Blood Scorpion Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hi guys, sorry if this has been discussed to death before but I've just been wondering how viable a lone Paladin may be. I'm thinking give him a master-crafted Daemon Hammer and for 60 points he can run around trying to hammer holes in tanks or tying up shooty squads in combat. Could even Deep Strike him in and drop a S5 pie plate on top of some squisy infantry with Holocaust before you start to swing the hammer the next turn. So has anyone tried this out or even had success? I can imagine some heroic actions being performed almost like they are in the middle of one of their quests! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Hi guys, sorry if this has been discussed to death before but I've just been wondering how viable a lone Paladin may be. I'm thinking give him a master-crafted Daemon Hammer and for 60 points he can run around trying to hammer holes in tanks or tying up shooty squads in combat. Could even Deep Strike him in and drop a S5 pie plate on top of some squisy infantry with Holocaust before you start to swing the hammer the next turn. So has anyone tried this out or even had success? I can imagine some heroic actions being performed almost like they are in the middle of one of their quests! Viable yes optimal no. If you are going to take them do so with a hammer as they can threaten vehicles then, they can sit on objectives nicely too however they aren't really that hard to kill, Your best bet is to hide them out of line of site which isn't hard to do. I don't like spending 55 points on an objective sitter however it has it's uses. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2863596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 So, fluffwise I will be compelled to use "single Paladin units", at least for friendly games...as my handful of Custodians (counts-as Paladins) aren't the kind of guys that "work in units" as told by A D-B. Some users on this forum have have great success with them. They're a single model which is far easier to hide than a full unit or a transport, completely hiding them from LOS at all. They're 2+/5++, 2 wounds, and an annoying thing for your opponent to have to focus anti-tank fire on when they have other things in your force which are largers and scarier and in their face. They cost around half that of a minimized Strike Squad and are easier to hide on that objective. In addition, those left over points can be used to bolster your other units which you press ahead with (keeping their attention away from your late-game DSing objective holders). A few things to keep in mind: Psychic Communion can help keep them off the table a bit longer; they can either slog on or DS down to a back-field servo skull; they are a unit that does NOT always consist of one model, so ICs can join them at need (I can't think of one, but there it is); they are a single model that can fire a S5 pie plate psychic shooting attack. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2863673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoaDirty Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Somewhat related, if you have the points left for two Solodins, is it better to group them up (maybe some double hammertime), or keep them separate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2863693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Somewhat related, if you have the points left for two Solodins, is it better to group them up (maybe some double hammertime), or keep them separate? This depends on a few things. Separate they take up two Force Org slots instead of one...if you don't have Draigo, that's two Elite slots. Something to keep in mind. Separate each of them can hold (hide on) their own objective and throw out their own S5 pie plate, or they can hide on the same one and if one gets spotted and takes fire, the other one is still protected. Together you have slightly (very slightly, possibly not noticeable) increased durability as you can split the wounds between them and stick the Instant Death wounds on the guy who already has a wound. Less than five Paladins cannot take weapon upgrades. :D Which is my primary criticism against them. Not to mention their durability suffers being so small (they are more easily overwhelmed with saves to take). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2863696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Scorpion Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Cheers for the comments guys. I'm not really planning on taking Draigo so any Solodins (great name ;)) I recruited would't be scoring units. I was thinking about taking two (or even three FOC slots allowing) and using them as distractions by Deep Striking them in behind enemy fire support squads/tanks/walkers. They may take a Lascannon/Melta in the face but that would be one less unit aiming AP2 shots at my Terminators or Dreadknights that are slowly making their way accross the table. However, if they do survive they get to charge in and hack open a Predator or tie up some Long Fangs etc. Could even contest Objectives if they are lucky with their saving rolls. So do you think this is a worthwhile tactic and good use of 120-180 points? (I'm aiming for a 1750 point list by the way) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Interesting. Typically DSing sacrifice units aren't just red herrings there to take a lascannon shot. ;) Typically they're dropping in there to (hopefully) nuke something before they die! The cost of a Paladin is pretty step to protect a Rhino...and I'd assert not very effective at it either, as when he DSs in he's just a storm bolter that will scatter (likely wildly) and not be able to charge anything on his first turn. This is very reminiscent of a strat that Silent Req used to use, which was DSing a lone Brother Captain in with a Psycannon. He'd land and - wherever he landed - he'd get full usage out of that Psycannon as he's Relentless. Brother Captains now are more durable (2+/4++, multiple wounds instead of one) and much more expensive (they used to be well under a hundred points even with the psycannon)...and since you can DS full units of guys with Psycannons the same price, I don't see much merit to this either anymore. So, honestly, no. I don't really think it's a good tactic as a DSing screen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Scorpion Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Maybe it is a bad idea, but let me try and argue the point before I write it off completely.... Firstly Holocaust can drop a S5 Large Blast after Teleporting in so he can have a (moderate) impact on the turn he arrives. With 2 Wounds and 2+/5++ save he's got a chance of surviving, especially if he's yet another high priority target for your opponent to choose between. If your opponent does decide to shoot a unit with AP2 weapons at him that unit will often have multiple AP2 shots (Devs/Vendetta etc) and therefore may waste some of these shots that otherwise might have killed 2 or 3 Terminators if fired at a larger squad. With a Daemon Hammer he's potentially S10 in combat and will more than make his points back if he gets the charge on a tank that prefers not to move (Dakka Preds, Basilisks etc). Finally, he's only 60 points so it's not a massive issue if he ends up in the Warp due to an unlucky DS. I'm not proposing to DS him infront of my advancing army to provide cover saves, that would be a waste of points. I'm thinking he'd try and appear right next to their fire support/objective sitters (hopefully using them as cover against the rest of his army) and cause them a headache or two before the rest of my army catches up. In some games I can see him getting killed before he gets a chance to swing, but the psychological impact of having him in Reserve may just cause my opponent to be more defensive than he would have otherwise been. I'm thinking he'd almost be a wannbe Marbo in TDA, and I'd have 3! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Since my role here has become devil's advocate, I'll do my best for you. :lol: Firstly Holocaust can drop a S5 Large Blast after Teleporting in so he can have a (moderate) impact on the turn he arrives. Probably next to none against most armies, as a full-scatter S5 pie plate will do little to nothing to AV11...though you might get lucky. With 2 Wounds and 2+/5++ save he's got a chance of surviving, especially if he's yet another high priority target for your opponent to choose between. If he takes twelve wounds, he'll fail two of them. This discounts lucky lascannon shots from Tac squads hiding in Rhinos, which his 5++ may not save him from at all. If your opponent does decide to shoot a unit with AP2 weapons at him that unit will often have multiple AP2 shots (Devs/Vendetta etc) and therefore may waste some of these shots that otherwise might have killed 2 or 3 Terminators if fired at a larger squad. That single lascannon shot will either kill one terminator with no upgrades or one Paladin with a hammer. With a Daemon Hammer he's potentially S10 in combat and will more than make his points back if he gets the charge on a tank that prefers not to move (Dakka Preds, Basilisks etc). Finally, he's only 60 points so it's not a massive issue if he ends up in the Warp due to an unlucky DS. If he DSs in and scatters in a way that behooves you, your opponent will either riddle him with fire and take him down, or move away from him. You might be able to play some games with Paladins on each flank (so no matter which way he goes, you've got your S10 Paladin there) but you'll need two stacks of Psychic Communion to really ensure they arrive altogether on Turn 2 to facilitate this. I'm not saying doing try it: definitely do. I am saying I'm skeptical. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Scorpion Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 With 2 Wounds and 2+/5++ save he's got a chance of surviving, especially if he's yet another high priority target for your opponent to choose between. If he takes twelve wounds, he'll fail two of them. This discounts lucky lascannon shots from Tac squads hiding in Rhinos, which his 5++ may not save him from at all. If your opponent does decide to shoot a unit with AP2 weapons at him that unit will often have multiple AP2 shots (Devs/Vendetta etc) and therefore may waste some of these shots that otherwise might have killed 2 or 3 Terminators if fired at a larger squad. That single lascannon shot will either kill one terminator with no upgrades or one Paladin with a hammer. How many Bolter or equivalent shots would be needed to cause 12 wounds? I know he can fail two saves with snake eyes and die, but if they choose not to allocate AP2 weapons at him statistically it'll take more than one unit to take him out. If they do turn their Vendetta (for example) around to shoot him with 3 Lascannons they may well kill him 3 times over. Those 3 Lascannon shots could easily have taken 2-3 Terminators out so your Paladin has reduced the effectiveness of the Vendetta simply because he's a one man unit. My point is that at worst he has the potential to draw the attention of a sizable chuck of the opposing firepower, potentially interupting their battle plan and giving your main force a little less to worry about for a turn whilst they advance. At best he survives and gets to hit something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I still think that it may be a good choice, depending on size of game, and what else you have in your force. My main issue with solo paladins is that they give up kill points, and I'm proud that my force has so few kill points (5-6 at 1750 points :) ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2864562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
landoro Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 I actually like the idea of a lone Paladin, yet i dont think it is the most tacticaly sound thing to do. However instead of a hammer i am thinking about giving him a warding stave. With a ++2 save they can fire lascannons and whatever else at him, and he will only laugh. True this does make him unable to tackle soem tanks and walkers however, he can tie up a walker in combat and not to mention what he could do to a infantry based unit of heavy weapons. Also if I ever field Draigo, I will instead of feilding a large 10 man, i will instead take mutliple units of 3, or 2 with a five man unit for the psycannon upgrade. Lots of scoring units then and at 3 models they become a ral threat. What say you to this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2865389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Scorpion Posted September 2, 2011 Author Share Posted September 2, 2011 I think the Warding Stave only grants a 2++ in combat so the Lascannon shot will still stand a good chance of killing him. I did think about this but it makes him more expensive and like you say he's not going to really pose a threat to tanks. Even with a Hammer strking at Initiative 1, if you charge him in against heavy weapon infantry squads they don't have Power Weapons. His 2+ save is likely to keep him in the game and he's likely to kill a couple of models and win the combat. Whilst he can't perform a Sweeping Advance he can run the unit off the table (which wont be far if you've DS'd him into your opponents DZ). I felt the Hammer just gave him more targets making him more useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2865400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 He only gets that 2+ invul from the stave in close combat :rolleyes:. So far I've been using a solodin with a sword, giving me the 4+ in close combat (not that it's ever come up). He stays in reserve for as long as possible, either going for a late game lonely objective or very squishy target that likely won't kill him. So far it's been super successful against Eldar and Tyranids... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2865401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 I think keeping him in reserve as long as possible is the best approach from a tactical viewpoint. It's definitely got the coolness factor. G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2865638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontain Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Along a similar thread, I have been contemplating using a solo Apothecary to harass mobs of dudes camping out on far flung objectives. Using Psychic Communion to keep him in reserve as long as possible, he optimally drops in turn 5, and Holocausts whatever squad is sitting atop the objective. When/if return fire comes, it is unlikely to be anything powerful enough to slay him, and feel no pain helps him weather the storm of small fire from the squad nearest him. I mainly fight Imperial Guard, but because of the way the rest of my army functions, it is usual that the vast majority of my force is stacked on one flank, with all of his desperately trying to engage me - except for that one lone blob of ten dudes camping out and telling ghost stories of holy doctors with a taste for carnage. So I don't expect any heavy weapons to be dedicated to him, as two Crusaders, a Stormraven, and a Dreadnought, not counting the two squads of 5 paladins tend to absorb every AT shot he has in his army. Then, provided the Apoth survived, he moves, shoots and assaults, where no guardsmen could hope to kill him. +1 objective for the Grey Knights. It is a strategy I only expect to work once, though, if at all. I also expect it to be spectacular in some way. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Along a similar thread, I have been contemplating using a solo Apothecary to harass mobs of dudes camping out on far flung objectives. Using Psychic Communion to keep him in reserve as long as possible, he optimally drops in turn 5, and Holocausts whatever squad is sitting atop the objective. When/if return fire comes, it is unlikely to be anything powerful enough to slay him, and feel no pain helps him weather the storm of small fire from the squad nearest him. I mainly fight Imperial Guard, but because of the way the rest of my army functions, it is usual that the vast majority of my force is stacked on one flank, with all of his desperately trying to engage me - except for that one lone blob of ten dudes camping out and telling ghost stories of holy doctors with a taste for carnage. So I don't expect any heavy weapons to be dedicated to him, as two Crusaders, a Stormraven, and a Dreadnought, not counting the two squads of 5 paladins tend to absorb every AT shot he has in his army. Then, provided the Apoth survived, he moves, shoots and assaults, where no guardsmen could hope to kill him. +1 objective for the Grey Knights. It is a strategy I only expect to work once, though, if at all. I also expect it to be spectacular in some way. :) I don't want to sound harsh but that may just be the worst way to spend 130 points in the entire codex. If you want something to grab objectives that can deep strike for that cost grab strike squad with a psycannon and a MC Hammer for 125pts. It will shoot over 5 times more and will easily equal holocasuts damage at in shooting but cant fail psychic tests or be nulled and will never die to a single lasccan or melta. Regards, Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontain Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 150 points if you bring a staff. :P Yeah, he is a gross use of points. I think it'd be a fun on-of ploy to use, and each time I have used deep-striking strike or interceptor squads, they are instantly blown off the table by ordnance. With his small footprint, any blasts aimed at him are likely to scatter far enough to miss, and any small arms fire aimed to take him out with weight of fire will bounce off his feel no pain. That is, if they aren't busy falling back after the Holocaust. Death by cannon/melta can be visited upon anyone but the dreadknight or draigo. In any event, all of those weapons are aimed at the two 5x paladin squads and my land raiders. So yes, gross use of points no matter how you cut it. Can't be worse than Crowe though -" fnp and holocuaust" vs "sanctified flame and the perfect warrior". Plus the apoth has a force weapon and termy armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The way I see it is that they are similar to Lone Wolves, except, they lack storm shields, and eternal warrior, and they give up kill points if they die. The only advantage they have is that they can deepstrike. IMO competitively they are not really viable. I just picture these guys dropping in, and geting shot with one melta gun ad giving up a kill point. Now if said Paladin could take a better shooting weapon we could have a discussion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 150 points if you bring a staff. :tu: Yeah, he is a gross use of points. I think it'd be a fun on-of ploy to use, and each time I have used deep-striking strike or interceptor squads, they are instantly blown off the table by ordnance. With his small footprint, any blasts aimed at him are likely to scatter far enough to miss, and any small arms fire aimed to take him out with weight of fire will bounce off his feel no pain. That is, if they aren't busy falling back after the Holocaust. Death by cannon/melta can be visited upon anyone but the dreadknight or draigo. In any event, all of those weapons are aimed at the two 5x paladin squads and my land raiders. So yes, gross use of points no matter how you cut it. Can't be worse than Crowe though -" fnp and holocuaust" vs "sanctified flame and the perfect warrior". Plus the apoth has a force weapon and termy armor. Seriously for that cost just drop a standard dreadknight made scoring by Draigo... That won't die to a melta gun in one hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontain Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Well when you put it that way... >.> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flinch Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I have tried the solo paladins... it was awesome and funny... and I didn't use them effectively. 3 guys with master crafted daemon hammers... spent most of the game MC Hammering singing 'cant touch this' for saves, and yelling "STOP! Hammer Time!" before swinging in melee. Actually, the pie plates (and my singing) turned out to be a large enough distraction for the enemy (Daemons), even though they (pie plates) did almost nothing... so maybe I did use them effectively... They were more of a 'look at me! pay attention to me!' kinda unit than anything else... YMMV Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 They were more of a 'look at me! pay attention to me!' kinda unit than anything else... This is a perfectly valid purpose for a unit. Sometimes "looking scary" is as valuable as doing lots of damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 They are cool but not competitive IMO . G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237453-lone-paladins-are-they-viable/#findComment-2874913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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