Heroic Sacrifice and vehicles

[Seahawk]

"This power can be used when the BC is removed as a casualty during either player's Assault phase.

 

If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed." (Codex: Grey Knights p.26)

One might think this will never come up with vehicles, but indeed it can. For simple starters, against walkers, if successful, both models go poof. That's some nice anti-walker insurance.

 

But what about other vehicles...same deal? Assaulting some Tau vehicles with flechettes can cause him to die. Or perhaps they assaulted a vehicle, and now another unit assaults them. BC is in contact with both, dies, and can successfully kill off the vehicle. Neat. 100 points well spent.

 

And here we come to transports. Let's go "silly scenario, normal game" style: Bro-Champ and crew assault a land raider that's stuffed to the gills with terminators and stun/immobilize it or something. Terminators don't get out because other unit can assault/take care of them and so it charges. If the Bro Champ dies but is successful with his Heroic Sac.(;)), the land raider goes poof. Do all the terminators inside go poof too? Do they get to disembark? Why/why not?

 

Heroic Sacrifice only says the model the Bro Champ is touching goes poof without saves, nothing about models inside the model going poof. However, models can only be forced to disembark when their transport suffers a "Destroyed" result...this isn't that, in the same way the previous codex was able to override Eternal Warrior and such with their old-style force weapons.

[dswanick]

"This power can be used when the BC is removed as a casualty during either player's Assault phase.

 

If the Psychic test is successful, the Brotherhood Champion immediately makes a single attack against one enemy model that was in base contact when he died. If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed." (Codex: Grey Knights p.26)

One might think this will never come up with vehicles, but indeed it can. For simple starters, against walkers, if successful, both models go poof. That's some nice anti-walker insurance.

 

But what about other vehicles...same deal? Assaulting some Tau vehicles with flechettes can cause him to die. Or perhaps they assaulted a vehicle, and now another unit assaults them. BC is in contact with both, dies, and can successfully kill off the vehicle. Neat. 100 points well spent.

 

And here we come to transports. Let's go "silly scenario, normal game" style: Bro-Champ and crew assault a land raider that's stuffed to the gills with terminators and stun/immobilize it or something. Terminators don't get out because other unit can assault/take care of them and so it charges. If the Bro Champ dies but is successful with his Heroic Sac.(;)), the land raider goes poof. Do all the terminators inside go poof too? Do they get to disembark? Why/why not?

 

Heroic Sacrifice only says the model the Bro Champ is touching goes poof without saves, nothing about models inside the model going poof. However, models can only be forced to disembark when their transport suffers a "Destroyed" result...this isn't that, in the same way the previous codex was able to override Eternal Warrior and such with their old-style force weapons.

Well, my first thought is that vehicles can't become "casualties".

REMOVE CASUALTIES

For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from weapons with very high AP. Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty

The rules imply an equivalency between "casualty" and "model removed due losing its last wound" and vehicles don't take "wounds". As the power doesn't specify that a vehicle is "Destroyed" or "Wrecked", I'd conclude that it doesn't affect vehicles at all.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Its in the FAQ and I think it says it does remove vehicles.

[Seahawk]

Its in the FAQ and I think it says it does remove vehicles.

There's nothing about it in the FAQ, I looked earlier. GW lovingly lets us flail about in search of answers instead of providing them, naturally.

 

@dswanick - I can completely understand your point and it swings my belief that way, but it doesn't say "one non-vehicle model...," instead simply saying "one model." Without a qualifier, I feel it can target both men and tanks equally.

 

 

 

 

Beyond the thunderdome though, as a second debate let's make the assumption that this works. What happens to the occupants of a transport?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Its in the FAQ and I think it says it does remove vehicles.

There's nothing about it in the FAQ, I looked earlier. GW lovingly lets us flail about in search of answers instead of providing them, naturally.

 

@dswanick - I can completely understand your point and it swings my belief that way, but it doesn't say "one non-vehicle model...," instead simply saying "one model." Without a qualifier, I feel it can target both men and tanks equally.

 

 

 

 

Beyond the thunderdome though, as a second debate let's make the assumption that this works. What happens to the occupants of a transport?

I would say they proof too because until they say that it does or doesn't do a vehicle and if it destroys the vehicle then the guys can't disembark because it isn't a destroied result.

[Something Wycked]

The rules imply an equivalency between "casualty" and "model removed due losing its last wound" and vehicles don't take "wounds". As the power doesn't specify that a vehicle is "Destroyed" or "Wrecked", I'd conclude that it doesn't affect vehicles at all.

Keep in mind the power states "If this attack hits, both models are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed."

 

Not only does this circumvent the normal "remove casualties" process that you quoted, but it effectively is stating that the model "counts as a casualty" and is removed as such, even though this is a deviation from the base rules. Psychic powers do strange things sometimes ;)

 

As Seahawk requested, lets go on and assume that it works.

 

By RAW, the embarked models may not disembark as the disembarkation rules refer to specific vehicle damage table results and how they affect the disembarking squad, and "vehicle removed as a casualty" is not on that list. Apparently, the BChamp's Heroic Sac. :lol: is so heroic that his target is annihilated thoroughly enough to not leave anything meaningful behind- including the squad inside.

[awfulawful]

I seem to recall that when Lukas the Trickster's stasis bomb trick was FAQed, it was ruled that if it hit a vehicle, the vehicle and its occupants were simply removed. Someone please correct me if I am remembering that incorrectly. Otherwise, the two effects seem very similar and I'd agree that the occupants would die as well.

[Something Wycked]

That might be a good precedent to go by if the wording is the same or very similar ("removed as casualties with no saves allowed.") Can anyone verify for us, please? :lol:

[SeattleDV8]

SW FAQ

"Q. If The Last Laugh removes a transport vehicle that has

models embarked, are the embarked models also lost? (p52)

A. Yes."

[Seahawk]

Intriguing...so the precedent is set then for a special "remove from play" rule such as Lucas and the Heroic Sac. to remove a transport and its occupants. I feel that it is still a grey area that needs an official statement, but I'd be confident ruling that it would happen in that manner. Good find.

 

 

 

Now, back to can it happen. Yes?

[Something Wycked]

Intriguing...so the precedent is set then for a special "remove from play" rule such as Lucas and the Heroic Sac. to remove a transport and its occupants. I feel that it is still a grey area that needs an official statement, but I'd be confident ruling that it would happen in that manner. Good find.

What I'm more concerned with is the wording of The Last Laugh- does it also say something very similar to "removed as casualties with no saves allowed?"

 

Now, back to can it happen. Yes?

Absolutely, but it would take some skill and a lot of luck to get your BC killed while in contact with a transport that has models embarked- you'd have to multicharge a unit and a nearby filled transport such that the BC is in contact with both, and then the unit would have to direct enough attacks at the BC to kill him.

[awfulawful]

Home with my SW codex now, Lukas' rule, The Last Laugh, does indeed say that "all models in base contact with him are also removed from play as casualties..."

 

The wording is consistent, and again, I think it is reasonable to look to this rule and how it was treated in the FAQ in this case.

[JamesI]

Normally, I would say the wording implies it doesn't work against vehicles.

 

But based on the Lukas precedent, it seems like it works to remove vehicles.

[dswanick]

Agreed. Lukas' Last Laugh and the C:SW FAQ sets this as a precedent. Thanks awfulawful.

[KhorneHunter57x]

However, it shouldn't work against Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures, unlike The Last Laugh.

[dswanick]

However, it shouldn't work against Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures, unlike The Last Laugh.

Yeah, but strictly speaking - the Last Laugh shouldn't work the way it's FAQd to against GCs/SHs.

[Gentlemanloser]

Bro-Champ and crew assault a land raider that's stuffed to the gills with terminators and stun/immobilize it or something. Terminators don't get out because other unit can assault/take care of them and so it charges.

 

Can't remember, was it last edition where you had to move 1" away after assaulting a vehicle without a WS, as you can't remain within 1" of an enemy mini and not be locked in assault (which you can't be with WS less vehicles), or this edition? :/

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Bro-Champ and crew assault a land raider that's stuffed to the gills with terminators and stun/immobilize it or something. Terminators don't get out because other unit can assault/take care of them and so it charges.

 

Can't remember, was it last edition where you had to move 1" away after assaulting a vehicle without a WS, as you can't remain within 1" of an enemy mini and not be locked in assault (which you can't be with WS less vehicles), or this edition? :/

 

Since in this edition you get to attack if you're still in base contact with the enemy vehicle during their turn, it's definitely not this edition.