your army needs.

 

Units like Land Speeder Tornadoes (MM and HF), Land Speeder Typhoons (stick with HBs and keep them at that magic 36" range against infantry, and 48" against vehicles), Auto-Las Predators, Dreadnoughts, etc.

 

Also, why no Power Fists? Power Weapons are all well and good, but sometimes you need that extra punch in combat to take on the tough things (Dreadnoughts, Monstrous Creatures, ID'ing other characters, etc.

 

Rune Priest - chooser, jaws and lightning

 

It's not bad. I prefer two Priests at 1850 (not too pricey either) with a mix-up of powers for some variation and for additional flexibility. I typically take Jaws and Hurricane, and Jaws and Tempest's Wrath. But this set up isn't bad.

 

5 scouts - melta, wulfen

 

Staple unit. Not a fan of the Wulfen but it's inexpensive enough not to be a big deal. If I needed to find points somewhere though, this would be the first thing I dropped.

 

4 w/guard: TDA and claws, fist/c-melta (scouts), power weapon, power weapon

 

Really? You're 1 Wolf Guard shy of that fifth and taking TDA and Cyclones! Even if he's attached to the objective squad, they can at least contribute to the battle instead of wasting your points! The Scouts WG is good, but I think the rest are poopies. Grey Hunter Wolf Guard should get Power Fists and a Combi-Weapon of some sorts (I prefer Combi-Flamers for flexibility, some people like to double up and take Combi-Meltas.

 

4 x 8 hunters - standard, melta, p/weapon, wulfen. 2 in rhinos, 2 in crusaders

 

Standards and Meltas are good, Wulfen (same reasoning as Scouts) and Power Weapons (debatable, depends what you need/want the unit to do) not so much. Wulfen for one squad is superfluous, taking it for every squad is kind of excessive. That's 75 points you've invested that could be spent elsewhere! 135 if you drop the Power Weapons too (that can almost buy you some Land Speeder Typhoons!)

 

For transports, stick with Rhinos, Razors, or Drop Pods.

 

10 hunters on foot - 2 x plasma, p/weapon, standard, wulfen (objective sitting)

 

Why? Grey Hunters are one of the best basic troop units in the game and excel in the close range (12" to 24"). Why would you waste almost 200 points just to objective-sit, with a unit who's maximum range is 24"? This unit should be in a Rhino and supporting the rest of your army!

 

2 crusaders - MM, extra armour

 

Drop these two like a bad habit.

 

1847

 

 

DV8

[old git]

A lot of my army selection depended on models available. I don't have speeders, preds or dreads for my wolves (I have a large-ish Red Scorpions collection which include those) so wanted a bit of variety. I suppose I should clarify a little about the long fang thing. It wasn't just fangs I wanted to try alternatives to, it was more to try and get as much close up stuff as possible in my force so I went for alternatives to long range support altogether, ie no preds, dreads etc. You learn more from defeat than from victory so I'll take the lessons back to my Hold.

 

Points I do agree on; too much investment in the 'raiders. The foot slogging hunters didn't do much so they need re-arranging.

 

Other than that, I like my hunters set up. The variety of threats they can face (and have done) with some confidence makes them a staple in my selections. Back to the drawing board it is.

[Blacksad]

donnu, but even splitting the 10 man plasma squad up into 2 5man plasmasquads might have been nice... one defends a home objective, the other rushes to another one under cover of the approaching army forces the opponent to split his attention between 2 units, and allows you to go for 2 seperate objectives while your main force tackles the enemy...