Land Raiders in 1750 points?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I was thinking of working on a 1750 point list that had three Land Raiders in it for transports for my Assault Squad is this a good idea or am I paying alot for something that isn't alot. And my track record with Land Raiders is awesome they rarely get wrecked if anything in a game.

[thade]

I wouldn't take that many Raiders at 1750, but that's just me. I'd personally cap it at two, using remaining points to put more marines on the table.

 

In my mind, a Raider has one main benefit: it soaks a good amount of fire that would otherwise kill troops. Land Raiders are intimidating even when not considering whatever payload it has because it's AV14 and typically has a healthy amount of fire power mounted on it...not to mention it's huge. Huge has a double benefit: psychological impact and LOS-coverage for your other units. All of this means the LR soaks a lot of fire until it goes down: typically so much so that troops which are embarked in other transports or even slogging/jumping benefit from its presence.

 

On top of that, your troops inside have slightly improved assault threat range (all Raiders have assault ramps, two of them have frag launchers as well) with the 2" disembark added to the 12" full move + 6" assault move that they'd ordinarily have with jump packs. It's a very popular delivery system for Terminator assault squads, which dramatically increases how scary the Raider is (and the amount of fire your opponent will be willing to focus on it early).

 

If you take two, you're kicking in Lancaster's Square Law: now your opponent has two very scary vehicles to deal with, meaning they have to budget their usage of combi-meltas (very popular one-shot devices used on that single Land Raider) and the general survival rate of your troops will be further bolstered as your opponent focuses on Land Raiders.

 

Savvy opponents will recognize that Land Raiders + Terminator assault squads = far less Troops for you, and they'll likely take advantage of it, tying up or flat out ignoring your Land Raiders as they pick off your small number of Scoring units. By taking Assault or Tactical squads in Land Raiders instead, you mitigate this a good deal.

 

If you take three, it's true that they become even more powerful, but you're severely cutting down on how many troops you can take (each LR costs a noticeable chunk more than a full, kitted out unit) and I'm worried that's the point where you'll begin to suffer for it. This last bit is just theory though: possibly you'll find that most lists at 1750 can't deal with that much AV 14 and your list will do very well.

 

If I were to field three Land Raiders, I'd put Assault squads in two of them (and make them both LRCs or one of them an LRR) and a tactical squad in the third (a Phobos) for back-field objective holding and ranged anti-tank support. Though I suppose it's more exciting to go with three assault squads and press forward. I can see merit to that plan as well.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I really have found it that even at 1850 and with 2 Land Raiders my oppenents seem to not have what is needed to kill the Land Raiders. And I did in a 1000 point game but Ragnar and PA Wolf Guard in a Land Raider. That was so fun. I havn't really planned the list out all the way but I am looking at a Tactical Squad in a Land Raider Phobo, Two assault Squads in a Redeemer and Crusader. Three Sangunary Priest. And some HQ and two or three Land Speeders. I think this wouldn't be a huge list but it would be scary it would be like a list with two Monoliths in it.

[SamaNagol]

Land Raider lists are a Rock Paper Scissors list. Space Wolves and Grey Knights probably wont have what it takes to get into them, but then you will have to deal with Dark Eldar lances and IG MeltaVets who will beat you.

 

2 would be the most I'd run. And even that is a big chunk of your list.

[Corby]

3-4 land raiders can easily be done at 1750 for blood angels. However as stated above me in this thread they've a number of glaring weaknesses (namely meltaguns which are popular as always in the metagame) If you're taking 3-4 land raiders you've to play a more defensive game with them however (the land raider with two twin-linked lascannons and heavy bolter works great for this) with several scoring units inside land raiders.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Why does anyone think Lances and Meltaguns are a sure thing. A Dark or Bright Lance still needs a 5+ to Pen that isn't that great. And Meltaguns you still need to be within 6" or 12" if you have a multi-melta to get the 2d6 and that still needs alittle more than 3+ per dice to Pen (its about 3.5 but you can't roll a .5 on the dice). That is almost a 50% chance. I had a Bloodthister take 5 turns to wrecks a Land Raider and it was 10 Str on the charge. So nothing is a sure thing other than Str 10 on a rear AV 10.

[SamaNagol]

1 isn't. But large volumes of them are. And IG and DE are prolific with them.

[Corby]

Why does anyone think Lances and Meltaguns are a sure thing. A Dark or Bright Lance still needs a 5+ to Pen that isn't that great. And Meltaguns you still need to be within 6" or 12" if you have a multi-melta to get the 2d6 and that still needs alittle more than 3+ per dice to Pen (its about 3.5 but you can't roll a .5 on the dice). That is almost a 50% chance. I had a Bloodthister take 5 turns to wrecks a Land Raider and it was 10 Str on the charge. So nothing is a sure thing other than Str 10 on a rear AV 10.

 

Melta is an incredibly common form of anti-tank , Lances not so much , however when your opponent masses both weapon types in such huge numbers (Ie Dark eldar lists with 25+ lance weapons , Imperial guard with melta veterans in chimeras , Eldar fire dragons , Eldar wave serpeants with bright lances , grey hunters with meltas in rhinos , space marine multi-melta landspeeders , sisters of battle exorcists , sisters of battle immolaters , chaos termicide , chaos obliterators , Deepstriking blood angels assault marines with meltaguns etc etc.) and with mech and mobility being a major factor in winning missions in 5th edition , most armies have several mobile forms of melta for dealing with a land raider. However What makes a land raider heavy army effective is if your opponent hasn't brought the tools to deal with several land raiders over the course of the game (Plus the heavy hitting assault units inside or what ever else is inside) they're at an extreme disadvantage.

 

 

Land Raider lists are a Rock Paper Scissors list. Space Wolves and Grey Knights probably wont have what it takes to get into them, but then you will have to deal with Dark Eldar lances and IG MeltaVets who will beat you.

 

2 would be the most I'd run. And even that is a big chunk of your list.

 

I dunno about space wolves and grey knights having trouble getting into land raiders , Space wolves have the tools to kill land raiders at close range with meltaguns in grey hunter packs and on wolf guards , Grey knights have so much rending S7 shooting that they're quite capable of bringing down land raiders with massed psycannon shots from purifiers , strike squads , grey knight terminators etc.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

At Ard Boyz this year at 2500 points I had an Imperial Guard guys almost shot everything almost every turn at my Land Raider that was blocking line of sight to the rhino holding the middle objective. He hit it will every Str 8, 9, and 10 shot including meltaguns at it and he only pulled off a Shaken one. And then again I have seen a lucky assault cannon shot rip apart one. I have seen Lascannons or a scattered Oribtal Broardment destroy a Land Raider first turn. I have seen a Monolith get hit and wrecked with a Melta off a drop podded Dread first turn. I am not saying that it will not happen its just harder to take a Land Raider down than what people think and I have had alot of oppenents make that mistake thinking they can blow the Land Raider to kingdom come on the first turn and then fail to do so for the whole game. (Don't get be wrong I have seen it done with the first shot of the game.) But this game is allot of chance and you just have to hope that your luckier than the other player.

[SamaNagol]

Your experience is a statistical anomaly and not one I would ever base a decision on.

 

/

 

Space Wolves have 1 meltagun in a squad plus a 1 shot combi melta. With probably 4 of those squads tops. That's not a large amount of reliable shots when dealing with AV14. They also have Lone Wolves with Chain Fists and ThunderWolf Lords with Thunder Hammers at S10. But again, they aren't the best ways of popping vehicles filled with nasty units like Furious Charging Assault Terminators or Death Company.

 

S7 Rending needs to roll a 6 and then a 3+ to pen. And even then it isn't AP1 so you have to roll a 5+ to wreck. Per 4 Psycannon shots you only have a proc rate of 0.15 wrecked or destroyed results. That's not too great either.

 

You need a lot of Melta or Lances to RELIABLY take down a Land Raider.

[Gop]

In 1750 I'd go max 2. As stated they are pretty hard to kill and anything with a chain fist etc. has to get close enough to use it. But if you take 3, as also mentioned, your scoring units suffer. Especially in tournaments I want to have minimum 3 scoring units (preferably 4) in addition to all your nasty toys.

[by_any_other_names]

There was a 6 landraider list running around.

 

(I only ever play 2 landraiders becouse that is all I own.)

[Brother_Byhlli]

There was a 6 landraider list running around.

 

(I only ever play 2 landraiders becouse that is all I own.)

 

Not at 1,750 points. ;)

 

You could fit five in, though.

 

Any thoughts on five scoring Land Raiders on the table at 1,750 points?

[Corby]

There was a 6 landraider list running around.

 

(I only ever play 2 landraiders becouse that is all I own.)

 

Not at 1,750 points. :D

 

You could fit five in, though.

 

Any thoughts on five scoring Land Raiders on the table at 1,750 points?

 

Not five , as you run out of points to add anything else to the army list. Four is certainly doable , however 3 would be ideal at 1750 as you've plenty of room for other stuff in the army list.

 

 

Space Wolves have 1 meltagun in a squad plus a 1 shot combi melta. With probably 4 of those squads tops. That's not a large amount of reliable shots when dealing with AV14. They also have Lone Wolves with Chain Fists and ThunderWolf Lords with Thunder Hammers at S10. But again, they aren't the best ways of popping vehicles filled with nasty units like Furious Charging Assault Terminators or Death Company.

 

S7 Rending needs to roll a 6 and then a 3+ to pen. And even then it isn't AP1 so you have to roll a 5+ to wreck. Per 4 Psycannon shots you only have a proc rate of 0.15 wrecked or destroyed results. That's not too great either.

 

You need a lot of Melta or Lances to RELIABLY take down a Land Raider.

 

Grey knights have plenty of psycannons in their armies to take down a Land Raider (10+ psycannons) , like wise Dark Eldar have plenty of lances to deal with Land raiders (25+ lances). As for 8 meltas not being enough to take down a land Raider , how many times have you played a game and a single lucky melta shot has brought your land raider down?

[Brother_Byhlli]

There was a 6 landraider list running around.

 

(I only ever play 2 landraiders becouse that is all I own.)

 

Not at 1,750 points. :D

 

You could fit five in, though.

 

Any thoughts on five scoring Land Raiders on the table at 1,750 points?

 

Not five , as you run out of points to add anything else to the army list. Four is certainly doable , however 3 would be ideal at 1750 as you've plenty of room for other stuff in the army list.

 

Librarian

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

5 scoring Land Raiders. 75 points left to spend for 1,750 points. What else do you need? :D

[Corby]

There was a 6 landraider list running around.

 

(I only ever play 2 landraiders becouse that is all I own.)

 

Not at 1,750 points. ^_^

 

You could fit five in, though.

 

Any thoughts on five scoring Land Raiders on the table at 1,750 points?

 

Not five , as you run out of points to add anything else to the army list. Four is certainly doable , however 3 would be ideal at 1750 as you've plenty of room for other stuff in the army list.

 

Librarian

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

 

Assault Squad

- 5 Space Marines

- Land Raider dedicated transport

5 scoring Land Raiders. 75 points left to spend for 1,750 points. What else do you need? :)

 

 

This is list has several hard-counters , (Dark eldar , Eldar fire dragons , Imperial guard , chaos obliterator lists with termicide etc etc) , as well as the list lacking other elements such as assault units , Fast moving melta , ability to deal with hordes ( choosing the redeemer pattern or crusader can help with this a bit , yet the long ranged anti-tank is hurt as a result) Not to mention that the list folds (In my opinion anyways) against armies that play aggresively against it that can close with melta units (as you've nothing to really deter them from closing with you)

[SamaNagol]

Grey knights have plenty of psycannons in their armies to take down a Land Raider (10+ psycannons) , like wise Dark Eldar have plenty of lances to deal with Land raiders (25+ lances). As for 8 meltas not being enough to take down a land Raider , how many times have you played a game and a single lucky melta shot has brought your land raider down?

 

When I see the word 'lucky' I know it isn't a valid argument. And that is 8 in the whole army, all somehow getting within 6" of a Raider.

 

Dark Eldar, as I said, carry enough Lances to deal with Raider spam. S7 Rending I have shown you is not a reliable way of getting through AV14 statistically. You need 2 Psycannons all firing in Heavy mode to even get 1 Rending shot. And even that isn't a guaranteed pen.

[Corby]

Grey knights have plenty of psycannons in their armies to take down a Land Raider (10+ psycannons) , like wise Dark Eldar have plenty of lances to deal with Land raiders (25+ lances). As for 8 meltas not being enough to take down a land Raider , how many times have you played a game and a single lucky melta shot has brought your land raider down?

 

When I see the word 'lucky' I know it isn't a valid argument. And that is 8 in the whole army, all somehow getting within 6" of a Raider.

 

Dark Eldar, as I said, carry enough Lances to deal with Raider spam. S7 Rending I have shown you is not a reliable way of getting through AV14 statistically. You need 2 Psycannons all firing in Heavy mode to even get 1 Rending shot. And even that isn't a guaranteed pen.

 

Playing experience should tell you that a lucky shot is all that it takes to ruin a land raider. Its very easy to state things like "X amount of melta weapons are required to wreck a land raider" , when first hard playing experience will prove to you that statistical averages arn't a gaurenteed thing when playing 40k , If they were I'd bring X special weapons and call it a day. Massed S7 rending will deal with landraiders. Grey knight builds which put out 20-40 psycannon shots a turn hurt land raiders.

 

As for the melta getting within 6" of a Land raider , while analyising units in a vaccum is a fruitless excercise ( as the rest of the army build , terrain set-up etc can dictate alot of factors) , Army builds with units in transports that push mid-field have a good chance of getting to a land raider (Such as grey hunters in rhinos , imperial guard in chimeras , 12" transport move , disembark "2 , melta range of 6" , for a total threat range of 20" to your land raider) If you're playing it defensively then it can be difficult to reach a land raider , but likely chances are that theres a big ol expensive combat unit in there waiting to push the mid-field.

[SamaNagol]

Again, I already said that MeltaVets would wreck face against a LR heavy list. The volume of Melta is sufficient to nigh on guarantee a crippled Raider

 

Please read the full thread as it is an ongoing discussion.

 

And I would still say that Psycannon are not enough. Psycannon and Autocannon is going to make up the entirety of the GK anti armour, and against multiple Raiders they haven't got the punch which is needed to get you dead Raiders like 8-10 Melta weapons can. GK find LR heavy builds difficult to open up.

 

AP 1 is a very important thing when it comes to destroying vehicles, not just good chances of getting through armour.

[Corby]

Again, I already said that MeltaVets would wreck face against a LR heavy list. The volume of Melta is sufficient to nigh on guarantee a crippled Raider

 

Please read the full thread as it is an ongoing discussion.

 

And I would still say that Psycannon are not enough. Psycannon and Autocannon is going to make up the entirety of the GK anti armour, and against multiple Raiders they haven't got the punch which is needed to get you dead Raiders like 8-10 Melta weapons can. GK find LR heavy builds difficult to open up.

 

AP 1 is a very important thing when it comes to destroying vehicles, not just good chances of getting through armour.

 

My point was refering to how melta units in transports can have quite a large threat range to Land raiders , and I was just listing melta vets as an example.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I went through a Lucifer Assault Force period for a while. It was fun the list did really well. At 1750 I was running 3 Land Raiders, 2 RAS, 1 Termie Assault Squad and a couple little bits and pieces to fill out my FoC.

 

It can work. I've played against a list with 24 meltas in it (or something like that) though I admit it wasnt a killer list. But I didnt lose a raider all game.

 

I also wouldnt take more then 1 LR: Phobos. The Crusader is a lot better and much more useful over all you cant win alot of ranged tank battles with Land Raiders. Mostly because theres alot of really good ranged weapons out there. Of course you have to be careful getting in close but hey you never know.

 

 

Lances really arent all that bad I usually only lose 1-2 Raiders at 2000pts vs. DE (and take a bunch of immobilized and stuff too but hey alright.)

[SamaNagol]

I am in complete agreement with you on that. But 1 meltagun and 1 combi-melta in a SW Rhino is less threatening than 3 or 4 Meltaguns in a IG or GK Chimera.

[Corby]

I went through a Lucifer Assault Force period for a while. It was fun the list did really well. At 1750 I was running 3 Land Raiders, 2 RAS, 1 Termie Assault Squad and a couple little bits and pieces to fill out my FoC.

 

It can work. I've played against a list with 24 meltas in it (or something like that) though I admit it wasnt a killer list. But I didnt lose a raider all game.

 

I also wouldnt take more then 1 LR: Phobos. The Crusader is a lot better and much more useful over all you cant win alot of ranged tank battles with Land Raiders. Mostly because theres alot of really good ranged weapons out there. Of course you have to be careful getting in close but hey you never know.

 

 

Lances really arent all that bad I usually only lose 1-2 Raiders at 2000pts vs. DE (and take a bunch of immobilized and stuff too but hey alright.)

 

Phobos pattern land raiders can win out in the long ranged game due to them being so tough to crack at long range , the ability to split fire onto two targets with twin linked lascannons means they can supress or destroy two vehicles a turn ( Destroying two transports if you're lucky anyways , more likely you'll supress two transports) . Melta , massed rending shooting and blasters (all of which is short-mid ranged) is what really kills land raiders. But as you said the crusader and redeemer patterns are suited to a more aggresive approach , so if you're not planning on sitting back and shooting , The crusader or redeemer would be a better idea.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Playing experience should tell you that a lucky shot is all that it takes to ruin a land raider.

 

This isn't an argument.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Phobos pattern land raiders can win out in the long ranged game due to them being so tough to crack at long range , the ability to split fire onto two targets with twin linked lascannons means they can supress or destroy two vehicles a turn ( Destroying two transports if you're lucky anyways , more likely you'll supress two transports) . Melta , massed rending shooting and blasters (all of which is short-mid ranged) is what really kills land raiders. But as you said the crusader and redeemer patterns are suited to a more aggresive approach , so if you're not planning on sitting back and shooting , The crusader or redeemer would be a better idea.

 

The real long ranged duelists though are going to have an easy time cracking those raiders at range.

 

Str 9 lances, railguns, Manticores, medusa, Lascannon spam. They all have a more pleasurable time firing at Raiders then Raiders have trying to survive and smack them back.

 

The Crusader also provides you with key Anti Infantry that helps to spread out the smaller man power you have. AND they still pack excellent anti tank.

 

Remember against guard, DE and Tau (Which are really the armies that you are going to be tempted to range due lwith) you're all probably wanting to push in against them which reduces your fire as well.