legal use of multiple weapons?

[uldrick]

hello,

as you can fire 2 weapon each turn with a dread(unless running), can you fire both weapon, even if one is clearly not in range, toward your target and hit something else in the way.

in my case, i am specificaly talking about a MM/HF dread firing his MM at Target 1 and his HF toward target 1 which is too far away but still hit unit 2, as depicted in the diagram below:

is it legal? i cannot find anything agaisnt it as long as i fire the template in a manner to cover as much as the target 1 as possible, but since he'too far for the template to cover, i have to place it in a way that it goes directly towards him and hit anything in that path.

your thoughts?

[thade]

No :) You declare your target: if out of range, you automatically miss.

[Seahawk]

Yes, even with Template weapons they are automatically misses.

 

HOWEVER.

 

If the dreadnought's heavy flamer is in range of its target and there's a unit in the way like in your example, the Template can indeed hit both units, even if the primary target is a vehicle it can't hurt.

[uldrick]

i am affraid that i cannot agree with both of you.

 

p.29, under template weapons in the BrB:

 

instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. agfaisnt vehicules, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicule as possible without touching a friendly model. any model fully or partially under the template are hit. against vehicules, use the direction of the firer to determine which armour facing is attacked. because template weapon bathe the are in burning feul, cover saves are ignored when resolving wounds, even models inside terrain! wounds inflicted by template weapons do not have to be allocated on the models actually covered by the template, but can be put onto any model in the unit.

 

 

no mention of what happens of you can't reach your primary target with it, you just have to try to cover it as much, which is done by orienting the template toward your first target. doing so, i cover the targeted unit as much as possible with the template, which means 0 models since the template isn't reaching them.

 

 

the ''auto-miss if out of range'' rule is written specificaly in the Blast weapon description on page 30 of the BrB. so i assume that this rule is intended only for the blast weapon and does not affect template weapons, which has no range characteristic thus would alway be out of range and auto-miss.

 

as far as i can tell, i am pretty sure that my interpretation follows the RAW, but still, i am up for debate.

[Seahawk]

Well, they do actually have a range. Not only that, but all weapons automatically miss if they are out of range, not just Blast weapons:

 

"They are indicated by having the word 'template' for their range instead of a number." (p.29) I take this to mean their range is the template, or ~8".

 

"Any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach." (p.17)

 

 

 

So, if the template weapon is out of its range (its range is the template) then it automatically misses.

[Dan VK]

I was in the process of quoting the BRB when I saw Seahawk had posted the same text. Needless to say, I agree with him.

[thade]

To make sure it's clear (as I can see how this is confusing): if you declare the far unit to be the target and the template weapon cannot reach it, it automatically misses per the rules. That means - even if there's another eligible unit underneath it - you don't get the hits.

 

The reverse, however, does work...as Seahawk pointed out. If you declare the near unit to be the target and it turns out the template can reach another unit as well, you can hit more than one unit with the template. In fact if by doing so you maximize the number of enemy models under the template, you are required to do it. :)

 

The RAW is super, super clear. Declare target. Out of range? Weapon auto-misses. Auto-misses = it hits nothing.

[Frosty the Pyro]

i am affraid that i cannot agree with both of you.

 

p.29, under template weapons in the BrB:

 

instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models. agfaisnt vehicules, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicule as possible without touching a friendly model. any model fully or partially under the template are hit. against vehicules, use the direction of the firer to determine which armour facing is attacked. because template weapon bathe the are in burning feul, cover saves are ignored when resolving wounds, even models inside terrain! wounds inflicted by template weapons do not have to be allocated on the models actually covered by the template, but can be put onto any model in the unit.

 

 

no mention of what happens of you can't reach your primary target with it, you just have to try to cover it as much, which is done by orienting the template toward your first target. doing so, i cover the targeted unit as much as possible with the template, which means 0 models since the template isn't reaching them.

 

 

the ''auto-miss if out of range'' rule is written specificaly in the Blast weapon description on page 30 of the BrB. so i assume that this rule is intended only for the blast weapon and does not affect template weapons, which has no range characteristic thus would alway be out of range and auto-miss.

 

as far as i can tell, i am pretty sure that my interpretation follows the RAW, but still, i am up for debate.

 

It has to do with the order of operations

pg 15 presents the order of operations for shooting attacks

 

1 check line of sight and pick a target

2 check range

3 roll to hit

4 roll to wound

5 take saves

6 remove casualties

 

step two occurs before step three

 

In the check range section (pg 17) it states quite clearly that if all models in the target unit are found to be out of range, the attack misses entirely. the range of the flamer is template.

 

The part you quoted changes step 3 (rolling to hit), which you do not even get to because you found yourself to be out of range in the previous step.

[uldrick]

ah, now i see it your way.

 

look like i missed the phrase that say that the template is the range.

 

thanks all

[Ming]

Yep, your tactic should be to get the dread closer to both units so you can hit both.

 

On the other hand, as the defender, the defensive bubble wrap tactic is to make sure the enemy unit cannot fire and hit both the wrapper and the wrapped. That is where distance is your friend.