Battle of The Fang

[saphius]

So this book was good until about the last two chapters. Then it got terrible. There are seven pages left, and I'm unsure I'll even read them. If it wasn't a book about Space Wolves I would probably list it as the worst book I ever read.

 

SPOILER ALERT

 

Here's why: So Malgus shows up and gets shot by long fangs, and entire IG company, assaulted by bloodclaws, and shot up by Hunters. Not to mention enough firepower from dreadnaughts alone to 'destroy and entire company of space marines in seconds'. And just walks up and kills everything with no effort. Flick of the wrist, and stuff gets crunched, fist squeeze things get squished, look at stuff and it dies or turns to chaos.

 

- Ok, got it, primarchs are unstopable. Check. Why Malgus didn't walk in against the entire chapter, I'm unsure because nothing can even hurt him. At least, that's how I'm feeling at this point. But, either way, got it.

 

Then he goes and does some stuff, and kills Wolf Priest with a flick of the wrist.

 

The he gets assaulted by a Wolf Lord, a Master Rune priest, and two wolf guard. All of which in TDA. It talks about how they catch Malgus off guard and fight him with absolute perfection, so good in fact they are destroying their own bodies. And are able to stab his leg. Then he 'remembers he's a primarch' and kills a wolf guard by flicking his wrist, kills the other one, kills the rune priest by looking at him, and is about to step on the wolf lord when Bjorn shows up.

 

Now at this point I take you back to where he took on more firepower than an entire company of space marines could, with ease mind you, just from dreadnaughts, not including all the fire from the long fangs and the entire IG company, as well as the hunters and the assault from the claws, and attacks from rune priests. Why do I bring this up? Here's why...

 

Well Bjorn shows up and shoots him with A plasma cannon. And it really hurts Malgus. Granted, he shoots him a ton but again, A PLASMA CANNON, when this dude just took everything half a wolves company, all the dreads in the fang, etc... etc... with ease, somehow one plasma cannon is too much for him to handle. So he gets way hurt his face burns up and hes about to bite the dust. Then.... 'he remembers he's a primarch.'

 

And proceeds to fight Bjorn after his kills the wolf lord. Now Bjorn shoots him like 100 times at point blank range and stabs the crap outta him with his lightning claw. Bjorn marches him to the edge of the top of the fang, about to push him off and kill him when again, 'he remembers he's a primarch' and crushes Bjorns plasma cannon, looks at his other arm and crushes it and picks him up with one hand and is about to throw him off the edge of the Fang when, yet again, another wolf lord shows up and they all go tumbling off the edge.

 

So, yes, they fall like a thousand kilometers and land. Bjorn fell somewhere else or something. So like all the wolf lords bones are broken, but he's in TDA so still alive, and Magnus has lost all his armor from the fall.

 

Ok. Got it. Magnus has no armor anymore, time to do some damage. So Magnus ends up getting shot in the chest by a storm bolter like 20 times, and punched by a power fist like fifty times in the chest while he's in agony against the cliff wall, without armor mind you, and then guess what?.... he 'remembers he's a primarch' and kills the wolf lord by sneezing or something.

 

Ok, does anyone see any inconsistency here? He can take on everything, but not one plasma cannon, his armor can't even stand a fall off a cliff - when TDA can, but can take more fire than, well, anything. And even when he's naked he can get shot at point blank, and punched by a wolf lords powerfist like 50 times and not even flinch.

 

I get it, Primarchs are all powerful or whatever, but the inconsistency and poor writing really killed this book for me. It was pretty good the first 200 pages but it all went to hell in the following. The way the primarch can just 'remember he's a primarch' and be unstoppable, but then forgets like every two minutes doesn't make for good writing. By the end I was just thinking, oh you almost got him, better hope he doesn't remember who he is or your screwed.

 

Yea, wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Love the Wolves. Huge fan. Been playing them for years. Will continue to do so. Some aspects of the book were good, but it was a big let down in the end.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If Russ had've been doing all the pwning, would you be as disappointed?

 

*coughs* Well let me remind you of A Thousand Sons:

Remember, Magnus is a Primarch AND the most powerful psyker after the Emperor, yet Russ walks through the psychic storm and proceeds to fold Magnus up like an origami bird.

 

If you are comfortable with one and not the other, then you are being parochial.

 

+++

 

I have just got into WarMachine. The faction I am playing is Retribution of Scyrah, who are Elves. It is quite exciting for someone who has been with one company for decades to discover a new thing.

So after getting my faction army book, I got the main rulebook, which has the other factions armies in it. When looking at their stuff, I cringe and think 'wowee! how am I supposed to beat that? is this game balanced?! that faction is broken!!'

I did not have that same reaction when looking at all the beardy combinations for Retribution.

 

My point is, it is very easy to see flaws/over-powered'ness/brokenness and even Loch Ness in other peoples enemy/rival factions, whilst ignoring your own.

 

If I did not acknowledge that Templar Hammernators with re-rolls to hit are better than UM ones, I would be unfair. Similarly, Templar Dakkanators can take two CML per five men, and get tank-hunters, meaning s9 krak missiles and power fists and s5 storm bolters against AV, plus re-rolls to hit against things with a WS.

 

That would be unfair of me.

 

+++

 

Remember, GW has trickled out cool stories with the view of writing the fluff of the GrimDark universe. These stories were not always in harmony with one another. In RL, we can argue about things, because it is all part of one coin. In GrimDarkia, things are in complete contradiction to one another.

 

Some UM fans have been a real nuisance to talk to about fluff, because UM have the most consistent and coherent fluff, and they bash you over the head with that. Is that what GW intended? That all non-UM based Chapters are just wannabe UM but really failures at it? Of course not. GW was just trying to build up how cool UM are, and they are cool, but unfortunately did it at the expense of ever other Marine faction out there. Which is really silly.

 

GW cannot write fluff that is consistent and coherent. Maybe they get too into it and that is why we get this massive clash within the fluff?

 

When GW and BL realise how cool it is to expand on these old stories, they are stuck with writing within the framework of a bad story.

It is much easier to bulldoze a dilapidated house than to try to renovate it. But because we and they are so interested in the old story/house, instead of writing something that actually makes sense, they have to write something that conforms to these logical inconsistencies.

 

+++

 

You don't have to like BotF. You don't even need my permission for that. What I am trying to say is, try not to expect perfection in GW and BL, especially when they have to try to work with old stories that were written without the whole in mind.

:D

 

Then you will be able to enjoy the offerings that we do get, and gloss over the inconsistencies :P

[saphius]

I guess that's not bad advice. It's hard for me to take because I'm very analytical and like things to be uniform.

 

I'm not saying I'm not ok with Malgus kicking the wolves butts, but just do it consistently. I felt it was written poorly. Also, if he was so kick ass, why didn't he just walk in when Russ left and destroy what was left of the legion? It seems he cold have.

 

I actually enjoyed a lot of the first part of the book. I felt it portrayed the wolves well. How Malgus was able to manipulate them because of their hatred for him, and also because of their genetic make up. It showed how the wolves were really lacking without Russ because I feel he would have caught on to the ploy and it never would have happened. It was cool to see the wolves make a mistake, a huge one, because of their single mindedness almost. If you think about it, Russ may have left because it's the only way they will learn. I mean there is a lot of things to consider but overall I thought the premise of the story was great. I thought Malgus' personality/character was awesome. The things I didn't like were the glaring inconsistencies in the book. I guess I have a hard time feeling like the story is 'real' or 'involving' when I'm seeing such oversight in the story, even if you look at it as one piece of work in and of itself.

 

Guess I just want to feel the 'realness' of the story rather than feel like it's been made like a nonsensical anime in print.

 

I appreciate your response though. Maybe I'll pick up another book and give it a shot. Sadly, this was the first BL book I've read and hate to be disappointed.

[Grimtooth]

Magnus drew away every single company except one so his attack would be successful on the Fang. He would never had been able to do what he did had the Fang been fully defended.

 

Furthermore, Magnus' grasp of realspace is pretty well represented as he gets weaker and weaker through the attack. Him realizing his power time and time again just represents that he truly has no clue if can be destroyed. It looks more of a case of his humanity feeling the dpain and damage but the Emperor's will incarnae establishing itself time and time again.

[Max_Dammit]

And why did he not walk in to the fang?

 

The wards that where keeping warp magic out, he is pure warp now so those wads prevent him manifesting in the fang, also there was only one or a few rune priests in the fang, more of them would have made it a lot harder on Magnus.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

If Russ had've been doing all the pwning, would you be as disappointed?

 

*coughs* Well let me remind you of A Thousand Sons:

Remember, Magnus is a Primarch AND the most powerful psyker after the Emperor, yet Russ walks through the psychic storm and proceeds to fold Magnus up like an origami bird.

 

If you are comfortable with one and not the other, then you are being parochial.

 

That we are comfortable with one and not the other is a big assumption to make - methinks the chip is on thy shoulder and not ours.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If Russ had've been doing all the pwning, would you be as disappointed?

 

*coughs* Well let me remind you of A Thousand Sons:

Remember, Magnus is a Primarch AND the most powerful psyker after the Emperor, yet Russ walks through the psychic storm and proceeds to fold Magnus up like an origami bird.

 

If you are comfortable with one and not the other, then you are being parochial.

 

That we are comfortable with one and not the other is a big assumption to make - methinks the chip is on thy shoulder and not ours.

 

I was putting out a suggestion. Saphius did not like the book and often mentioned Magnus pwning Wolves. What I said was a reasonable logic check.

"You don't like X owning, but what if Y did it?"

Saphius said that was not the case, so that is the end of it.

 

I don't see why you would think I have a chip on my shoulder? I have just wrote lines and lines telling Saphius to hold the writing a bit more loosely.

 

The trail I went sniffing up [my big assumption], turned out to be cold [with Saphius saying it wasn't so]

 

:lol:

[Karack Blackstone]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

All of the primarchs had roles to fill, Magnus was meant to be the emperors seer/psyker/sorcerer. Turning to Tzeench only made him stronger.... I am not surprised by what he could accomplish.

[saphius]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

 

This may be valid. Not written really well, in the book I mean, but a good point.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

Yes, it is good to reflect on one's own potential influences and motivations, but it is rarely suitable to assume the motivations of others.

 

Catching the right pitch is critical in a logic check and, whatever the intentions behind it, Marshall Wilhelm's post missed the mark - hey ho <_<

[Sarapham]

I dont mean to be a bitch about it saphius but.. Magnus... Magnus ^_^

[Simo429]

I dont mean to be a bitch about it saphius but.. Magnus... Magnus :D

Praise Russ someone pointed that out.

 

For me this is still the very best Space Wolf book, I didn't like Prospero Burns the first time I read it but after trying again when I'd read Battle of the fang I found I enjoyed it a lot more having been led through the new vocabulary of the Space Wolves by actual Space Wolves rather than by some Historian who I never really cared about because I just wanted to get to the Astartes.

 

Black Library often find it difficult to guage the power levels of characters, from space marines to custodes but I see no reason why a primarch couldn't rip through astartes but his psychic defences would still struggle to withstand the tiny super nova that is a plasma cannon blast.

[Karack Blackstone]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

 

This may be valid. Not written really well, in the book I mean, but a good point.

 

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

Yes, it is good to reflect on one's own potential influences and motivations, but it is rarely suitable to assume the motivations of others.

 

Catching the right pitch is critical in a logic check and, whatever the intentions behind it, Marshall Wilhelm's post missed the mark - hey ho :)

 

Thank you saphius for the consideration, and I personally justified some rather unclear writing with what I wrote in reply and quote there.

 

Indeed, Durfast. However, Marshall Wilhelm seemed to be testing the waters as it were with that potential sniff fest. That he did not find what he was looking for is rather interesting in that he has apparently left the issue alone. That shows a good level of personal development on his part.

 

Back on topic, I personally think it was the savagery of the Vlka Fenryka assault that gave Magnus pause in all this; that really seems to be the point. That, and maybe that Space Wolves can fight so well as to drive their bodies to ruin and death, even in the face of totally insurmountable odds, and actually wound a Primarch. Takes sixes to wound a T6 model with S4, I think: fives or sixes, depending upon things.

[Nrthstar]

I personally loved the book from start to finish, but as to the issue at hand there's my rationalization. Magnus is made of pure warp energy. To the point that to move about and have a physical effect on our world he had to use smothers body. The warp is an unknown energy, that fluctuates in power and consistency. Magnus, before turning was one of the most powerful conductors of this energy, yet he was raised by the benevolent Emperor. He was raised to see limits, to know pain like a human, but now he has power that he doesn't know the extent of it. Magnus kept 'finding' more power with a bit of surprise every time because he has no idea what the limit really is and the psychological effects of the pain was rather debilitating. If you've ever been kicked in the ribs enough, you'd have a decent idea of how that works.

 

 

Typed on my phone, so the autocorrect most likely mixed some words up, my apologies.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

 

This may be valid. Not written really well, in the book I mean, but a good point.

 

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

Yes, it is good to reflect on one's own potential influences and motivations, but it is rarely suitable to assume the motivations of others.

 

Catching the right pitch is critical in a logic check and, whatever the intentions behind it, Marshall Wilhelm's post missed the mark - hey ho ;)

 

Indeed, Durfast. However, Marshall Wilhelm seemed to be testing the waters as it were with that potential sniff fest. That he did not find what he was looking for is rather interesting in that he has apparently left the issue alone. That shows a good level of personal development on his part.

 

In RL, it is easy enough to be misunderstood, though usually easier to clarify. Online, it is heartening that someone actually sees what another is doing, considering the severity that comes from text alone. :) :D

 

As Karack Blackstone described it, so it was. I thought to start somewhere, in trying to help Saphius be, if at all possible, reconciled with BotF.

 

So whilst assuming motivations and influences might not be how others would have approached it, I do, and this time it worked.

On another day, maybe not.

Whenever I tell jokes, sometimes they backfire and people don't laugh and/or think I have gone too far. I wear that and own it.

I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it, would be my response ;)

 

+++

 

Life is full of things that get us excited or angry. But if that is what fills our sails, we will be blown all over place. I chose, and the emotions follow. I can even enjoy washing up once I have chosen to do it. But do I ever feel like washing up? :P Well, maybe less often than I actually would need to feel like it. :lol:

 

I was told by a long-term happily married man, "Sometimes I don't feel like I am married [such as when he has argued with his wife, or their love life is dry]. But I never let that feeling govern my actions."

 

Anyway, I don't mean to give a lecture, especially if it isn't helpful to anyone. It is nice that Karack has seen my actions truly.

 

"I judge another man by his actions, but I am not so harsh with myself and judge me by my motivations [even if I did the same or worse thing as another man.]"

 

Karack Blackstone has seen both my motivations and actions, and online, in the harshness of text. Thank you, brother.

 

+++

 

Anyway, lets continue talking about BotF ;)

[Karack Blackstone]

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

 

This may be valid. Not written really well, in the book I mean, but a good point.

 

I've noted Marshall Wilhelm's posting modus operandi for a while. His favorite thing to do is to start with a check to make sure the mind is not being overruled by emotions.

I must admit, I've started doing that for a while now as well. Making sure thoughts are occurring, yet not being forced along certain lines by emotions is actually a rewarding experience when one check oneself.

 

The single biggest issue that I have with the book is, how does a primarch forget he's a primarch? Well, he was physically manifesting, and doing things that took great power. Maybe the point was the savagery of the Space Wolves assault, that gave him pause. I think that's the core point the author was getting at.

 

Yes, it is good to reflect on one's own potential influences and motivations, but it is rarely suitable to assume the motivations of others.

 

Catching the right pitch is critical in a logic check and, whatever the intentions behind it, Marshall Wilhelm's post missed the mark - hey ho ;)

 

Indeed, Durfast. However, Marshall Wilhelm seemed to be testing the waters as it were with that potential sniff fest. That he did not find what he was looking for is rather interesting in that he has apparently left the issue alone. That shows a good level of personal development on his part.

 

In RL, it is easy enough to be misunderstood, though usually easier to clarify. Online, it is heartening that someone actually sees what another is doing, considering the severity that comes from text alone. :) :D

 

As Karack Blackstone described it, so it was. I thought to start somewhere, in trying to help Saphius be, if at all possible, reconciled with BotF.

 

So whilst assuming motivations and influences might not be how others would have approached it, I do, and this time it worked.

On another day, maybe not.

Whenever I tell jokes, sometimes they backfire and people don't laugh and/or think I have gone too far. I wear that and own it.

I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it, would be my response ;)

 

+++

 

Life is full of things that get us excited or angry. But if that is what fills our sails, we will be blown all over place. I chose, and the emotions follow. I can even enjoy washing up once I have chosen to do it. But do I ever feel like washing up? :P Well, maybe less often than I actually would need to feel like it. :lol:

 

I was told by a long-term happily married man, "Sometimes I don't feel like I am married [such as when he has argued with his wife, or their love life is dry]. But I never let that feeling govern my actions."

 

Anyway, I don't mean to give a lecture, especially if it isn't helpful to anyone. It is nice that Karack has seen my actions truly.

 

"I judge another man by his actions, but I am not so harsh with myself and judge me by my motivations [even if I did the same or worse thing as another man.]"

 

Karack Blackstone has seen both my motivations and actions, and online, in the harshness of text. Thank you, brother.

 

+++

 

Anyway, lets continue talking about BotF ;)

 

I am glad I read you correctly, Marshal Wilhelm. It makes your posts here for quite some time become much clearer to read your reply to my theory (theorem?).

 

As far as Battle of the Fang goes, I still don't quite see why the author, who occasionally posts here, wrote things this way. There's at least one thread I can recall seeing him say that things towards the end may seem a little out of order or difficult to understand. The recurring thought that comes to my mind is that Magnus was basically fighting with all his focus concentrated at each moment, microscopically increasing in power as he truly learned what the body he had was capable of. If the reader recalls, there was little he had apparently found out about his limitations up until the point that Magnus engaged the Vlka Fenryka forces, and supporting Kaerls.

 

The biggest issue I have with the BotF is that there's no apparent regard for a Chapter that has always held Humanity in high standing to not remember that they once too were human, and those that fight beside them, the Kaerls, are not remembered well even after all this. Maybe it's that the training of Space Marines in general limits the thinking of said Space Marines. I believe a friend indicated some time back offline that the SM impant into the mind contains chem-induced thought controllers in the form of inhibitors to certain thoughts. Anyone else read this in some of the various codeci?

[saphius]

I dont mean to be a bitch about it saphius but.. Magnus... Magnus :P

 

lol

 

I have a hard time remembering their names because they're all just 'Traitor' anyway.

[Valtonis]

the Primarchs are suppose to be killing SMs like they were nothing, the stories that have referenced the Istvaan Massacre all described the Primarchs are unstoppable forces of nature that none of the SMs (traitor or loyal) were able to stand against.

what i disliked about Battle of the Fang was the Mary Sue plot amor that made the ending possible, it is just a lame cop out where the author did not have any idea how to end the book in favour of the protagonists given the near invincibility of the antagonist

[Grimtooth]

I think one thing that has to be mentioned is that Magnus knows pain, he knows defeat. No matter that he is a product of the Emperor's will manifested, he has experienced his mortality. So no matter the vast powers that he can wield, he has a psychological chink in his armor. One that haltingly caused him to stumble in his final fight.