Psychotroke Grenades :-P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It could all come down to a war of escalation. Pyskotropic grenades always work the first round of a fresh combat whether or not you've charged. If it comes down to Paladin versus Paladin or simply GK versus GK would you opt not to use them? Of course pysk out grenades pretty much win it for the GK squad that charges. You still might get lucky though if your opponent rolls the dreaded 6.

 

G :lol:

[Crynn]

It could all come down to a war of escalation. Pyskotropic grenades always work the first round of a fresh combat whether or not you've charged. If it comes down to Paladin versus Paladin or simply GK versus GK would you opt not to use them? Of course pysk out grenades pretty much win it for the GK squad that charges. You still might get lucky though if your opponent rolls the dreaded 6.

 

G :lol:

 

6 is by far not the worst result in many case. If youare up against marines with a reasonable combat unit or even normal grey knights it barely does anything. so 1/3 of their guys atack themselves except you hit them with halbards and guess which models they remove? The ones that failed their check. 6 is ok but a roll of a 2 is clearly the best. Reducing the enemy to i1 is also amazing especially gk vs gk when you are charged, at least then you are both at i1 so you have countered the. Re-rolls to hit is nice as well, the hardest part of combat for gks as they normal have str 5+ and ignore saves.

 

The 6 comes into its own versus orks where 13 boys attak themselves sure you kil 5 or 6 of them but thats still 7 that attack orks and not you. Also, what is really good at killing orks in combat? Orks! haha

[Vindicatus]

In my eyes, Psychotroks are extremely versatile. They might do nothing...or they might completely flip the tide for you, and I agree, 6 is by far not the 'greatest threat' you have to worry about.

 

Example :

 

Fighting a Khornate Daemon player, and he brings his Bloodthirster to bear on my GMGK and his unit of paladins. I say "screw it" and charge, knowing that it was either charge him, or take a flanking charge in return from a probably-soon-to-be-freed-up group of Blood Crushers. My problem? I'm going to eat it in either case because of that silly Collar they gives models a +2 invulnerable save versus force weapons.

 

Paladins charge with the GM, grenade goes off, effect? The Bloodthirster is effectively LD2 for the rest of the assault phase. Great. Roll attacks, do 18-something wounds (I rolled really well), 17 wounds saved thanks to that collar.

 

Oh but wait, roll for daemonbane! He took a wound from a forceweapon, and thus has to make a leadership check (at LD2) or be 'removed as a casualty'. Rolls, fails, removed, counter-charge next turn into the back of the blood crushers and win the day.

 

Long and the short of it is that the most 'useless' effects have unexpected benefits.

[Crynn]

haha paladins with psychotorkes versus demons is just lol, i have coteaz in mine as well, its pretty much a lolfest if thats even a word, you cant even try to loose. I have a banisher in a landraider to boot. But man psychotrokes, charged 8 TH/SS termies knowing a would take a few casualties but it was better than being charged rolled a 2 and well, they all dissapeared, 15 points well spent. It's a 1/6 of winning any combat.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Red Lost Soldier]

I've been taking Psychotroke grenades on my GM, and they either do give me a ridiculous leg up in combat, or fail miserably. Usually the latter. Most things I face in combat are fearless, which means half the table is almost out. The '6' results is useless when you are striking first as the enemy can take the affected models off first. '2' is by far the best, and I think the reason they are so good.

 

Case in point, went to a tournament last weekend. First game charged an Avatar with 5 GKT + GM + Psycho, rolled a '2' and smashed him. Then Harlequins charged me and I rolled another '2' and smashed them. The other 5 games in the tournament, across at least as many combat psycho rolls, not a single thing happened for them.

 

The guard blob is probably one of the best targets against them, as you have pointed out due to most rolls still being useful. Against many opponents only the '2' or '3' results is actually worth it. There are small situational benefits to the obscure rolls, as is with everything in this game.

 

Is it any different to initiative 10, extra strength + ap in combat, or anything that a crazy librarian can do? Oh yeah, less reliable. How about guaranteed re rolls from a chaplain or equivalent?

 

I'm not saying they are not good, they obviously are. The variability in their results means that they aren't simply unstoppable however.

 

As to psych-out grenades, they only work against the Justicar.

[Crynn]

That is incorrect regarding the psych-out grenades only work on the justicar as it is not a psychic based test or attack which is what brotherhood of psykers rule refers to. The whole unit counts as one psycker but that does not stop psych-out grenades effecting the whole unit even if its classified as one psycker. The rule specifically states only attacks regarding psykers target the justicar.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[jeffersonian000]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

[Crynn]

No im saying psychout grenades effect the entire grey knight unit not jsut the justicar as someone else stated. ig gk charge gk, then the unit recieving the charge is i1 for all models.

[Chengar Qordath]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

[Crynn]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Chengar Qordath]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

Emperor preserve us; not this argument again :confused:

 

Suffice to say, common English language definition would make Psyk out grenades an attack, and since nothing in the Codex or BRB gives a specific definition of what constitutes an attack, then we got with with the standard definition. Arguing semantics is a massive pain when GW never defines its terms.

[Crynn]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

Emperor preserve us; not this argument again :confused:

 

Suffice to say, common English language definition would make Psyk out grenades an attack, and since nothing in the Codex or BRB gives a specific definition of what constitutes an attack, then we got with with the standard definition. Arguing semantics is a massive pain when GW never defines its terms.

 

God are you serious? Its a negative buff not an attack. That is like saying doom cast from a farseer is an attack? This is beyond just semantics it is common sense. The grenades work fine reducing the whole unit to i1. See if you can find 1 T.O to agree otherwise.

[Chengar Qordath]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

Emperor preserve us; not this argument again :confused:

 

Suffice to say, common English language definition would make Psyk out grenades an attack, and since nothing in the Codex or BRB gives a specific definition of what constitutes an attack, then we got with with the standard definition. Arguing semantics is a massive pain when GW never defines its terms.

 

God are you serious? Its a negative buff not an attack. That is like saying doom cast from a farseer is an attack? This is beyond just semantics it is common sense. The grenades work fine reducing the whole unit to i1. See if you can find 1 T.O to agree otherwise.

It's an enemy action that inflicts harm upon the unit; sounds like an attack to me.

[jeffersonian000]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

 

Well, again, last time I checked, Psych-Out grenades are assault grenades, with an effect that is taken into account during an attack. Which means they are used as part of an attack, which means they are an attack, which means the rules we were given to govern how to deal with such a specific attack should be followed. I call BS on the argument that grenade are not an attack.

 

Want a list of other grenades that are attacks? Krak grenades, Melta Bombs, Grenade Launchers, etc.

 

SJ

[Crynn]

So Crynn, you are stating that Psych-out grenades do not target psykers? Then what effect do they have against non-psykers?

 

Last I checked, Psych-Out grenades only targets pskers for its effect, and in a Brotherhood of Psyker squad, any effect targeting a psyker is directed to a single model rather than the whole group. This would mean the Psych-out grenades use against a GK squad would only effect the upgrade character or a random model if no upgrade character is present.

 

SJ

Seconded. Brotherhood of Osykers covers anything that specifically targets Psykers. Psyj-out grenades specifically target Psykers.

 

Except that is says nothing of the sort. It cover leadership tests, perils and any ATTACKS that specifically target psychers. The grenade is not an attack.

 

Regards,

Crynn

Emperor preserve us; not this argument again :confused:

 

Suffice to say, common English language definition would make Psyk out grenades an attack, and since nothing in the Codex or BRB gives a specific definition of what constitutes an attack, then we got with with the standard definition. Arguing semantics is a massive pain when GW never defines its terms.

 

God are you serious? Its a negative buff not an attack. That is like saying doom cast from a farseer is an attack? This is beyond just semantics it is common sense. The grenades work fine reducing the whole unit to i1. See if you can find 1 T.O to agree otherwise.

It's an enemy action that inflicts harm upon the unit; sounds like an attack to me.

 

It doesnt inflict harm? haha I can't argue with this. it causes effects that make it easier to AHRM you before you get the chance to harm the opponent back but it doesn't cause harm. In that case movement is an attack because I can move into a better position to remove your cover saves. Oh no it's easier to cause you dmg, must ahve been an attack move I made. Like I said go find a TO to tell that too.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I'd call knocking someone down to initiative 1 pretty darn harmful.

[Vindicatus]

Things I am not doing when I am lobbing an explosive device into your face:

1. Making the interstellar sign for peace.

2. Ordering pizza.

3. Asking you on a date.

 

Common responses to having an explosive device lobbed in one's face :

1. Prepare for fisticuffs.

2. Open fire (nominally followed by a reload, and another session of 'Open fire').

 

 

Because of GW's wordfail in defining what abilities (some Daemon powers still irk me about this, too) constitute as an attack, whether or not they inflict casualties in their nature, I agree that we have to fall back on the staple of the good ol' English language in the definition of what an attack would be, and in this case, the Justicar sits at I1, not the unit.

[dswanick]

Personally, I'd call knocking someone down to initiative 1 pretty darn harmful.

Things I am not doing when I am lobbing an explosive device into your face:

1. Making the interstellar sign for peace.

2. Ordering pizza.

3. Asking you on a date.

 

Common responses to having an explosive device lobbed in one's face :

1. Prepare for fisticuffs.

2. Open fire (nominally followed by a reload, and another session of 'Open fire').

 

 

Because of GW's wordfail in defining what abilities (some Daemon powers still irk me about this, too) constitute as an attack, whether or not they inflict casualties in their nature, I agree that we have to fall back on the staple of the good ol' English language in the definition of what an attack would be, and in this case, the Justicar sits at I1, not the unit.

Great, then I expect both of you to play by the rules and not apply the grenades "attack" until the models initiative order is reached and count the grenade use as the special close combat weapon you're using thus don't apply any wounds in that round of combat. :P

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I'd call knocking someone down to initiative 1 pretty darn harmful.

Things I am not doing when I am lobbing an explosive device into your face:

1. Making the interstellar sign for peace.

2. Ordering pizza.

3. Asking you on a date.

 

Common responses to having an explosive device lobbed in one's face :

1. Prepare for fisticuffs.

2. Open fire (nominally followed by a reload, and another session of 'Open fire').

 

 

Because of GW's wordfail in defining what abilities (some Daemon powers still irk me about this, too) constitute as an attack, whether or not they inflict casualties in their nature, I agree that we have to fall back on the staple of the good ol' English language in the definition of what an attack would be, and in this case, the Justicar sits at I1, not the unit.

Great, then I expect both of you to play by the rules and not apply the grenades "attack" until the models initiative order is reached and count the grenade use as the special close combat weapon you're using thus don't apply any wounds in that round of combat. :P

That's not the way grenades work; they take effect before any cc attacks are launched, and are not cc weapons. But I imagine you already knew that.

 

Stabbing something with a sword is an attack. So is hitting with a grenade. GKs get to do both.

[dswanick]

Personally, I'd call knocking someone down to initiative 1 pretty darn harmful.

Things I am not doing when I am lobbing an explosive device into your face:

1. Making the interstellar sign for peace.

2. Ordering pizza.

3. Asking you on a date.

 

Common responses to having an explosive device lobbed in one's face :

1. Prepare for fisticuffs.

2. Open fire (nominally followed by a reload, and another session of 'Open fire').

 

 

Because of GW's wordfail in defining what abilities (some Daemon powers still irk me about this, too) constitute as an attack, whether or not they inflict casualties in their nature, I agree that we have to fall back on the staple of the good ol' English language in the definition of what an attack would be, and in this case, the Justicar sits at I1, not the unit.

Great, then I expect both of you to play by the rules and not apply the grenades "attack" until the models initiative order is reached and count the grenade use as the special close combat weapon you're using thus don't apply any wounds in that round of combat. :P

That's not the way grenades work; they take effect before any cc attacks are launched, and are not cc weapons. But I imagine you already knew that.

 

Stabbing something with a sword is an attack. So is hitting with a grenade. GKs get to do both.

Then perhaps you should read the rules about close combat Attacks and Special Weapons. If the grenade is an attack it does not happen before Initiative order, because attacks are resolved in Initiative order. If grenades are an attack, then they clearly count as Special Close Combat weapons in which case they must be chosen as the SCCW you are "attacking" with and without a Strength score cause no wounds on hits. You can't have your cake and eat it too. These are clearly defined mechanics of the Assault Phase.

[Chengar Qordath]

Then perhaps you should read the rules about close combat Attacks and Special Weapons. If the grenade is an attack it does not happen before Initiative order, because attacks are resolved in Initiative order. If grenades are an attack, then they clearly count as Special Close Combat weapons in which case they must be chosen as the SCCW you are "attacking" with and without a Strength score cause no wounds on hits. You can't have your cake and eat it too. These are clearly defined mechanics of the Assault Phase.

Once again, you're proceeding on the assumption that grenades are close combat weapons used to make close combat attacks. They aren't. Not being close combat weapons used to make close combat attacks does not mean that they do not make an attack, it's just not a close combat attack with a close combat weapon following the close combat rules.

[Vindicatus]

Grenades as such fall into neither category, as GW has failed to define what they really are, other than what it said in the fluff of the frag grenade, in that it's 'hurled before an assault to drive the foe deeper into cover'.

 

Generally speaking, something that peppers the your intended target (the unit; OH SNAP, GRENADES THAT TARGET) of an assault with tiny metal barbs or shrouds the area with a confusing psyko-reactive chaff is an attack, clear cut and simple. Even if that attack is merely a pre-empt to the main attack. :D

[Chengar Qordath]

Grenades as such fall into neither category, as GW has failed to define what they really are, other than what it said in the fluff of the frag grenade, in that it's 'hurled before an assault to drive the foe deeper into cover'.

That's pretty much been a running problem for 40k; GW doesn't do a very good job of defining its terms, which why we get arguments like what is and isn't an attack.

[jhrovii]

I thought an Attack was part of a model's statline, a targeted ability, or psychic power? Grenades are just a status modifier game-wise and are not targetable except against vehicles and walkers.

 

Of course throwing a grenade at someone is an "attack" but so is sending a company of Grey Knights after one certain enemy psyker. Words have multiple uses so it's best to think of their use in the abstract context of game rules and not their fluffy rationalizations.

[dswanick]

Then perhaps you should read the rules about close combat Attacks and Special Weapons. If the grenade is an attack it does not happen before Initiative order, because attacks are resolved in Initiative order. If grenades are an attack, then they clearly count as Special Close Combat weapons in which case they must be chosen as the SCCW you are "attacking" with and without a Strength score cause no wounds on hits. You can't have your cake and eat it too. These are clearly defined mechanics of the Assault Phase.

Once again, you're proceeding on the assumption that grenades are close combat weapons used to make close combat attacks. They aren't. Not being close combat weapons used to make close combat attacks does not mean that they do not make an attack, it's just not a close combat attack with a close combat weapon following the close combat rules.

OK, so if grenades are not a close combat weapons used to make a close combat attack - then what are they? And on what rules basis do you decide to define them as "attacks" and claim a defense against their "attack" when you, yourself, claim they are not attacks? Let me answer that question : Grenades are wargear which produces an effect. Most grenades also have a special rule which allows them to be used in close combat as an attack against vehicles. Why do they need special permission to be used as an attack against vehicles if they are already "an attack". You have to remember, the rules are very clear on when and how you are allowed to make attacks - in the Shooting Phase and in the Assault Phase - and both types of attacks have clearly defined mechanics on how to resolve the attacks.

While it's all fine and dandy to use common english definitions to help clarify a term used in Warhammer 40,000 - it's reaching to conclude that grenades are attacks per the BRB simply because they "affect the worth of an object". But this discussion is off-topic to the thread. The aforementioned thread discussing this issue is elsewhere in the +OR+ forum and the appropriate place to debate this issue.