Mechanised Blood Angels

[Brother_Byhlli]

I'm currently putting thought into my newest Blood Angels list and I'm considering building a mechanised Blood Angels army.

 

My first army is all jump infantry. I'm still putting the final touches on my second army, which is pretty much entirely Death Company. My third list will be mostly tanks and vehicles.

 

But, I have no experience of running a mechanised list. So I appeal to you, oh Great Forum of General Wisdom of Everything, to give me ideas on how to run a mechanised list. I'm looking for:

 

• Your automatic picks for a mechanised army. Is there a unit you never leave home without?
  
• Your ne'er picks for a mechanised army. What units will break the synergy of your army or add nothing to the list?
  
• Your general tactics for a mechanised army. How do you generally deploy? How much movement do you expect to use in a turn? What are your priority targets?
  
• Some synergistic combinations for a mechanised army. Are there any units that really heavily complement each other?
  
• Anything else you can think of.
  

I'm not considering the specifics of a list yet, because I don't have the knowledge of the experience to put anything together.

 

Things I do have in mind, however:

 

• I love Land Raiders.
  
• I expect to be taking a goodly number of Razorbacks with five-man Assault Squads inside.
  
• Baal Predators look like they can do a decent job.
  
• I've never played around with Land Speeders or Space Marine Bikes. I don't know if that sort of unit fits with a mechanised list.
  
• I expect to play a more shooty army than I play with my jump infantry. With that in mind, I'm considering Devastators.
  

Looking forward to the community's input. Thanks in advance, brothers!

[Leonaides]

•I love Land Raiders.

•I expect to be taking a goodly number of Razorbacks with five-man Assault Squads inside.

Unfortunately these two dont go together unless you're talking 3k armies... Dont take just 1 LR, but if you're taking 2 or 3, you probably wont have the points available for multiple razorbacks...

 

You want mech - consider a mix of RAS in razors and 10-man tac squads in Rhinos - you can double-team a target with a dose of rapid-fire from the tac squad then charge and finish off the remnants with the RAS, you have the free HW in the tac squad if you go up against another mech-list (spend first turn popping chimeras or Valkries, then move in for the kill kind of thing). You also have a good amount of flexibility and mobility to threaten in many ways.

[Jorre]

I've had alot of success at 1500 running

 

Mephiston

Assault termies in land raider

3 razors with either las/plas or assault cannons

2 auto/las predators

 

You can either use meph and the termies as a counter charge element, or you can play very aggressive with them. Either way your razors and preds will be outlaying alot of fire power, but will not be a target until meph and the land raider have been delt with.

[Deschenus Maximus]

[*]Your automatic picks for a mechanised army. Is there a unit you never leave home without?

 

Librarian with shield, 5 man ASM squads with fists and meltas in Razors, Autolas preds. Generally, I will also have speeders, but that depends on the Razor turret loadout I go for.

 

[*]Your ne'er picks for a mechanised army. What units will break the synergy of your army or add nothing to the list?

 

If you are going pure Mech: any jump infantry unit, bike units, shooty terminators, Scout squads. If you don't mind a little hybridization (sp?), then I would just say CC Scout squads.

 

[*]Your general tactics for a mechanised army. How do you generally deploy? How much movement do you expect to use in a turn? What are your priority targets?

 

This varies too considerably depending on which mech units I use, and I don't have time to write an essay on the subject :D

 

Generally, priority targets will be those units that can de-mech me at range, then those that can de-mech me close-in (melta units), then everything else depending on the situation.

 

[*]Some synergistic combinations for a mechanised army. Are there any units that really heavily complement each other?

 

The Shield Libby is a godsend to mech lists.

 

Aside from that, combos depend heavily on the razor variant you pick:

TLHF Razor (short range AP): MM speeders (Heavy armour killer) + autolas preds (long range armour supression/transport popper) or riflemen dreads (supression/transport popping)

TLAC Razor (mid-range supression/AP/"I'm feelin' lucky!" AT): MM speeders (as above) + autolas preds (as above)

TLPG/LC Razor (long range AT/short range heavy-infantry AP): MM speeders (as above) + dakka preds (long range AP)

 

[*]Anything else you can think of.

 

Don't get mesmerized by fast Vindicators. They can be totally devastating... when the enemy isn't in cover... and the blast doesn't deviate... and you haven't had your gun blown off... or been immobilised in the backfield... or immobilised at a bad angle... or stunned/shacken...

 

Be aware of where your shield libby is at all times.

 

Just because you have Razors doesn't mean the squads inside can't disembark and assault when necessary.

 

 

[*]I love Land Raiders.

 

Raiders are severely overcosted IMO, but you can use them in mech lists as long as you make sure to synergise the rest of the list with them.

 

[*]I expect to be taking a goodly number of Razorbacks with five-man Assault Squads inside.

 

That's good.

 

[*]Baal Predators look like they can do a decent job.

 

They are overcosted to a certain extent. I like to call it the "not a Heavy Support choice" tax. That being said, they are still fairly decent. The question is more "will I need them?", and that depends a lot on the rest of your list.

 

[*]I've never played around with Land Speeders or Space Marine Bikes. I don't know if that sort of unit fits with a mechanised list.

 

Speeders yes. Attack bikes yes. Regular bikes? Not so sure about that one. Then again, maybe there's something to be said about T5 3+/5+ cover/FnP marines riding in support of the other elements of the army.

 

[*]I expect to play a more shooty army than I play with my jump infantry. With that in mind, I'm considering Devastators.

 

Devs aren't bad, but for a mech list, autolas preds is where it's at.

[skrikspya]

Deschenus Maximus made a very nice compilation of mech usually is ran as BA.

 

Your automatic picks for a mechanised army. Is there a unit you never leave home without?

 

-Razorbacks. The rest can vary for me, but a strong core of 3-4 backs is usually fielded for me.

 

Your ne'er picks for a mechanised army. What units will break the synergy of your army or add nothing to the list?

 

-I never play special characters, scouts.

 

Your general tactics for a mechanised army. How do you generally deploy? How much movement do you expect to use in a turn? What are your priority targets?

Some synergistic combinations for a mechanised army. Are there any units that really heavily complement each other?

Anything else you can think of.

 

-Well.. It all depends on what my opponent fields. I try to maka balanced lists who can react to circumstances rather than a one trick pony. Also depends if I run with a landraider, two or none at all.

 

 

 

Things I do have in mind, however:

 

I love Land Raiders.

 

-Same, they've done some heroic deeds and soak up a lot of fire I find them simply awesome.

 

I expect to be taking a goodly number of Razorbacks with five-man Assault Squads inside.

 

-We all do :)

 

Baal Predators look like they can do a decent job.

 

-Yes, they are nice! A nice plus is that we as BA are the only one who can use it, so use it damn it!

 

I've never played around with Land Speeders or Space Marine Bikes. I don't know if that sort of unit fits with a mechanised list.

 

-Land SPeeders are a very nice addition. Cheap firepower who look awesome. Can DS if needed or zoom in with rest of the army.

 

I expect to play a more shooty army than I play with my jump infantry. With that in mind, I'm considering Devastators.

 

When I field devastators I run 2 groups of 5, w 3 ML in each. One group and it's too easy to avoid.

 

 

I did a list some time ago, not as powerful it could be. But it's nice and make use of all my favourite units, + it's not let me down yet.

 

For some 1750 p

 

Librarian

 

2x 5 man RAS w mg in Razor w lasplas

1x 10 TAC w mg, mm in Rhino

 

5 assault termies, 3 hammers, 2 claws.

Priest

 

LRR

 

2x MM speeders

1x Assault can Baal w HB sponsons

 

2x Rifle Dreads

 

Switched out libby, priest + termies for DC + recl a game and worked very nice aswell. Can't really stand standard Preds so I roll without them (until I eventually will fall for them)

[AustonT]

My mech list pretty much revolves around my SPs and Libby. I generally split my force based on who succeeded at the red thirst roll and everyone else. Keeping shield and FNP in every unit is clutch.

I absolutely wouldn't run a mech list with Dreads. I know there are differing opinions for it, that's mine. I generally run at least one vindi, a Dakka pred, auto las pred, baal pred, and Atk bikes wit MMs to support my mech infantry. Lately the Dakka pred has been replaced by another vindi. They work well for me, ymmv. The key to mech is keeping a solid order of battle going, know where you are sending each column and how the support each other. Try to keep front armor towards the enemy and deny the sides with preds or cover.

[Brother_Byhlli]

•I love Land Raiders.

•I expect to be taking a goodly number of Razorbacks with five-man Assault Squads inside.

Unfortunately these two dont go together unless you're talking 3k armies... Dont take just 1 LR, but if you're taking 2 or 3, you probably wont have the points available for multiple razorbacks...

 

You want mech - consider a mix of RAS in razors and 10-man tac squads in Rhinos - you can double-team a target with a dose of rapid-fire from the tac squad then charge and finish off the remnants with the RAS, you have the free HW in the tac squad if you go up against another mech-list (spend first turn popping chimeras or Valkries, then move in for the kill kind of thing). You also have a good amount of flexibility and mobility to threaten in many ways.

 

How do you take advantage of having troops inside the vehicles, or do you start the troops disembarked? The reason I'm asking is that, due to my normal mobility with using only jump infantry, the fact that Razorbacks and Rhinos are not assault vehicles seem to make their troops' attacks awfully slow, doesn't it?

 

Is it not also the case that for full benefit to your transports you don't want to be moving at full speed, in order that you get to still fire your weapons? Seems your guys are going to take forever to get into combat.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I've had alot of success at 1500 running

 

Mephiston

Assault termies in land raider

3 razors with either las/plas or assault cannons

2 auto/las predators

 

You can either use meph and the termies as a counter charge element, or you can play very aggressive with them. Either way your razors and preds will be outlaying alot of fire power, but will not be a target until meph and the land raider have been delt with.

 

Mephiston seems to be a standard go-to in mechanised lists. I'm wondering why?

 

My understanding is:

 

• Because mechanised lists don't rely on squads, Mephiston's lack of the independent character special rule is less harmful.
  
• Mephiston's ability to hide either behind or inside a tank makes him significantly harder to kill.
  
• He can reliably be used as a one-man combat squad. His ability to provide counter-attacking power is golden.
  
• Because the strength of the mechanised list is weakening the enemy through shooting, Mephiston is less likely to be killed in combat when he finally reaches the weakened enemy lines.
  

Did I miss anything?

 

My problem with Mephiston is possibly just that I hate the model. I guess I should try actually using the guy and see what happens. I'll make a counts-as at some point and give it a go. Any advice on how to go about it?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Use DA robed legs, a Sang Guard chestpiece and Berzerker should pads. Going to need to sculpt hair too...

[thade]

My problem with Mephiston is possibly just that I hate the model. I guess I should try actually using the guy and see what happens. I'll make a counts-as at some point and give it a go. Any advice on how to go about it?

Mephiston is very, very, very well-equipped to take on large infantry blocks in melee.

 

How do I use him? I first note and memorize what transports/units my opponent has which spam AP2 or better firepower (as those units will brush Meph aside if they get to shoot him, I need to keep that from happening). I slog Meph up behind my Land Raider and counter-charge with him or pop a transport/walker. If there's an IC in the unit that's geared up for taking down other ICs (Khârn, Abbadon, Calgar, Logan) I will try to not engage that model...otherwise I will definitely engage ICs to take advantage of Transfixing Gaze. I only use Sanguine Sword to pop a transport or high toughness model: in an infantry unit that's T5 or less, I just roll with Unleashed Rage. Even if there is an IC in BTB with Meph, I will only one attack or less at him, typically focusing most attacks on the unit at large, slaughtering mooks and winning combat. (The one attack at the IC might let me Force Weapon him off the table.) At Meph's high Initiative, he's very well set-up to Sweep and brush those infantry units aside.

 

He's insanely good against Ork Tides, foot-slogging IG and MEQ, and Tyranids in those rare times they don't have Shadows on the Warp available.

 

He runs into trouble against anybody with anti-psyker abilities (psychic hoods and those annoying SW staves in particular...and also, the dreaded Eldar crap that makes you test on three dice) and any list with lots of AP2 (e.g. IG with lots of vet squads). He's still good...just no longer insane.

[Deschenus Maximus]

To add to what thade said, you need to ensure to things with Meph to keep him alive:

1-He's always either hidden behind a vehicle, or in the middle of a squad to get a 4+ cover.

2-You multi-charge enemy units with another squad, making sure that any enemy fist sergeants are locked in combat with the squad and not Meph.

 

By doing this, you are mitigating the weaknesses brought on by not being an IC and not having an invul.

 

Sadly, there is not much you can do about his vulnerability to Psyhoods and such.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Librarian with shield, 5 man ASM squads with fists and meltas in Razors, Autolas preds. Generally, I will also have speeders, but that depends on the Razor turret loadout I go for.

 

An "Autolas pred" is presumably a standard Predator with additional lascannon side sponsons? Is that the normal go-to for your Heavy Support choice? I notice Whirlwinds are rarely picked up and I hear excellent things about Vindicators taken in pairs. Is there a reason you prefer the Predator?

 

If you are going pure Mech: any jump infantry unit, bike units, shooty terminators, Scout squads. If you don't mind a little hybridization (sp?), then I would just say CC Scout squads.

 

Jump infantry I understand. What's wrong with Scout Squads? Don't they provide an element of long-ranged fire power with an excellent protective cover save? I mean, I understand that they're not vehicles, but not everything in a mechanised list is a vehicle, no? Also, you specify Terminator Tactical Squads - what about Terminator Assault Squads. Are they viable? I guess we're talking about them or Death Company in a Land Raider for your assault element, right?

 

This varies too considerably depending on which mech units I use, and I don't have time to write an essay on the subject ;)

 

Generally, priority targets will be those units that can de-mech me at range, then those that can de-mech me close-in (melta units), then everything else depending on the situation.

 

Cool, I understand there's a lot to be said on the subject. I guess we're looking at messing up lances, lascannons and missiles to start. That sort of thing. Do you ever reserve stuff? Because reserving with non-jump infantry is so much less reliable for bringing them on the table, I wonder if it's worth it. Maybe I've just been spoiled with my rerolls for failed reserve rolls... ;)

 

The Shield Libby is a godsend to mech lists.

 

Aside from that, combos depend heavily on the razor variant you pick:

TLHF Razor (short range AP): MM speeders (Heavy armour killer) + autolas preds (long range armour supression/transport popper) or riflemen dreads (supression/transport popping)

TLAC Razor (mid-range supression/AP/"I'm feelin' lucky!" AT): MM speeders (as above) + autolas preds (as above)

TLPG/LC Razor (long range AT/short range heavy-infantry AP): MM speeders (as above) + dakka preds (long range AP)

 

Is cover really such a big issue for mechanised lists? Why so? I would have assumed that keeping units shielded behind each other or behind walls or terrain is fairly straight forward, no? Everyone that discusses it, though, seems to like the Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius. How many do you take? If you have Mephiston in the list, do you bother with another psyker?

 

It seems from the various combinations that you don't plan on moving your army much at all. You aim to sit still and have the weaponry to cope with your enemy as he crosses the board towards you. How does that cope against dedicated gunlines? I would have thought Imperial Guard, Space Wolves (Eldar? Dark Eldar?) would cope against that sort of list pretty well. It also just seems a bit less fun to me. How much movement do you get out of your army?

 

Don't get mesmerized by fast Vindicators. They can be totally devastating... when the enemy isn't in cover... and the blast doesn't deviate... and you haven't had your gun blown off... or been immobilised in the backfield... or immobilised at a bad angle... or stunned/shacken...

 

Be aware of where your shield libby is at all times.

 

Just because you have Razors doesn't mean the squads inside can't disembark and assault when necessary.

 

You're not a fan of Vindicators, then? :) I had been led to believe that if you're taking them at all, you need to take two. What kind of army do you think they're best suited at fighting?

 

Do you generally expect to use your embarked troops aggressively or defensively? I mean, is your aim to move up into the enemy, disembark and charge, or do you keep them embarked until the enemy is on your doorstep and you need to buy another round of shooting from your Razorback? I assume the latter.

 

Raiders are severely overcosted IMO, but you can use them in mech lists as long as you make sure to synergise the rest of the list with them.

 

So I was thinking that given you seem to use your Fast Attack slots on Land Speeders, maybe I ought to use a Land Raider Redeemer in place of Baal Predators for short-range anti-personnel. Land Speeders cover my mid-table with melta and my Razorbacks and Predators pump out lascannon to my opponent's backline. A Land Raider Redeemer with Death Company inside should deter anyone from closing with my tanks too quickly, right? :)

 

Note: having written that I just went and looked at the Codex again. Of course, I forgot that Land Speeders can be taken in squads of up to three, so not all my Fast Attack slots need to be filled with them. Do you think a single squad of three multi-melta Land Speeders is sufficient, combined with two Baal Predators with flamestorm cannons?

 

They are overcosted to a certain extent. I like to call it the "not a Heavy Support choice" tax. That being said, they are still fairly decent. The question is more "will I need them?", and that depends a lot on the rest of your list.

 

You think we pay more because they're in a separate FOC slot? That could be the case, though I'd be slightly surprised. I suspect they're highly-priced because they have the Scout special rule. Are they viable as almost suicide units, starting with a couple in your enemy's face and just unloading with flamestorm cannons at his weakest units? How do you best take advantage of their ability to Scout?

 

Speeders yes. Attack bikes yes. Regular bikes? Not so sure about that one. Then again, maybe there's something to be said about T5 3+/5+ cover/FnP marines riding in support of the other elements of the army.

 

Bikes get crazy cover saves, don't they? Attack Bikes are ten points cheaper than Land Speeders and come in the same-sized units. Would you consider them instead of Land Speeders? They get the bike cover save, they don't pay the points for deep striking and each model has two wounds. You're relying on T4(5) instead of AV10, but that doesn't seem to me to be significantly different, especially with armour saves, cover saves and a reasonable toughness and wounds statline.

 

Devs aren't bad, but for a mech list, autolas preds is where it's at.

 

I would have thought that Devastators provide a much greater coverage of firepower and the ability to take more damage than Predators. They're less mobile and slightly more expensive, though. Why do you think that Predators are so much move valuable? I guess their front armour ignores any weapon that's S6 or lower. That's got to be worth something.

 

Oh. I just checked the autocannon entry. I had no idea they were Heavy 2. They'll do a decent amount of damage to pretty much anything, too, so long as it isn't in power armour. Jeepers. Suddenly, combined with the power of the flamestorm cannon, I'm coming around to the idea of mechanised Blood Angels!

 

So I guess if you stay still, you can put out four shots with an autocannon/lascannons Predator? Two each from the lascannons and the autocannon. So that matches the damage output of the Devastators, or near as dammit. Ok, I think I might be sold on that!

[thade]

Sadly, there is not much you can do about his vulnerability to Psyhoods and such.

Without his powers he's still a beast. He's Fleet, T6, five wounds, with a host of PW attacks on the charge at S6. His powers are great, but they are not necessary. I used him in two games vs GK recently and he was the star of the show, slaughtering Purifier squads and shrugging off Psy-bolt Autocannon fire without a second thought.

[Brother_Byhlli]

-Razorbacks. The rest can vary for me, but a strong core of 3-4 backs is usually fielded for me.

 

And you use Assault Squads for them? I assume everyone runs with lascannon/twin-linked plasma gun to avoid only having one weapon on the tank?

 

-I never play special characters, scouts.

 

That's two strikes for Scouts, then. Why no special characters? Does that include Mephiston?

 

-Well.. It all depends on what my opponent fields. I try to maka balanced lists who can react to circumstances rather than a one trick pony. Also depends if I run with a landraider, two or none at all.

 

How do you use your Land Raiders? They seem somewhat contentious in mechanised lists.

 

-Same, they've done some heroic deeds and soak up a lot of fire I find them simply awesome.

 

Do you take more than one? Again, how do you use them? ;)

 

-Yes, they are nice! A nice plus is that we as BA are the only one who can use it, so use it damn it!

 

Yup, I'm kinda tempted to use them purely because they're our tanks, dammit. I absolutely insist on having a Blood Angels-themed army and if I'm using a mechanised list, Baal Predators are where it's at.

 

-Land SPeeders are a very nice addition. Cheap firepower who look awesome. Can DS if needed or zoom in with rest of the army.

 

Two votes for Land Speeders, then. Do you prefer them to Attack Bikes? The Attack Bikes are cheaper....

 

When I field devastators I run 2 groups of 5, w 3 ML in each. One group and it's too easy to avoid.

 

Do you use Devastators in your mechanised lists? DM seems to feel that Predators are superior. What's your take?

 

1x 10 TAC w mg, mm in Rhino

 

5 assault termies, 3 hammers, 2 claws.

 

1x Assault can Baal w HB sponsons

 

2x Rifle Dreads

 

Can't really stand standard Preds so I roll without them (until I eventually will fall for them)

 

Why use a Tactical Squad instead of the cheaper Assault Squad?

 

Why Terminators? I was planning on using Death Company as my counter-assault unit. Or Mephiston. Or Death Company and Mephiston.

 

Your Baal isn't using a flamstorm cannon. Is there a reason for that? I guess you range with the assault cannon and heavy bolter sponsons is much higher. Is that why you go for that loadout? What about using a flamestorm cannon, Scouting up towards the enemy and unleashing hell?

 

What draws you to Dreadnoughts? Why do you prefer them to Predators? I guess they have ability in close-combat that Predators don't, but don't you lose some of your ranged threat? They also have a lower front armour, no?

 

What don't you like about Predators?

[Brother_Byhlli]

Mephiston is very, very, very well-equipped to take on large infantry blocks in melee.

 

Why? Unless you mean multi-charging with another unit, such as an Assault Squad. Seems to me that he's still just one character and a large body of infantry stands a good chance of landing wounds on him. Am I missing something?

[thade]

Mephiston is very, very, very well-equipped to take on large infantry blocks in melee.

 

Why? Unless you mean multi-charging with another unit, such as an Assault Squad. Seems to me that he's still just one character and a large body of infantry stands a good chance of landing wounds on him. Am I missing something?

He's I6 and goes even before Captains. Any models he kills won't be swinging at him. How big is the squad?

 

He is WS7, so IG squads will hit him on 5s, everybody else on 4s. So let's be optimistic and say half the squad hits (4+). How big is the squad?

 

He is T6, so the majority of the attacking unit will wound on 6. Divide the squad's size by 6...that's how many wounds get through.

 

He has a 2+ save. Very likely he'll ignore all normal infantry attacks.

 

The power fist/klaw will wound him once or twice...and he's got five wounds. In return he will reliably kill five to six infantry models. He wins combat by a good margin, and they take a morale check down by that margin. I see squads break and get Swept by Mephiston - no matter who charged - very, very often.

 

My favorite Mephiston moment ever was when he was charged by three Killa Canz and a 30-strong unit of Ork Boyz. Mephiston went to S10, tore the Canz apart, and two of them exploded (the third just a wreck). The resulting explosions killed a LOT of Boyz which broke. He swept them off the table...all before either party was able to take a single swing at him.

 

Meph is a bamf.

[Brother_Byhlli]

Mephiston is very, very, very well-equipped to take on large infantry blocks in melee.

 

Why? Unless you mean multi-charging with another unit, such as an Assault Squad. Seems to me that he's still just one character and a large body of infantry stands a good chance of landing wounds on him. Am I missing something?

He's I6 and goes even before Captains. Any models he kills won't be swinging at him. How big is the squad?

 

He is WS7, so IG squads will hit him on 5s, everybody else on 4s. So let's be optimistic and say half the squad hits (4+). How big is the squad?

 

He is T6, so the majority of the attacking unit will wound on 6. Divide the squad's size by 6...that's how many wounds get through.

 

He has a 2+ save. Very likely he'll ignore all normal infantry attacks.

 

The power fist/klaw will wound him once or twice...and he's got five wounds. In return he will reliably kill five to six infantry models. He wins combat by a good margin, and they take a morale check down by that margin. I see squads break and get Swept by Mephiston - no matter who charged - very, very often.

 

My favorite Mephiston moment ever was when he was charged by three Killa Canz and a 30-strong unit of Ork Boyz. Mephiston went to S10, tore the Canz apart, and two of them exploded (the third just a wreck). The resulting explosions killed a LOT of Boyz which broke. He swept them off the table...all before either party was able to take a single swing at him.

 

Meph is a bamf.

 

Orks with more than ten Boyz in the squad are Fearless.

 

I regularly play against 30-strong units of Ork Boyz. Let's assume that Mephiston charges. He's in base-to-base with what, five models around him, plus everything around them, plus everything around them. To my knowledge, depending on how particular your opponent is about the 2" range for being in combat, the absolute minimum models that can potentially be in base-contact with one model, all models having a 20mm base, is 36. (While trying to confirm this, I came across this interesting image. It shows you how the models fit around. I propose that an additional ring around the outside can also be made with each model in the ring within 2" of the six models in contact with the central hexagon. That would bring the total potential combatants to 60. I just can't prove it yet. <_< )

 

So, fighting against a 30-strong unit of Boyz. Mephiston gets Unleash Rage. He has five attacks, he hits on 3+ with a reroll to hit. He wounds on a 2+ and ignores armour saves:

 

5 attacks = 5*2/3 + 5*1/3*2/3 = 40/9 hits;

40/9 hits = 40/9*5/6 = 100/27 wounds;

100/27 wounds = 100/27 kills = 3.70 kills.

 

Let's round that up to 4 kills.

 

26 Ork Boyz (assuming they don't have a Warboss or a Nob with Klaw and assuming they don't have two close-combat weapons) have two attacks each, hitting on 4+. They wound on a 6+ and allow armour saves:

 

52 attacks = 52*1/2 = 26 hits;

26 hits = 26*1/6 = 13/3 wounds;

13/3 wounds = 13/3*1/6 = 13/18 failed armour saves = 0.72 wounds.

 

Again, let's round that up to 1 wound.

 

So the unit of Boyz with no Warboss and no Nob, with only two attacks basic, lose combat by three. But Orks are Fearless. They don't run away. They stay and fight until they have less than ten models. So they take armour saves for every point they lose combat by - in this case 3. Statistically 2/3 models will fail their 5+ armour save, so now there are 24 Orks left.

 

The problem here is that Mephiston literally cannot kill more than five models per turn, not counting models that die due to combat resolution. So we're realistically looking at three turns being locked in combat before you can get free. And that's assuming, as I said, that Mephiston gets Unleash Rage every turn and that there are no special characters with nasty weapons in the unit. Add a Nob with a power klaw in there and Mephiston is taking an additional 1.25 wounds - add that to the 0.72 wounds and you're looking at two wounds from five. I would expect Mephiston to turn out the loser in this combat.

 

If, however, you include a unit of five Assault Squad Space Marines with a power weapon or power fist, things suddenly start to look much more rosy for the Lord of Death. :P

 

I guess he can make a big difference and I don't imagine there are many things that will stand up to him one-on-one, but I think against sizeable squads where he's limited to an absolute maximum of five kills that he absolutely needs to be backed up by another squad.

 

Hmmm. Well, that's an interesting lesson learned. For me, anyway. I can't speak for you guys - if you even managed to read this far! :lol:

 

Given your scenario against the Killa Kanz and the Ork Boyz, you need to have killed 20 or more of them in order for them to break. Did you honestly kill that many with a couple of S3 explosions?

[Brother_Byhlli]

knife&fork just reminded me of Techmarines.

 

Assuming that one of our Elites slots is automatically given over to Sanguinary Priests, is there anything in the Elites section that can rival the Techmarine for viability in a mechanised list? Terminators are outdone by Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are best saved for jump infantry lists. Furioso Dreadnoughts, Chaplains and Sternguard all have a shout, I suppose.

 

What are your thoughts? I'd quite like to fit a Sternguard Squad or two with Razorbacks into a list. Is it worth taking one single Techmarine with a few Servitors? In a game where you have so many vehicles, can one Techmarine make a significant difference?

[Nit]

[*]I've never played around with Land Speeders ... I don't know if that sort of unit fits with a mechanised list.

Why not? I used such list and has been satisfied

 

1 Librarian, 100 pts (Shield of Sanguinius; Unleash Rage)

 

1 Sanguinary Priest, 50 pts (Power Armour)

 

5 Assault Squad, 201 pts (Meltagun; Power Fist)

1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun; Hunter Killer Missile; Searchlight)

 

5 Assault Squad, 201 pts (Meltagun; Power Fist)

1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun; Hunter Killer Missile; Searchlight)

 

5 Assault Squad, 201 pts (Meltagun; Power Fist)

1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun; Hunter Killer Missile; Searchlight)

 

2 Land Speeder Squadron, 200 pts (Multi-Melta x2; Typhoon Missile Launcher x2)

 

2 Land Speeder Squadron, 200 pts (Multi-Melta x2; Typhoon Missile Launcher x2)

 

1 Land Speeder Squadron, 200 pts (Multi-Melta x2; Typhoon Missile Launcher x2)

 

5 Devastator Squad, 231 pts (Missile Launcher x4)

1 Razorback (Lascannon and TL Plasmagun; Hunter Killer Missile; Searchlight)

 

5 Devastator Squad, 130 pts (Missile Launcher x4)

 

1 Predator, 136 pts (Autocannon; Lascannon x2; Searchlight)

 

Total Roster Cost: 1750

[Midnightmare]

I'm going down the mech route now myself; usually with 3 Razors at 1500-1750 together with twin Baal's, and usually with Mr Mephy. I also run Chappy/DC in a rhino but find it gets shot up quickly, so I'm thinking of dropping Meph for a LRC. I'm also thinking of using a dual Raider list for fun (I have found my very old LR in my dads garage, a MK 1 whoop whoop <_< ) so thinking of something like this for kicks:-

1750(ish)

TWIN RAIDER LIST

------

Reclusiarch

DC x 9

PF

LRC with M/M and E/A

------

Priest

RAS x 9

PF

Melta

LR with E/A

------

RAS

Las/Plas RZB

------

RAS

Las/Plas RZB

------

Auto/Las Pred

------

2 x M/M Attack Bikes

------

2 x M/M Attack Bikes

 

Not many Razors I know but more troops than I usually run, and the RAS/Priest actually have a bit of bite. I also think I have some points left for melta's in the Razor squads.

[Brother_Byhlli]

I was thinking of running the Death Company in a Land Raider Redeemer, probably reserving them and praying to the dice gods that they don't come on until turn three.

 

That gives the opponent plenty of time to be crossing the board, getting shot up by the lascannons, plasma guns and meltaguns before they run smack into a wall of flamestorm fire and some slavering lunatics in midnight-black armour.

 

:/

[Mattsama]

I was thinking of running the Death Company in a Land Raider Redeemer, probably reserving them and praying to the dice gods that they don't come on until turn three.

 

That gives the opponent plenty of time to be crossing the board, getting shot up by the lascannons, plasma guns and meltaguns before they run smack into a wall of flamestorm fire and some slavering lunatics in midnight-black armour.

 

:/

 

I run my DC (10 strong, 2xTHw/Bolters, 2xPower weapons) and Reclusiarch in a LRR. It's effective, but I've noticed that with out a second "OMG Land Raider!!" target, if I don't get to assault by turn 2 it's normally immobilized or dead before they can make it. Also thinking I'm going to cut down to like 6 and run 4 with power weapons...

 

Also, I run vindicators in pairs, and I have great luck with them. There is something unsettling for your opponent to watch you move 12 then fire the ordnance.

[Midnightmare]

I was thinking of running the Death Company in a Land Raider Redeemer, probably reserving them and praying to the dice gods that they don't come on until turn three.

 

That gives the opponent plenty of time to be crossing the board, getting shot up by the lascannons, plasma guns and meltaguns before they run smack into a wall of flamestorm fire and some slavering lunatics in midnight-black armour.

 

:/

I'm not too sure about the Redeemer due to its short range, but I'm going to magnetize the Hurricane Bolters/Flamestorms (once I figure out how!) so I'll get the choices. As for the second Raider I fancy the Godhammer pattern as ordinarliy the other patterns trump it but I recon it will complement the other one well with its greater AT fire power.

 

As for using the one, the only thing about reserving DC in a Raider at lower points limits what I play at, is it is a lot of points (presumably there will be a Chappy on board ;) ) possibly coming in very late while the rest of your army has to deal with your opponents entire army. This tactic may be better suited to the SR? Its one of the reasons I am going Raider over Raven is the survivability. I love the idea of the Storm Raven but I think you need more than one, not the case with the Land Raider. That said I'm sure I'll end up with one in my figure case lol

[knife&fork]

knife&fork just reminded me of Techmarines.

 

Assuming that one of our Elites slots is automatically given over to Sanguinary Priests, is there anything in the Elites section that can rival the Techmarine for viability in a mechanised list? Terminators are outdone by Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are best saved for jump infantry lists. Furioso Dreadnoughts, Chaplains and Sternguard all have a shout, I suppose.

 

What are your thoughts? I'd quite like to fit a Sternguard Squad or two with Razorbacks into a list. Is it worth taking one single Techmarine with a few Servitors? In a game where you have so many vehicles, can one Techmarine make a significant difference?

 

Elite slots are indeed valuable and crowded. If the techmarine didn't take up a force org slot he would be a nobrainer, as it is I think he only belong in specialized builds that tries to maximize the benefits.

 

I've had something like this in mind (actually my next project);

 

Techmarine with harness and servitors + Shield Lib mounted in a godhammer land raider (bought for a dev squad)

 

Flank him with two autolas preds and a couple of lasplas or TLLC razors

 

One or two missile dev squads (in a fortified ruin if you're lucky)

 

Add fast moving elements, TLAC or TLHF razors, attack bikes, speeders... etc.

 

 

Large hull of landraider maximizes the shield bubble. Coversave from preds/razors together with the techmarines repair ability and no space to DS a melta makes for a very difficult to shut down raider.

[Astorath the Grim]

What draws you to Dreadnoughts? Why do you prefer them to Predators? I guess they have ability in close-combat that Predators don't, but don't you lose some of your ranged threat? They also have a lower front armour, no?

 

Rifle dreads are a total waste of space in a blood angels army, and only marginally affective outside of grey knights. Expensive and a pain to convert...not to mention utterly boring to field. Without the blood fists or blood talons, its mediocre at best in assault...we seriously have better options in our heavy support.