Njal Power FAQ interpretation

[spacewolflars]

I tried searchy but to no avail. I heard that there was some ruling somewhere that because of the FAQ talking about Njal's powers, that the Lord of Tempests (namely Driving Gale and Living Hurricane) doesn't work if his side goes second. Has anyone else seen this issue raise it's ugly head yet?

[muadib02]

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living

Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the

player going second? (p53)

A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where

the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is

yet to rage

 

FAQ SW Codex

[spacewolflars]

Right so is that interpretation a correct one then? those two effects don't do anything at all if you are going second? This includes in turn 2 when you roll a 1 or 2 on a D3 and turn 3 when you roll a 1 on a D3. It pretty well means that Njal goes back in the box for 'Ard Boyz.

[muadib02]

If you are using the GW FAQ as a house rule (which will be done at Ard Boyz) then this is not an interpretation. It is a statement. Those 2 powers have no in game effect if Njal's owner is going second.

[RunningWolfFenris]

Not to sound like a downer... but basically that's taking away a significant portion of a character's abilities on the chance that he goes second? No thanks.

[spacewolflars]

Not to sound like a downer... but basically that's taking away a significant portion of a character's abilities on the chance that he goes second? No thanks.

 

I agree. It seems pretty harsh. Oh well, we have plenty of other good options.

[Kami]

I'm very sure that it means you can't use it in your first turn, when going second, but in your second turn it begins to work.

[Silverwolf]

I'm sorry, but how the hell did any GW lackey ever come up with such ridiculous FAQ comment?

 

The codex specifically states "At the beginning of Njal's turn..." & "...add one to the D3 result on Turn 1, add two on Turn 2, etc."

 

How on earth did that ever get translated as "The Space Wolf player has to go first for this to work".

 

Whether going first or second, a player still has a "Turn 1". It's just plain stupid. First your to lazy to bother giving us TWC models, now you do this to one of our special characters? Really? Shame GW, at least read your own codices.

 

/end rant.

[dswanick]

I'm sorry, but how the hell did any GW lackey ever come up with such ridiculous FAQ comment?

 

The codex specifically states "At the beginning of Njal's turn..." & "...add one to the D3 result on Turn 1, add two on Turn 2, etc."

 

How on earth did that ever get translated as "The Space Wolf player has to go first for this to work".

 

Whether going first or second, a player still has a "Turn 1". It's just plain stupid. First your to lazy to bother giving us TWC models, now you do this to one of our special characters? Really? Shame GW, at least read your own codices.

 

/end rant.

Yes, it specifically says "At the beginning of Njal's turn".

Q: What is meant when the term ‘turn’ is used? (p9)

A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn. Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns.

Don't blaim the GW lackey for the proper interpretation of this rule, blaim Phil Kelly for not writting "game turn".

[Silverwolf]

Yes, it specifically says "At the beginning of Njal's turn

 

ie. The Space Wolf player's turn.

 

A: Whenever the word turn is used it means player turn. Otherwise it will clearly state game turn. In a complete game turn both players get a player turn. Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns.

 

ie. See above.

 

It doesn't say, at the beginning of the 1st Game Turn, which WOULD mean the Space Wolf player had to go first. It specifies that it is used at the beginning of Njal's turn. Therefore, in the Space Wolf players first turn, as specified, his power is used. Period.

 

I swear you have to be on drugs, or had one to many ales, not to understand that... But the GW monkey house has spoken, so rules lawyers will have a field day with it.

 

Trying to argue it with GW, but doubt I'll get anything constructive from them though.

[dswanick]

But the part you are overlooking is that Njal's power only last until the end of the game turn. Therefore :

1. Turn #X starts.

2. Your opponent goes, no Njal power is in effect yet.

3. Your turn starts, you roll for Njal's power. Power is in effect.

4. Turn #X ends, so does Njal's power from step 3.

5. Move on to the next turn, your opponent will again be able to go before either effect #2 or #3 can be rolled for in this game turn.

[Baragash]

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living

Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the

player going second? (p53)

A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where

the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is

yet to rage

 

FAQ SW Codex

 

 

I'm very sure that it means you can't use it in your first turn, when going second, but in your second turn it begins to work.

 

I agree with Kami, and would have no problem treating a Game Turn as each segment of [sW,Bara] even if that was [Player2,Player1] because the SW was going second.

 

I bolded the part that makes me think the person responding to the FAQ was speaking only in relation to the start of the game and not ongoing turns. Ofc I realise this is purely my opinion and I'm not attempting to make any sort of RAW argument here.

[muadib02]

its pretty simple.

Effect lasts a game turn. a game turn is Player 1 - Player 2.

Njals effect starts at the beginning of Njal's Player Turn, and ends with it.

and its not like the whole ability is just invalidated...its only the first 2

 

and the tempest has yet to rage bit seems more like a random fluff bit than a coherent ruling

 

dswannick hit it on the head anywyay.

 

this is not a matter of interpretation....the FAQ states that Living Hurricane and Driving Gale do not work if you are going second. Full Stop.

 

If you want to treat the Game Turn as something other than what it is, go ahead in your club as a house rule....but dont expect outsiders and tournaments to accept it.

[spacewolflars]

this is not a matter of interpretation....the FAQ states that Living Hurricane and Driving Gale do not work if you are going second. Full Stop.

 

If you want to treat the Game Turn as something other than what it is, go ahead in your club as a house rule....but dont expect outsiders and tournaments to accept it.

 

This was my point in bringing this up. I didn't want anyone here trying to use Njal in a tournament to get blindsided by some lame-o RAW ruling. I think the RAI is for the effect to last until Njal's next turn starts. But the way it is written, RAI will only hold up in garages and basements until they write an FAQ that makes a little more sense.

[MalachiOfRuss]

I don't understand why they didn't just errata it as "At the beginning of each game turn..."

[dswanick]

I don't understand why they didn't just errata it as "At the beginning of each game turn..."

Because that would be far too easy, and make way too much sense... :lol:

[Grimtooth]

I don't understand why they didn't just errata it as "At the beginning of each game turn..."

 

Probably for the same reason Canis has Rending in his special rules yet it does absolutely nothing. DerpaDerpa GW.

[Wulfebane]

I don't understand why it needed an errata at all. Within the text for "Lord of Tempests" it states:

 

Refer to the table opposite for the tempest's effects that game turn.

 

It's right there. What everyone was needing to have established. Game. Turn. Now that that's settled, anyone confused by "game turn" can then hop on over to page 9 of their 40k rulebook where it says:

 

Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns.

 

Referring back to the first quote, fueled with the knowledge gained by the second quote, we can now see that when we read THAT game turn, it means if you are Player 2 within the game turn, then the power will end after your player turn is finished and before the Player 1's player turn (and thus the beginning of a NEW game turn) starts.

[Baragash]

Referring back to the first quote, fueled with the knowledge gained by the second quote, we can now see that when we read THAT game turn, it means if you are Player 2 within the game turn, then the power will end after your player turn is finished and before the Player 1's player turn (and thus the beginning of a NEW game turn) starts.

 

That's not what it says at all.

 

Game Turn 1 specifically Player 1 Turn 1 and Player 2 Turn 1

Game Turn 2 specifically Player 1 Turn 2 and Player 2 Turn 2

A generic Game Turn is simply when both players have had a Player Turn.

 

The idea that a Game Turn can't be Player 2 Turn X Player 1 Turn X+1 is not stated in the rules, or explicitly stated in the 2 paragraphs or example, so Njal's power works fine by RAW.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Referring back to the first quote, fueled with the knowledge gained by the second quote, we can now see that when we read THAT game turn, it means if you are Player 2 within the game turn, then the power will end after your player turn is finished and before the Player 1's player turn (and thus the beginning of a NEW game turn) starts.

 

That's not what it says at all.

 

Game Turn 1 specifically Player 1 Turn 1 and Player 2 Turn 1

Game Turn 2 specifically Player 1 Turn 2 and Player 2 Turn 2

A generic Game Turn is simply when both players have had a Player Turn.

 

The idea that a Game Turn can't be Player 2 Turn X Player 1 Turn X+1 is not stated in the rules, or explicitly stated in the 2 paragraphs or example, so Njal's power works fine by RAW.

 

I don't mean to be too down on you :lol:

 

That is not what a game turn is though. It is not merely one player turn then another player turn.

It states what it is.

Game turn 1 - player A turn 1 & player B turn 1.

 

That it does not state against it, is because it has already be described in the italic section on BBB pg 19.

 

For it to work the way you have suggested, which is actually a far better mechanic, is for Njal's power to say 'lasts all the Wolf's player turn, and then all the opponent's player turn.'

 

Saying "it doesn't state against it" doesn't work. It has already been defined. Why would you need to say that an apple is not an animal, if you have already said it is a fruit? It is already defined as a fruit, which precludes it from being an animal.

 

GW doe not write tight rules. You would think they would try now that they actually have competition.... *sighs*

[Wulfebane]

Pity Njal's rules don't work like Wolf Standards.. declaring whenever and it lasting through until it comes full circle.

 

Baragash, when you say that a "generic" Game Turn is when both players have had a Player Turn, how do you quantify having something start on your turn (as Player 2) as the beginning of Game Turn #1 when Player 1 has ALREADY gone (thus finishing his/her Player Turn). It's like saying two players will start and end on the same player's turn instead of both players getting an equal amount of player turns. It doesn't equal out.

[Silverwolf]

GW doe not write tight rules. You would think they would try now that they actually have competition.... *sighs*

 

At the end of the day, this is what it boils down to. GW has a long history of poor rules writing, and even worse QA on said codices. Honestly I think sometimes they just go "hey, awesome idea, get drunk n write codex X!!", then release it, and think "oops... ah well, screw it, we'll fix it with an errata/FAQ". Problem of course being, they get drunk before writing the FAQ as well... *shrugs* what can we do.

 

I contest stuff with them, but it's not like I ever get any sort of coherent reply, and the GW CEO has proven complaint mail goes direct to his junk mail folder with his comments on their yearly financial report.

 

At the end of the day, we get drunk, rage, and bash things, but we put up with all the crap because we're Space Wolves, and they can throw the whole universe at us, but we'll still come up fighting.

[TiguriusX]

This adds a minor twist to objective missions.

 

Opponent can choose to nerf njal but gives you deciding movement to steal objectives as player 2

[Brother Landrain]

I think this just goes to show that the people writing codex's really have no idea how to play the game.

I think also, It also shows that not all parts of the codex are written by the same person.

 

Every other Psychic power that is persistent says... "Until the beginning of the Rune Priest's next turn"

 

Which is clearly how his should be worded.

 

Which is also why the BA power Sanguine Sword is argued to last the entire game... since all other powers are specific in lasting only a phase.

 

 

 

 

GW for all of the good, are an exceptionally BAD game design company.

 

I can not imagine who much more sucessful they could become with just a little competence in game design...

[Valerian]

I think this just goes to show that the people writing codex's really have no idea how to play the game.

I think also, It also shows that not all parts of the codex are written by the same person.

 

Every other Psychic power that is persistent says... "Until the beginning of the Rune Priest's next turn"

 

Which is clearly how his should be worded.

 

Except the Lord of Tempests is a special rule/ability, and not a psychic power.

 

This doesn't invalidate the fact that the special rule is poorly written, such that it causes a problem (I.e. No effect for two outcomes if Njal player is going second). Instead of fixing it with Errata, they confirm that it works as written in the FAQ. As unfortunate as this is for us players, that is the norm for the company. They very rarely actually fix unexpected problems with Errata; they almost always confirm the results as written, even when they are asinine.

 

Valerian