World Eaters in 6th

[Brother Ambroz]

World Eaters on juggernaughts makes far more sense than a space marine riding on a giant wolf. Plus lords on juggers were around long before TWC were created.

[Redemption2994]

Personally, I think (please don't hate me for this) Berzerkers should be Elites. They are Elite. They kill with a frenzy to be feared. Nobody in their emperor-damned mind wants to be near them. Grey Knights are Marine Killers, not Daemon Killers. Force Weapons, All Power Weapons... Insane Psychic Abilities, and seriously Quick Silver? :cuss, not even a Slaaneshi Keeper of Secrets can outslash that. That's blatant garbage, and has made my Berzerkers look flat out silly.

 

Berzerkers need some GW Love. I'm not saying all power weapons. But we need access to our Khornate Daemons. Berzerkers need better rules. (On a side note, played a Campaign this weekend. I rolled a FNP on the Veterancy table. Long Story Short. Took 4 turns of Dev Squads, Stern Guards, and repeated bolter fire to take them down. 7 of 8 died. They lost their Veterancy, but the Skull champion and my HQ singlehandedly routed the defending force.)

 

I agree with some sort of anti heavy armor weapon/rule.

I don't agree with a full FNP, maybe give it on a 5,6 like the GK assassins (which is 6).

More Weapons. A chaos armory is a menagerie of killing tools. Why only Chain Axes and Chainswords? Plasma Pistols are cool and all, but they need more CCW Versatility. (call me nuts, but SM scouts can take shotguns. Berzerker Saw-off Teehee?)

Also, I second the return of Juggernaught Cavalry. I use my Bloodcrushers rarely, (because I can't take em with the current dex. And I never win with Daemons...) The entire codex needs to look more like the new SW and GK ones. They have an excellent armory. I want options. And I second a call for fluff. Not :cussty Matt Ward uber fluff. (Though we deserve it after what we endured...) For Khornate Troops, give us Cultists. Guardsman-esque CCW Fodder. And rightfully, Khorne should have someone to watch his Zerker's backs. Range Support isn't an affront to His Rage. It ensures more skulls be reaped. I want Berzerkers that Angron himself would be proud of. I joined 40k during this awful Codex, I never got to enjoy them when they were at their best.

 

Also, with GKs running around buying Force Weapons at Yard Sales, we need a counter for that... Wargear giving us Khârn-like immunity? I don't know, I guess I've ranted enough. But I'm ready for a new Codex...

[The thousand son]

 

All in all we just have to disagree on most parts then. I do not think WE deserves any long range shooting and I dont want daemons back into it. I like the marines that sold themselves, toting a few mutations, honoring their martial pride and beating people on the skull. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Canardwc]

For Khornate Troops, give us Cultists. Guardsman-esque CCW Fodder.

 

Kind of apprentices berserks (brass gladiators currently in rumours maybe ?) with a 4+ save, or beastmen like in the "bloodgor beastmen attack squad" in IA 6 can work too.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

All in all we just have to disagree on most parts then. I do not think WE deserves any long range shooting and I dont want daemons back into it. I like the marines that sold themselves, toting a few mutations, honoring their martial pride and beating people on the skull. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Well even if deamons do get back in the codex, it doesn't mean you would have to take them anyway.

 

And every army always needs at some point some long range firepower, be it from a tank or a Walker-note that i don't mention long range Havocs, but if havocs could be Relentless...,that would be another thing...-, there is just a ton of things that Zerkers can't take on their own, no matter what.

 

Having the ability to move and assault with heavy weapons, is one of the hugest good thing about termies, taking this from them...,not a good idea, you still do have the option to give them all CC options if you want, but denying them this, in 5Ed and in the futur 6Ed heavy long range fire environement?, its just unrealistic.

 

It not like in 3Ed where on a table a SM army could have tops like 6-10 Heavy weapons, and roughly all the same, in 5Ed its going Ape :P crazy!!, with weapons that have like 6 to 10 shots...

 

I do enjoy the look on my opponents face ,when my Defiler or oblits obliterate his 120 heavy shots machine/unit, and see my guys advance in relative safety to crush them.

[The thousand son]

I just dont agree. An army does not have to have long range firepower. Ive seen a vast number of examples of this in tournaments.

 

1. So no. Long range shooting is not essential in 40k.

 

Then we just have a balance issue, not a viability-issue. And it all comes down to points/performance. If Zerkers cost 1p and came with a powerfist, WE would be unbeatable - even without any other choices in the dex. They would fill the board with hundreds and then hundreds of powerfisting berserkers. Unstoppable!

 

2. So balance needs to be achieved.

 

Which is no different from any other balancing act in 40k. GW would inevitably fail at it, but no worse than usual.

 

And those two, very obvios, points brings us to this; You WANT long range shooting. And I dont (in WE).

 

 

 

 

 

 

So there is no argument to be had, it comes down to us not having the same vision for Khorne´s finest. You want to see some balance in weapons/tactics, while I just dont care. I want them to kill stuff with spikes, axes and pure martial superiority.

[Cheex]

Regarding juggernauts, I feel that for them to be viable they'd need Fleet. I know this makes them different to Bloodcrushers, but GW has demonstrated repeatedly that they don't mind having similar units/upgrades be different between codices (until recently with storm shields, etc, for example). If they remained as infantry that can't be transported and doesn't have the ability to deep strike, then I'd say their use would be unfortunately very limited.

 

On heavy weapons, I hope they give WE access to some kind of heavy weaponry. Even if it's just limited to a few units, I'd rather have the option than be told that my army can never do something.

[Redemption2994]

I agree with Fleet for the Juggers. They can't be as slow as a berzerker charging, theyve got 4 legs lol, but not as fast as the Seekers, who are cavalry and get a 12 inch movement. Also, Storm Shields. Chaos could use them... not just WE, Khorne might not like it, but a Chaos Lord deserves the best protection when overseeing a major battle. (I often use my HQ as though he is the mastermind, I try to keep him protected yet also using his effective stats. As such, my Campaign Hero has never died and has racked up a respectable kill count.) Fantasy Warriors of Chaos can take shields, as can their Heroes. I see no reason Chaos should be denied a 3+ save especially when everyone and their mother gets them in the Loyalist Codexes...

[Rain]

Except that that's not what the most recent World Eaters fluff actually indicates. Khârn is "unique" not because he is axe crazy or eschews ranged weaponry, but only in that he has no concept of organization and attacks his own side even during a battle. World Eaters have been known to kill each other for laughs more or less, but this would happen only after the enemy was wiped out and they were out of victims, Khârn does this whenever.

 

As it stands currently, all World Eaters are berzerkers, and are specifically stated as having gotten rid of ranged weapons. Will this be retconned? Maybe, but I really don't understand why people want this so badly, it would just turn WE into Chaos Space Wolves, complete with Chaos Long Fangs and Chaos Thunderwolves, and bleh. Besides, I'm guessing that the next codex will not have legion rules as such so you could always take a squad of "allied" undivided Havocs or what have you with heavy weapons.

[Slayer le Boucher]

As it stands currently, all World Eaters are berzerkers, and are specifically stated as having gotten rid of ranged weapons. Will this be retconned? Maybe, but I really don't understand why people want this so badly, it would just turn WE into Chaos Space Wolves, complete with Chaos Long Fangs and Chaos Thunderwolves, and bleh. Besides, I'm guessing that the next codex will not have legion rules as such so you could always take a squad of "allied" undivided Havocs or what have you with heavy weapons.

 

Yeah this bit is a 3rd Ed rubbish...,before that we had Khorne's Teeths who where like Havocs, but meaner, back then Khorne was the god of War, no matter the way, you had to kill.

 

Its only with 3rd Ed that they forgot how to use their wargear and that Khorne' became a HtH exclusif.

 

And the discussion wasn't on, if WE Havocs could have Heavy's or not, but on the choice to have heavy weapons in Termis squads or not.

 

Saying "no heavy weapons available to WE termies" is a bad idea, i never said that you needed a heavy weapon in each squad or that you had to take Havocs with heavy weapons(wich i do not, i always pick them with assault weapons and in a Rhino).

 

Like my mate Cheexsta said, its always better to have the option, and choosing not to use it, then not having it at all.

 

This new codex must give us MOAR choices, and not less, like what the 4th ed dex did.

[Rain]

Yeah I was referring to something a bit earlier, sorry that was probably unclear, I support heavy weapons in Termi squads, that makes sense because they can still move and shoot which matches the whole "always advancing" thing. And 3rd edition was when all of the Legions really got fluff beyond small snippets it's what defined them to be as individual and unique as they are, I'd hardly call it rubbish. By the way, Khorne's Teeth was from Rogue Trader, back when Space Marines were kind of super space criminals and there was no distinction between legion and chapter, stuff has changed a lot since then.

[Redemption2994]

With Matt Wardian Codexes becoming far more common, when they write this codex, they need to keep several things in mind.

 

One, can this codex compete and hold its own with Grey Knights? We are the Anti-Psyker. We are the close combat nightmare.

 

Two, can I make this Warband my own? Can I make my HQs unique? Are they able to be built to a specific person's desires?

 

Three, Chaos is the most powerful force in this galaxy, the emperor and his golden toilet are all that is keeping us (somehow) from a full scale daemonic invasion. Chaos's unlimited resources and power need to be adequately represented. If we want it, we have the power to take it. This Codex's armoury should be on par or better than Loyalist. There is absolutely no reason for us to not have access to the best equipment, (Storm Shields, Relic Blades, Thunderhammers etc). Chaos corrupts and makes it its own. That and haven't we looted any by now?

[The thousand son]

Fluffbible;

"The World Eaters now possess but a single desire in life -- to slay their enemies in savage melee combat and take their skulls for Khorne. To this end, the Legion has cast away their long-ranged weapons completely and have taken up the Chainaxe favoured by Khorne and the Bolt Pistol. Their thirst for blood and slaughter has become such an overpowering addiction that when battle is joined the World Eaters, now all transformed into Khornate Berserkers, rampage across the battlefield, roaring the name of Khorne, all strategy and tactics forgotten in their overpowering thirst for bloodshed."

 

Keep in mind that chaos marines following khorne, or even beeing marked by khorne, is NOT the same as beeing a World Eater. World Eaters have specific gene-seed, they are decendants of Angron.

 

Further from the bible;

"The World Eaters do, however, possess various artillery weapons gifted to them by Khorne."

 

Again, remember to keep things apart. World Eaters have specific fluff and are from a specific origin. Khorne has more followers than only this legion of course. It´s pretty much the same as when people are talking about "Thousand Sons" and then add stuff to them that does not belong there. It throws me into a fury. Khorne, tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle all have all manner of puppets at their disposal. But the named traitorlegions should not be tainted by random made up stuff. Because then they lose their purpose. Making stuff up is totally fine, and the space for it is left in all the references to traitors (and what not) that did NOT belong to the WE.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Seeing no one as allready talked about the way those "Leakhammer 6th Ed" rules will affect WE i'm gonna give the interessting things i've(or even other members of ToS forums) found.

 

 

Because vehicles are now WS0 if immobile or WS10 if moved, now Khârn can it them on 2's again!(thanks for Cheexsta for pointing that out)

 

 

A Winged D prince.

Monstruous Creatures, as usual 2D6 against vehicles, AP2 in CC,but against other models then vehicles MC's double their Strenght!

Flying;Airborne, move of 9, ignore terrains,charge up to 18", but beeing Flying and not Jump infantry, he don't have to take dangerous terrain test anymore!,+ DS

Massive, has -1 on his EV.

Also MC's are Relentless and have Multitargeting(2)

 

In a Khornate D Prince thos last two are of no significance(well in a Deamon army, if you give him a Fatal strike maybe...)

But for other Legions D Princes, its really good!

 

In a Zerker squad optic:

 

You can give Plasma pistols, and use them in CC as Cheexsta told,thus we arn't as needy of the PF as we used to be, at least against vehicles.

Thus you can give a Power weapon to the Champion, thus granting him a 5++ save!

 

Bikers will be harder to it, because of their EV of 4,making that BS 4 models will need 4's to hit them.

While its true bikes have lost the Turbo boost rule(this rule doesn't exist anymore in 6th),they are a bit harder to hit.

Another bad side of bikes is that the extra Thoughness only counts against Shooting hits, no more in CC.

 

LR are far more deadly and resilient,

 

-Tank,-1 to the damage chart!

-Behemot, Multitargeting(3), thus making possible for a LR to shoot his 3 weapons to 3 differents targets if he moves 6 or stay still!

 

In the Codex Updates the Frenzy rule of the Dreads have been slitghly tweaked!

 

-Fire Frenzy; counts as Lumbering;preventing him to make Cruise/Run move,he can shoot twice with each weapons who require One shooting action.

 

It doesn't fire on friendly units anymore!, plus he doesn't stay immobile!, he can still advance 6" before shooting!

 

-Blood Frenzy-the Dread becomes Enraged and has the Fleet for this turn.

Rage nows takes effect while you are into a 12" radius of ennemy units, but if you don't want to charge the first unit you cross, you then can make a LD test(vehicles count as LD10), the Fleet adds 2" to your move, thuse a Fleeting Dread can make a Charge move of 16"!!

 

Greater Deamons can act as normal the turn they arrive on the table, meaning they can Charge head on to 12"!,but they ar still subject to Defensif Fire from units if he is in a radius of 18" of ennemy units.

 

Cheexsta-

Similarly, Chaos Spawn are more controllable because of the Rage change and a more reliable speed. Unfortunately, they're Lumbering (part of the Slow and Purposeful rule) so ignore all other movement special rules - which includes both Fleet (which they have normally) and the Bounding Leap (which they gain from being beasts) rules. The net effect is that they essentially move as Infantry, lol.

Wind of Chaos is now quite interesting. It no longer "ignores saves" but has AP3, and is a S4 Poisoned (4+) weapon. This means it's worse against Terminators etc, but far better against anything with T4 or less and a 3+ save or worse. The poisoned rule has actually gotten even better in this regard - not only will it wound Space Marines on 4+ with rerolls, it'll also wound T3 models on a 3+ with rerolls (see p82). It's a great horde killer.

Plague Marines got slightly worse - now AP3 weapons will ignore their FNP (see pp33-4).

Thousand Sons got slightly better - now if their Sorcerer dies they'll just be restricted from performing Charge moves (i.e. 12" assaults). Not that you want to get them into combat anyway, since they'd be better off shooting. They can still perform an Engage move (i.e. 6" assault) if you really need them in combat, though.

Edit: I forgot to add that dozer blades are now like Loyalist ones in that they finally work no matter how far the vehicle moved. I have a feeling that I'm going to be retroactively magnetising dozers onto as many of my vehicles as I can.

 

Cheexsta-

 

Daemons also got a bit of a boost:

 

They can now deep strike >18" away from the enemy without scatter and this doesn't have to be in the normal Deep Strike formation, and can perform a standard Combat or Engage move as well (see p140). This means you can effectively end your turn a little more than 12" away with half of your army on the first turn without risk (other than their next turn, of course!), which is great for getting Icons or faster units (beasts, winged units, etc) into position.

Chaos Icons are Beacons, which allows Deep Striking units to arrive completely within 6" of it and not count as being within the 18" 'danger zone' (see p140). The deep striking unit can then launch an Engage assault move (i.e. normal move to reach assault).

 

The downside is that if you deep strike within 12" of an enemy, after you've deployed all your troops the enemy can perform a "Defensive Fire" action, which allows them to shoot at one of your deep striking units. If you can get the right positioning, though, you can minimise the amount of defensive fire that your units will take.

You can withhold reserves if you want, and combine reserve dice to make sure specific units will get to the table at a specific time (see p137). This makes Daemon reserves significantly more reliable, and when combined with the above notes about assaulting on the turn you arrive, you can pretty much guarantee that your big, nasty units will get into combat relatively unscathed.

A charging unit can perform an Alpha Strike move if they charge a unit that is already engaged in assault, which gives them Initiative 10 for that phase (see p56 - it's the same rule that allows units in terrain to strike before units charging them). So, use those fast units (i.e. Flesh Hounds) to tie up the enemy and give your better units I10 when they get around to the assault ;)

You can get a Stratagem that gives your whole army Assault Grenades (see p149). Just saying.

[Cheex]

Flying;Airborne, move of 9, ignore terrains,charge up to 18", but beeing Flying and not Jump infantry, he don't have to take dangerous terrain test anymore!

Unless he lands in dangerous terrain when launching an assault, but that should thankfully be rare.

 

In a Khornate D Prince thos last two are of no significance(well in a Deamon army, if you give him a Fatal strike maybe...)

Even with Death Strike the Multi Targeting (2) rule is useless for Khorne; a model can't usually perform two Fire actions with the same weapon (Chaos Dreadnoughts being an exception).

 

You can give Plasma pistols, and use them in CC as Cheexsta told,thus we arn't as needy of the PF as we used to be, at least against vehicles.

I knew it'd be a good idea to throw together some Berzerkers with plasmas. They swap their attacks for a single attack with the pistol (which can still get +1 for charging), and the strength of this can be improved with Furious Charge. A pair of plasmas in a squad = 4x St8 Rending attacks on the charge. They become a must-have for squads led by power weapon champs, IMHO. Which may become more popular, since wound allocation has been changed up and the Parry 5++ save...

 

Bikers will be harder to it, because of their EV of 4,making that BS 4 models will need 4's to hit them.

While its true bikes have lost the Turbo boost rule(this rule doesn't exist anymore in 6th),they are a bit harder to hit.

Another bad side of bikes is that the extra Thoughness only counts against Shooting hits, no more in CC.

Hold your horses, bikes are still pretty crap. Their improved EV only counts outside of 12" (point blank range), but Chaos bikes' main threat range is within that.

 

One possible use for Bikes, though, is as fast-moving "sniper" squads. 3 bikers, 2 plasma guns. Make one of the plasma gunners the squad leader - he becomes a Character and therefore gains the Directed Hits rule. Meaning you can allocate his wounds to any specific model within an armour save group. Meaning you can snipe enemy powerfists, etc. (Might be better off with meltaguns so they can still pop tanks if need be.)

 

In the Codex Updates the Frenzy rule of the Dreads have been slitghly tweaked!

Slightly tweaked? It's more like they realised what kind of a rubbish rule it was and made Dreadnoughts AWESOME.

 

I think Frenzyman Dreadnoughts (you heard it here first, folks) will become quite popular with Chaos armies, if this remains the case. Even if they roll Blood Frenzy, if they're on your backline then they don't have to move anywhere unless there's an enemy within 12" (and they can still fire because of Relentless). And even then, they only do so if they fail a Morale (ability) test. And if they roll Fire Frenzy...then wow. And they're cheaper than Loyalist Dreads, though they have to make-do with the AutoMissile combo. Still, not too shabby.

 

Still, even assault Dreadnoughts (or even those with mixed roles) will still be tons better than before.

[Brother Ambroz]

Dreads sound much much better in this Edition. If it's true it'll be nice to see them finally get our dreadnaughts right.

[ClintonG]

Honestly I would be happy if we could get:

 

1) Bloodletters, Real ones to be summoned in. (Bloodthirsters, I fear would be to much to balance)

 

2) Zerkers Get Counter assault with furious charge, make people think about getting close to us. Silly Idea

3) Jump pack zerks, Self explanatory

 

4) Cult terminators with FC

 

5) A vet option.

 

 

Really if I could just get furious charge all around I would be pleased.

 

Thanks

[Hellrender]

2) Zerkers Get Counter assault with furious charge, make people think about getting close to us.

 

Sounds very overpowered. Some armies don't have superior shooting, but do have furious charge. If they charge they get chopped, if they don't charge they get chopped. You need to have a way to counter zerkers even without shooting.

[ClintonG]

I could agree, I just want to see Bezerkers truly feared in CC. Yea counter assault is certainly too much. I just get so amped up thinking about the legions dex on the way.

[Interrogator Stobz]

In the 6th 'leak' Rage is mostly controllable too, sorry for trolling, I only skim read this topic (I hope no one else already mentioned 6th Ed rage).

 

Since the IA Apoc 2nd Ed came out my An'Ggraath and other FW Khorne stuff has been forced to move toward and attack crap units like empty Rhinos etc. If the leak is right he will be viable again once passing a Ld check.

 

s

[Radixon]

Gorechild should work like blood talons for blood angels, except if he runs out of models to kill he starts butchering his own unit. I also agree with the idea of a Blood Priest, maybe give the squad feel no pain and preferred enemy or something?

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Gorechild should work like blood talons for blood angels, except if he runs out of models to kill he starts butchering his own unit.

 

I don't really like WE, but I fully support you guys getting a weapon like this.

[Scribe]

I would be fairly surprised (and more disappointed really) if we didnt get something like the following.

 

1. A more characterful Chosen squad, like in 3.5

2. Cult Terminators (maybe just built into Chosen)

3. Something for Zerkers in CC. Right now, they are either too expensive, or just not resilient enough for their points.

4. Army wide +1WS +1 Attack +Furious Charge. Its already baked into berzkerers, but should be present on our HQ, Fast Attack, Elites.

5. Heavy Support options. Dreads need to go here, or Daemon engines of some type that help with popping tanks.

6. At least some way to get fluffy Havocs in there. Teeth of Khorne will never die as a concept!! ;)

7. More Fast Attack options. Well priced Bikes, Jumpers (if only as Raptor Count-As) would only be a start. Get us some Flyer in there as a ranged support option. Hellblade/Talon for example.

8 . Finally, Zerkers on Juggernaughts. As mentioned they would need Fleet or some kind of threat range extender, but I mean really the model opportunities are just too great.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

Ok would love a "collar of khorne upgrade, granting a unit a 3+ save/nullify against any psychic tests affecting them.

Khornate chain axes that rend! Would scare any power armour force

Jugger riding boys, using thunderwolf rules as they seem right, but as we get no thunder hammer option or shield option furious charge instead

Daemons that are khornate

How about some brass engines of khorne then?

Some kind of vehicle we can assault from that's not a raider

[Muskie]

What I suggested was Chaos Elites should be Bezerkers, Plaguemarines, Rubic Marines, Noise Marines, and Chosen. Chosen can be in terminator armor or not. I'd prefer it not to require a special character but regardless if you Lord is Khorne, Bezerkers becomes troops. If your Lord is Nurgle, Plaguemarines become troops. I wouldn't even have a mark of Chaos Undivided, if your not marked by a god, you're chaos undivided by default. Then you need say Abaddon who makes Chosen troops.

 

I just don't want every Khorne army led by Kharne, he isn't the inspirational speech type and he's one man, he can't be everywhere. I'd then have Troops be regular Chaos Spacemarines and I guess lesser demons. I'd put dreads back into heavy support. I'm not a believer in possessed. I think mutations should be prevalent in most chaos armies. If Bezerkers were Elite a better argument could be made for making them better in H2H. Basic Joe Marines should outnumber Bezerkers or Chosen or Plaguemarines, but it would still be possible to field an all Bezerker army.

 

I also think the flying/floating model is coming for Chaos. I'd like cultists or non-power armor troops or much more well thought out demons. I also want Nurglings back. ;-)

 

I remember when Plasma pistols used to help in H2H. I'd be in favour of this as right now they cost the same as a Plasma Gun in some cases and are just inferior. There only claim to fame was aspiring champions could have them. I'd also vote flamers for bezerkers, give them another assault special weapon option.