Chengar Qordath Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I thought an Attack was part of a model's statline, a targeted ability, or psychic power? Grenades are just a status modifier game-wise and are not targetable except against vehicles and walkers. Aside from the Attack model stat, the BRB has no definition of what is or isn't an attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2861933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 It's not that hard to figure out - seriously. If they had to define everything the BRB would probably several volumes and we all know that ain't gonna happen. G ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2861981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 But this discussion is off-topic to the thread. The aforementioned thread discussing this issue is elsewhere in the +OR+ forum and the appropriate place to debate this issue. Yeah; if we really want to debate the issue again, let's just bump the thread on OR. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 We already had this discussion in the OR though. What goes for psyk-out grenades vs GK should also go for these grenades as well. (If memory serves, the OR peeps agreed the whole unit was reduced to I1...not only the Justicar.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Thanks for that. :) G :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 We already had this discussion in the OR though. What goes for psyk-out grenades vs GK should also go for these grenades as well. (If memory serves, the OR peeps agreed the whole unit was reduced to I1...not only the Justicar.) Actually, from what I recall of that thread, the main thing we agreed on was that GW should add a glossary to the next BRB to solve issues like this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 We already had this discussion in the OR though. What goes for psyk-out grenades vs GK should also go for these grenades as well. (If memory serves, the OR peeps agreed the whole unit was reduced to I1...not only the Justicar.) Actually, from what I recall of that thread, the main thing we agreed on was that GW should add a glossary to the next BRB to solve issues like this. Haha, fair enough. Here's the thread, for everybody's reference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 We already had this discussion in the OR though. What goes for psyk-out grenades vs GK should also go for these grenades as well. (If memory serves, the OR peeps agreed the whole unit was reduced to I1...not only the Justicar.) Who would have thought. Common sense prevailed. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 We already had this discussion in the OR though. What goes for psyk-out grenades vs GK should also go for these grenades as well. (If memory serves, the OR peeps agreed the whole unit was reduced to I1...not only the Justicar.) Who would have thought. Common sense prevailed. Regards, Crynn As Chengar Qordath said, there never was any consensus. We just got tired of arguing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueTraderX Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 In my eyes, Psychotroks are extremely versatile. They might do nothing...or they might completely flip the tide for you, and I agree, 6 is by far not the 'greatest threat' you have to worry about. Example : Fighting a Khornate Daemon player, and he brings his Bloodthirster to bear on my GMGK and his unit of paladins. I say "screw it" and charge, knowing that it was either charge him, or take a flanking charge in return from a probably-soon-to-be-freed-up group of Blood Crushers. My problem? I'm going to eat it in either case because of that silly Collar they gives models a +2 invulnerable save versus force weapons. Paladins charge with the GM, grenade goes off, effect? The Bloodthirster is effectively LD2 for the rest of the assault phase. Great. Roll attacks, do 18-something wounds (I rolled really well), 17 wounds saved thanks to that collar. Oh but wait, roll for daemonbane! He took a wound from a forceweapon, and thus has to make a leadership check (at LD2) or be 'removed as a casualty'. Rolls, fails, removed, counter-charge next turn into the back of the blood crushers and win the day. Long and the short of it is that the most 'useless' effects have unexpected benefits. Hey now! I'm pretty sure blood crushers don't have collars of Khorne, only Fleshhounds and the Bloodthirster do. The answer to collars (or any daemonic gift) is Dark Excommunication. It was able to remove bloodcrushers armor save and power weapons for me at 'ard boyz. I would never buy this power for a Librarian, but it comes with Coteaz and Dreadknights =) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :lol: Indeed; the only thing that keeps it from being completely broken is that aside from Dreadknights it won't show up very often in an all-comers list, since it's wasted points against any non-Chaos opponent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicatus Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Aye, I know Bloodcrushers don't have it, however, it was either take a charge from a full unit of them, or the Thirster, and I've had back luck with 'Crushers in combat in the past. That and it was a 'dare to be stupid' moment. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2862626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueTraderX Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 No one wants to take a charge from either of those, psychotroke or not! I'm glad I looked up Coteaz's powers before the game against Daemons, it's easy to forget he's got it. The daemon player actually had to look up what all counted as gifts, and to his chagrin it was pretty much everything good they have! Coteaz is a trade-off, he's got the Henchmen, and the very situational dark excommunication, but takes an HQ slot that could go to a pychotroke or rad caddy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :P Indeed; the only thing that keeps it from being completely broken is that aside from Dreadknights it won't show up very often in an all-comers list, since it's wasted points against any non-Chaos opponent. I don't understand why people don't take it. Sure it only works against 1 opponent but it completely screws them. Would you pay 5 points to remove furious charge from blood angels that assault you, and another 5 to stop the waaagh from orks? Of course you would. It's 5 points that means it is very difficult to loose a game against a certain army type. If it was 20 I'd understand. I never leave home without it either with coteaz or I librarian. I think if you have a lib you can find the 5 points. My 1750 even has a banisher in it, what do you know, I play 15 points underhanded against some armies though the banisher works against some chaos, eldar and dark eldar units but I played a fate cruher list the other day and tabled him after only loosing 3 models it was a joke. All because I had a banisher and dark ex. I think people understimate it's power for what it costs. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Sry double post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :P Indeed; the only thing that keeps it from being completely broken is that aside from Dreadknights it won't show up very often in an all-comers list, since it's wasted points against any non-Chaos opponent. I don't understand why people don't take it. Sure it only works against 1 opponent but it completely screws them. Would you pay 5 points to remove furious charge from blood angels that assault you, and another 5 to stop the washy from orks? Of course you would. It's 5 points that means it is very difficult to loose a game against a certain army type. If it was 20 I'd understand. I never leave home without it either with coteaz or I librarian. I think if you have a lib you can find the 5 points. My 1750 even has a banished in it, what do you know I play 15 points underhanded against some armies though the banished works against some chaos eldar and dark eldar units but I play a fate cruher list the other day and tabled him after only loosing 3 models it wa a joke. All because I had a banisher and dark ex. I think people inderstimate it's power for what it costs. Regards, Crynn I think the main reason is that Chaos Demons aren't a very common army; until recently, nobody in my area played them at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :P Indeed; the only thing that keeps it from being completely broken is that aside from Dreadknights it won't show up very often in an all-comers list, since it's wasted points against any non-Chaos opponent. I don't understand why people don't take it. Sure it only works against 1 opponent but it completely screws them. Would you pay 5 points to remove furious charge from blood angels that assault you, and another 5 to stop the washy from orks? Of course you would. It's 5 points that means it is very difficult to loose a game against a certain army type. If it was 20 I'd understand. I never leave home without it either with coteaz or I librarian. I think if you have a lib you can find the 5 points. My 1750 even has a banished in it, what do you know I play 15 points underhanded against some armies though the banished works against some chaos eldar and dark eldar units but I play a fate cruher list the other day and tabled him after only loosing 3 models it wa a joke. All because I had a banisher and dark ex. I think people inderstimate it's power for what it costs. Regards, Crynn Agreed. It's highly situational, true, but if there's any chance you might be fighting Daemons it's a no-brainer to find the 5 points for this power (provided you're taking a libby anyway). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah that power really screws over daemons hard. G :P Indeed; the only thing that keeps it from being completely broken is that aside from Dreadknights it won't show up very often in an all-comers list, since it's wasted points against any non-Chaos opponent. I don't understand why people don't take it. Sure it only works against 1 opponent but it completely screws them. Would you pay 5 points to remove furious charge from blood angels that assault you, and another 5 to stop the washy from orks? Of course you would. It's 5 points that means it is very difficult to loose a game against a certain army type. If it was 20 I'd understand. I never leave home without it either with coteaz or I librarian. I think if you have a lib you can find the 5 points. My 1750 even has a banished in it, what do you know I play 15 points underhanded against some armies though the banished works against some chaos eldar and dark eldar units but I play a fate cruher list the other day and tabled him after only loosing 3 models it wa a joke. All because I had a banisher and dark ex. I think people inderstimate it's power for what it costs. Regards, Crynn Agreed. It's highly situational, true, but if there's any chance you might be fighting Daemons it's a no-brainer to find the 5 points for this power (provided you're taking a libby anyway). Oh i completely agree I wouldn't get a lib just to take it just if you have the option at only 5 points on an exsisting model. On a side note I should never type on my phone again, spelling mistakes from hitting wrong buttons auto correct making waagh into washy? haha, apologies. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2863593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Lost Soldier Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 My apologies for derailing the thread. Did not realise it was a contentious issue. Having read the linked thread I see cases for both sides. I'm still on the side that the grenades trigger the targeting of psykers rule in BoP, but it is something that does not seem to have a definite answer for at this stage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2865816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 The only reason I dislike the 'trokes is I'm not a fan of random abilities. I don't want to run into a CC and have a 1 in 6 chance of IWIN or a 5 in 6 chance of my upgrade doing nothing. <_< Randomness FTL. And it should never be the balance for powerful potency... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2866034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshrug Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 If it makes you feel better, the Psychotroke grenades were huge overkill against a bunch of Guardsmen, even if there were like 30 of them. Unless Straken, Yarrick, and a couple of Tech Priests were in the clump, they weren't going to hurt those GKs/henchmen anyway. That said, those grenades're still pretty ridiculous. Like most things in that codex (though the split between good-ridiculous and bad-ridiculous is fairly even). -Stormshrug Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237260-psychotroke-grenades-p/page/3/#findComment-2866151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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