Index Astartes: Star Shields

[tiny sam]

well googled images, an free photoshop like and some patience

 

 

if you have some ideas might be we could give it a try

 

(let me guess a star on a shield <_<)

[SnakeoilSage]

The Star Shields use shields (obviously), sunburst images (not 8-pointed, again, obviously), the Devastator Chevron, clockwork gears and cogs, and mazes (Celtic knots are a good maze-like design).

[SnakeoilSage]

I made a small update to the background; I'm hoping to get more done next weekend.

[NightrawenII]

Hell-o, again...

 

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... Unknown

- Why?

 

Combat Doctrine

The Chapter has an excellent record for defensive siege fighting, trench warfare, and space hulk expeditions.

- I will talk about this later.

 

Organization

Traditionally, 1st Company does not fight as a whole; each Squad is assigned to serve a Company that matches their number: 2nd Veteran Squad serves the 2nd Company, 3rd Squad serves the 3rd Company, and so forth.

- Set on the head. Why do you assign Veterans to the Reserve and Scout company? :wacko:

 

Each Company has its own Master of the Forge, Libarian, and Chaplain assigned to it.

- Master of Forge is title for the head of Techmarines. Who leads the Techmarines in your Chapter then? Techmarine Suprema is rank for senior Techmarine.

- Chaplains are assigned to company by default.

 

8th Company is the Armor Reserve Company, which houses the bulk of the Chapter’s tanks, and all forty-seven of the Chapter’s dreadnoughts are considered part of the 8th, with the Company Captain assigning handfuls of Dreadnoughts as support to one of the other Companies.

- In normal Codex Chapter, the Dreadnoughts are part of their respective company and Armoury is separate unit. Why do you sacrifice hundred or so battle-brothers for no gain? :huh:

 

Beliefs

Because they exist on the edge of the Astronomican, it is not unheard of for Chapters to become lost in the Warp.

- Companies???

 

Playing a Star Shields Army

Star Shields field plenty of Devastators, Dreadnoughts, Tanks, and Techmarines. They are a defensive force, best suited to digging in and resisting the enemy approach.

... and they are dead, dead without questions and dead for sure. The Space Marines greatest weapon is not Bolter, nor Power Armour or any other piece of equipment. It's a mobility and concentration of power. The Marines will be almost always outnumbered and outgunned by almost every enemy, and thus their victory and survival depends on their ability to use a maneuvre. The moment a Space Marine force loses a iniciative, it has lost the battle. Period. No exception. No further talk. :P

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[SnakeoilSage]

Hell-o, again...

 

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... Unknown

- Why?

 

The Chapter geneseed has changed too drastically to trace it back to its origins.

 

Organization

Traditionally, 1st Company does not fight as a whole; each Squad is assigned to serve a Company that matches their number: 2nd Veteran Squad serves the 2nd Company, 3rd Squad serves the 3rd Company, and so forth.

- Set on the head. Why do you assign Veterans to the Reserve and Scout company? :)

 

Eh, good point.

 

Each Company has its own Master of the Forge, Libarian, and Chaplain assigned to it.

- Master of Forge is title for the head of Techmarines. Who leads the Techmarines in your Chapter then? Techmarine Suprema is rank for senior Techmarine.

- Chaplains are assigned to company by default.

 

The High Artificer is the highest Techmarine rank in the Chapter.

 

8th Company is the Armor Reserve Company, which houses the bulk of the Chapter’s tanks, and all forty-seven of the Chapter’s dreadnoughts are considered part of the 8th, with the Company Captain assigning handfuls of Dreadnoughts as support to one of the other Companies.

- In normal Codex Chapter, the Dreadnoughts are part of their respective company and Armoury is separate unit. Why do you sacrifice hundred or so battle-brothers for no gain? :huh:

 

The Chapter considers Dreadnoughts to be a type of tank that requires special maintenance, and it's simply more efficient if that maintenance is centralized under the auspices of a single Company.

 

Beliefs

Because they exist on the edge of the Astronomican, it is not unheard of for Chapters to become lost in the Warp.

- Companies???

 

Whoops, typo. :P

 

Playing a Star Shields Army

Star Shields field plenty of Devastators, Dreadnoughts, Tanks, and Techmarines. They are a defensive force, best suited to digging in and resisting the enemy approach.

... and they are dead, dead without questions and dead for sure. The Space Marines greatest weapon is not Bolter, nor Power Armour or any other piece of equipment. It's a mobility and concentration of power. The Marines will be almost always outnumbered and outgunned by almost every enemy, and thus their victory and survival depends on their ability to use a maneuvre. The moment a Space Marine force loses a iniciative, it has lost the battle. Period. No exception. No further talk. :blink:

 

Yes, because no Space Marine force has ever been on the defensive. The Battle of Macragge. The Crimson Fists at Rynn City. The Blood Angels recalling all of their successor Chapters because Daemons and Tyranids are descending on Baal. The Siege of Terra, final battle of the Horus Heresy. All lightning-quick Space Marine raids. :P

[NightrawenII]

Hell-o, again...

 

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... Unknown

- Why?

The Chapter geneseed has changed too drastically to trace it back to its origins.

The Adeptus Terra has archives, the Adeptus Mechanicus has archives and your own Chapter has archives, even in Imperium is hard to be without genetic father. And you cannot blame the Age of Apostasy for that, since you are 22nd Founding.

 

Playing a Star Shields Army

Star Shields field plenty of Devastators, Dreadnoughts, Tanks, and Techmarines. They are a defensive force, best suited to digging in and resisting the enemy approach.

... and they are dead, dead without questions and dead for sure. The Space Marines greatest weapon is not Bolter, nor Power Armour or any other piece of equipment. It's a mobility and concentration of power. The Marines will be almost always outnumbered and outgunned by almost every enemy, and thus their victory and survival depends on their ability to use a maneuvre. The moment a Space Marine force loses a iniciative, it has lost the battle. Period. No exception. No further talk. :RTBBB:

 

Yes, because no Space Marine force has ever been on the defensive. The Battle of Macragge. The Crimson Fists at Rynn City. The Blood Angels recalling all of their successor Chapters because Daemons and Tyranids are descending on Baal. The Siege of Terra, final battle of the Horus Heresy. All lightning-quick Space Marine raids. :P

And in each of these battles was Space Marine force mauled badly. The Siege of Terra doesn't count since it's still legion-action, not Chapter-action.

[PorridgeMeister]

Basically, the Star Shields are nothing but glorious archaeologists. :mellow:

 

Hey, there's nothing wrong with archaeologists! :o

__________________________________________

 

OT: A few things to consider seriously:

- how the heck does a single Chapter have 47 Dreads, a MoF for each company and Stalker-pattern Bolters (UMs and their successors only)?!?!

- there is no cheesier name for a home planet than Ursalis when it is inhabited by bears!

- I think you should at least give hints as to their gene-seed, if not reveal it entirely because not every Chapter doesn't know who their daddy is. I'm getting quite sick of people not doing so because it's just another way you can make your Chapter more diverse - you can touch on how they differ from their Parent Chapter. Also, surely such an important Chapter that has all these "vital" goodies would have secure records about them?

- I would recommend using Salamanders (slow and purposeful), Iron Hands (Eye to eye/machine buffs)or Ultramarines (3/5 of Chapters are UM successors. Also, their strategy sounds like PH Raven Guard.

- A defensive force with no fast-attack units? Doesn't sound smart; how do they counter-attack? Get quick reinforcements? Break sieges? Exploit weak points in enemy siege lines? Set up a screen so they can dig-in? Get reliable intelligence reports? Not get raged at by the Codex Choir-boys?

 

More critique tomorrow when I have time, but it looks excellent so far. Definitely an IA to be proud of in my opinion. Doubly so if it is your first.

And going toe-to-toe with NightrawenII already......? *shudders* :P

[SnakeoilSage]

The Adeptus Terra has archives, the Adeptus Mechanicus has archives and your own Chapter has archives, even in Imperium is hard to be without genetic father. And you cannot blame the Age of Apostasy for that, since you are 22nd Founding.

 

The Adeptus Terra has archives containing information that can be up to a thousand years out of date. No one knows where the Mentors come from and they're a 26th Founding.

 

And in each of these battles was Space Marine force mauled badly. The Siege of Terra doesn't count since it's still legion-action, not Chapter-action.

 

Mauled, but they won. And the Siege of Terra does so count because 1) it was a defensive battle and 2) it was fought primarily by Space Marines. And they were outnumbered by Horus' forces.

 

So tell me, if you were a Chapter with slowed reflexes and a preference for heavy weapons, on the frontier, with only rag-tag planetary militias (no mountains of Imperial Guard) to reinforce you, how would you fight?

 

In my mind, the Chapter would divide itself up between boarding actions and defense. One force makes planetfall to reinforce the lines, fortify defenses, and drill the locals in combat tactics, holding the line while a secondary force attacked the invaders in their own ships, crippling the invaders (I recall mentioning a good record of space hulk expeditions, I think you could use that as a catchcall for boarding actions).

 

OT: A few things to consider seriously:

- how the heck does a single Chapter have 47 Dreads, a MoF for each company and Stalker-pattern Bolters (UMs and their successors only)?!?!

 

47 isn't that huge a number really. I think the Blood Angels have around 41.

Where is it stated only the Ultramarines have Stalker-patterns?

 

- there is no cheesier name for a home planet than Ursalis when it is inhabited by bears!

 

I took it from Ursalia or "Land of Bears," one of the proposed names for Canada. After that I was pretty must obligated to include bears.

 

- I think you should at least give hints as to their gene-seed, if not reveal it entirely because not every Chapter doesn't know who their daddy is. I'm getting quite sick of people not doing so because it's just another way you can make your Chapter more diverse - you can touch on how they differ from their Parent Chapter. Also, surely such an important Chapter that has all these "vital" goodies would have secure records about them?

 

They spent a fair amount of their early years as a fleet-based chapter, hard records were hard to keep hold of. But you have a point. I'll give it some thought and see what progenitor would make a good, well, progenitor.

 

- I would recommend using Salamanders (slow and purposeful), Iron Hands (Eye to eye/machine buffs)or Ultramarines (3/5 of Chapters are UM successors. Also, their strategy sounds like PH Raven Guard.

 

I like the Salamanders. Their belief in self-reliance suits the Star Shields well.

I thought Raven Guard were about swiftness and guerilla warfare?

Ultramarines, maybe. I guess its a fallback Legion.

 

- A defensive force with no fast-attack units? Doesn't sound smart; how do they counter-attack? Get quick reinforcements? Break sieges? Exploit weak points in enemy siege lines? Set up a screen so they can dig-in? Get reliable intelligence reports? Not get raged at by the Codex Choir-boys?

 

Terminator teleporting and Drop Pods are how they counter attack, reinforce, exploit weak points and set up screens. A squad with plasmas cannons and a Vindicator break sieges faster than a group of Marines with chainswords. *Chuckle* The Chapter still has Assault Forces, Scout Bikers, Land Speeders, etc. They just don't deploy them often; Star Shield veterans have even slower reflexes than Salamanders: human-norm levels. That makes fast attack tactics like Jump Pack deep strike, Land Speeders, etc. too risky; they just don't have the superhuman reflexes needed to use those weapons effectively.

 

More critique tomorrow when I have time, but it looks excellent so far. Definitely an IA to be proud of in my opinion. Doubly so if it is your first.

And going toe-to-toe with NightrawenII already......? *shudders*

 

I've been making a lot of revisions since I first posted it a few weeks ago, but yeah, it's my first.

 

*Shrug* NightrawenII isn't so bad. When he makes a good point, he makes a good point. But he doesn't get a free ride, either; I'm not gonna just lie down and take everything like he's Marlon Brando with a tub of butter. *Laughs*

[chaplain belisarius]

i reckon salamanders gene seed would be a good bet...just my thoughts.

[SnakeoilSage]

i reckon salamanders gene seed would be a good bet...just my thoughts.

 

Yeah, I decided to go with Salamanders too. :) They don't have dark skin though.

[tiny sam]

the dark skin is partially due to the radiation of Nocturne affecting the Melanochrome.

 

I made some draft for a Star shield logo

 

Test1

 

Test2

 

Test3

 

Test 4

 

test 5

 

 

I have the original files if you want to do modification.

[SnakeoilSage]

Wow, that's some fantastic stuff man. Where'd you find all those?

[tiny sam]

I made them... with paint.net :mellow:

[SnakeoilSage]

Awesome! I'm impressed man. Now I don't know which one I would pick. lol

[NightrawenII]

The Adeptus Terra has archives, the Adeptus Mechanicus has archives and your own Chapter has archives, even in Imperium is hard to be without genetic father. And you cannot blame the Age of Apostasy for that, since you are 22nd Founding.

 

The Adeptus Terra has archives containing information that can be up to a thousand years out of date. No one knows where the Mentors come from and they're a 26th Founding.

Flawed logic.

There is a difference between "not being told" and "unknown". The Mentors are the case of not being told.

 

And in each of these battles was Space Marine force mauled badly. The Siege of Terra doesn't count since it's still legion-action, not Chapter-action.

 

Mauled, but they won¹. And the Siege of Terra does so count because 1) it was a defensive battle and 2) it was fought primarily by Space Marines. And they were outnumbered by Horus' forces.²

1. Which proves my point. The Chapter cannot take such punishment on regular basis.

2. The Imperial Fists legion doctrines were utterly different than their today Chapter equivalent. And the White Scars legion didn't fight exactly defensive battle.

 

So tell me, if you were a Chapter with slowed reflexes and a preference for heavy weapons, on the frontier, with only rag-tag planetary militias (no mountains of Imperial Guard) to reinforce you, how would you fight?

Since my force is absolutely inadequate and incapable of any serious resistance, I would either withdrawn* and concentrate my forces in hope to put *some* fight or sacrifice these units in order to buy a time and bring more adequate force(s). In either case, fighting a defensive battle is lose-lose situation, especialy when you are outgunned. The wars aren't won by stubborn defensive, but a decisive offensive.

 

 

* It depends how mobile is my enemy.

 

In my mind, the Chapter would divide itself up between boarding actions and defense. One force makes planetfall to reinforce the lines, fortify defenses, and drill the locals in combat tactics, holding the line while a secondary force attacked the invaders in their own ships, crippling the invaders (I recall mentioning a good record of space hulk expeditions, I think you could use that as a catchcall for boarding actions).

The Rebels don't have a space-ship support, you have to broke their back on the ground, of which you are incapable. And Chaos/Orks will give you a bleeding nose in boarding action. Once again, you are chosing the worst possible scenario.

 

OT: A few things to consider seriously:

- how the heck does a single Chapter have 47 Dreads, a MoF for each company and Stalker-pattern Bolters (UMs and their successors only)?!?!

 

47 isn't that huge a number really. I think the Blood Angels have around 41.

You cannot use 1st Founding Chapter(s) as the argument. It's exception, not the rule.

 

- A defensive force with no fast-attack units? Doesn't sound smart; how do they counter-attack? Get quick reinforcements? Break sieges? Exploit weak points in enemy siege lines? Set up a screen so they can dig-in? Get reliable intelligence reports? Not get raged at by the Codex Choir-boys?

 

Terminator teleporting and Drop Pods are how they counter attack, reinforce, exploit weak points and set up screens. A squad with plasmas cannons and a Vindicator break sieges faster than a group of Marines with chainswords.

Both Terminators and Drop pods are no-go for counter-attack units, since they are fairly immobile and problematic. And considering this group of marines with chainswords is also equiped with meltaguns, flamers, demolition charges and land inside the bunker, I would say that they are better at clearing fortifications than your example.

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[tiny sam]

And in each of these battles was Space Marine force mauled badly. The Siege of Terra doesn't count since it's still legion-action, not Chapter-action.

 

Mauled, but they won¹. And the Siege of Terra does so count because 1) it was a defensive battle and 2) it was fought primarily by Space Marines. And they were outnumbered by Horus' forces.²

1. Which proves my point. The Chapter cannot take such punishment on regular basis.

2. The Imperial Fists legion doctrines were utterly different than their today Chapter equivalent. And the White Scars legion didn't fight exactly defensive battle.

it take almost 10 years to make A Space marines. probably more for a star shield as they learn a lot of thing that a flesh tearer won't.

 

 

So tell me, if you were a Chapter with slowed reflexes and a preference for heavy weapons, on the frontier, with only rag-tag planetary militias (no mountains of Imperial Guard) to reinforce you, how would you fight?

Since my force is absolutely inadequate and incapable of any serious resistance, I would either withdrawn* and concentrate my forces in hope to put *some* fight or sacrifice these units in order to buy a time and bring more adequate force(s). In either case, fighting a defensive battle is lose-lose situation, especialy when you are outgunned. The wars aren't won by stubborn defensive, but a decisive offensive.

 

 

* It depends how mobile is my enemy.

you might be slow of reflex but you are clad in power armor and your aim is sure.

like in a book I read recently, the space marines were overrun by attaquer, they withdrew even if it cost the lives of many. They then drop pod assault the center of the ennemy HQ forcing it's commander to retreat.

 

In courrage and Honnor, Uriel whitdrew from a static defences that was slowly killing his troops in order to fight "like space marines fight"

 

 

Thus said, they could still protect a city to give the time to the civilian to escape.

 

In my mind, the Chapter would divide itself up between boarding actions and defense. One force makes planetfall to reinforce the lines, fortify defenses, and drill the locals in combat tactics, holding the line while a secondary force attacked the invaders in their own ships, crippling the invaders (I recall mentioning a good record of space hulk expeditions, I think you could use that as a catchcall for boarding actions).

The Rebels don't have a space-ship support, you have to broke their back on the ground, of which you are incapable. And Chaos/Orks will give you a bleeding nose in boarding action. Once again, you are chosing the worst possible scenario.

well a fructuous association with Ordo Xenos and space hulk clearing :P

 

but avoid chaos boarding ship (after all it's what killed Dorn...)

 

 

 

OT: A few things to consider seriously:

- how the heck does a single Chapter have 47 Dreads, a MoF for each company and Stalker-pattern Bolters (UMs and their successors only)?!?!

 

47 isn't that huge a number really. I think the Blood Angels have around 41.

You cannot use 1st Founding Chapter(s) as the argument. It's exception, not the rule.

a strong tie with the mechanicum could however justify some "advance/Older" technologies

 

 

- A defensive force with no fast-attack units? Doesn't sound smart; how do they counter-attack? Get quick reinforcements? Break sieges? Exploit weak points in enemy siege lines? Set up a screen so they can dig-in? Get reliable intelligence reports? Not get raged at by the Codex Choir-boys?

 

Terminator teleporting and Drop Pods are how they counter attack, reinforce, exploit weak points and set up screens. A squad with plasmas cannons and a Vindicator break sieges faster than a group of Marines with chainswords.

Both Terminators and Drop pods are no-go for counter-attack units, since they are fairly immobile and problematic. And considering this group of marines with chainswords is also equiped with meltaguns, flamers, demolition charges and land inside the bunker, I would say that they are better at clearing fortifications than your example.

In fact, considering the logical aspect of your marines, they would probably not be so restrictive, a quick land-speeders assault to open a breach in the wall, teleports terminator in that breach to hold it. But it was a decoy, the army is assaulting via jump pack the other way, and melta bombed the place. Tactical/Devastator slowly marched against and uncovered ennemy. Star Shields win.

[PorridgeMeister]

47 isn't that huge a number really. I think the Blood Angels have around 41.

Where is it stated only the Ultramarines have Stalker-patterns?

- @Dreadfest:

- @Blood Angels: source?

- @Stalker-patterns: 5th Ed. C:SM, but you could have them be UM successors to make it more agreeable. If not, make them help the Smurfs or one of their successors in a huge way to get the Stalkers as a reward.

 

They spent a fair amount of their early years as a fleet-based chapter, hard records were hard to keep hold of. But you have a point. I'll give it some thought and see what progenitor would make a good, well, progenitor.

Cool beans.

 

I like the Salamanders. Their belief in self-reliance suits the Star Shields well.

I thought Raven Guard were about swiftness and guerilla warfare?

Ultramarines, maybe. I guess its a fallback Legion.

- @Sallies: good choice.

- @Raven Guard: according to Lex, their pre-heresy strategy was to study the enemy then launch a swift hammer-blow strike.

- @UMs: pretty much most people's attitude to them.

 

Terminator teleporting and Drop Pods are how they counter attack, reinforce, exploit weak points and set up screens. A squad with plasmas cannons and a Vindicator break sieges faster than a group of Marines with chainswords. *Chuckle* The Chapter still has Assault Forces, Scout Bikers, Land Speeders, etc. They just don't deploy them often; Star Shield veterans have even slower reflexes than Salamanders: human-norm levels. That makes fast attack tactics like Jump Pack deep strike, Land Speeders, etc. too risky; they just don't have the superhuman reflexes needed to use those weapons effectively.

Fair 'nuff.

 

I've been making a lot of revisions since I first posted it a few weeks ago, but yeah, it's my first.

Well, this is 3 times better than my first... *groans*

 

*Shrug* NightrawenII isn't so bad. When he makes a good point, he makes a good point. But he doesn't get a free ride, either; I'm not gonna just lie down and take everything like he's Marlon Brando with a tub of butter. *Laughs*

:P

[SnakeoilSage]

There is a difference between "not being told" and "unknown". The Mentors are the case of not being told.

 

It would be better if I said "they weren't told?" By your own logic there's no canonical reason not to say why their background is a mystery, it seems to be just something to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

 

And I decided on Salamanders, for their sense of self-sufficiency and the potential mutability of their gene-seed.

 

1. Which proves my point. The Chapter cannot take such punishment on regular basis.

2. The Imperial Fists legion doctrines were utterly different than their today Chapter equivalent. And the White Scars legion didn't fight exactly defensive battle.

 

1. The examples are Chapters that don't focus on defensive actions to begin with. The fact that a force like the Crimson Fists were able to overcome overwhelming odds and still win is evidence enough that force of 1000 Space Marines, specially trained in defensive wars, would be more than a match for an invading force.

 

2. I'm still not seeing your point. They were still defending Terra, and still had to coordinate their battle according to the protection of the Imperial Palace. There was no true counter-attack until the Emperor boarded Horus' vessel.

 

Since my force is absolutely inadequate and incapable of any serious resistance, I would either withdrawn* and concentrate my forces in hope to put *some* fight or sacrifice these units in order to buy a time and bring more adequate force(s). In either case, fighting a defensive battle is lose-lose situation, especialy when you are outgunned. The wars aren't won by stubborn defensive, but a decisive offensive.

 

Well considering your strategy can be roughly translated to "Run away, every man for himself!" I'd say it's a good thing you're not in command. That kind of thinking would get you shot in the Imperial Guard; I wonder what the punishment is in the Space Marines? Heresy at the least. Space Marines don't run away. They fight. Some fight to conquer. Others fight to protect. Mine are the latter.

 

The Rebels don't have a space-ship support, you have to broke their back on the ground, of which you are incapable. And Chaos/Orks will give you a bleeding nose in boarding action. Once again, you are chosing the worst possible scenario.

 

Not... really. If the Star Shields are required to invade they'll begin a seige, and when a crack forms in the enemy rank they'll push inside, slow yet purposeful. I'm sure I mentioned this in the combat doctrine.

 

And Chaos/Orks aren't invulnerable to boarding actions; it might be their ship but the cramped confines force them to attack from directions that are easily cleared with the progidous use of heavy weapons, which the Star Shields favor. Any Assault Marines they do take would be strictly to protect their heavy gunners.

 

You cannot use 1st Founding Chapter(s) as the argument. It's exception, not the rule.

 

The 1st Founding Chapters are the only ones with more than a paragraph or two of background to use for reference. There's nothing I've seen in the canon that says a Chapter of decent age (at least 2 millennium) can't have a good size of Dreadnoughts, and most Chapters probably have a lot more than you think, sitting empty and waiting for a host.

 

Again, it seems like you're nitpicking just to nitpick.

 

Both Terminators and Drop pods are no-go for counter-attack units, since they are fairly immobile and problematic. And considering this group of marines with chainswords is also equiped with meltaguns, flamers, demolition charges and land inside the bunker, I would say that they are better at clearing fortifications than your example.

 

Terminator are Relentless, they are not immobile. Drop Pods are highly accurate means of delivering squads, they are not problematic. And by your logic there's nothing to keep a Drop Pod from landing "inside a bunker:" if an assault squad can somehow just fly into an armored bunker then a drop pod can land on it, and the Tactical squad will have meltaguns, flamers, and melta bombs too; plus heavy bolters or some other heavy weapon. And storm bolter or deathwind launcher support from the Drop Pod. And they can open fire the moment they land.

 

All things considered the Drop pod squad would probably do a better job of it than a pack of jump marines. If that doesn't seem right to you, feel free to read the rulebook; see the Drop Pod entry and the Jump Packs Wargear entry.

 

Your arguements are tripping over what's possible in-game. My Chapter doesn't break any tabletop rules and it doesn't disrupt the narrative or theme of the setting or the Space Marines themselves. Sorry, I'm not changing their protective nature because you don't agree with it.

 

it take almost 10 years to make A Space marines. probably more for a star shield as they learn a lot of thing that a flesh tearer won't.

 

Undoubtedly more than a Flesh Tearer. And that extra training goes into making them defense specialists where a single squad can hold its ground against overwhelming odds for hours. Laying traps, picking stragetic ground, a dozen fall-back zones, etc. Where a Flesh Tearer would die standing on the spot he chose to hold his ground because he knows no other way, the Star Shields would be gunning down foes for hours; as a wise former Minnesota governor one said, are "dug in deeper than an Alabama tick."

 

you might be slow of reflex but you are clad in power armor and your aim is sure.

like in a book I read recently, the space marines were overrun by attaquer, they withdrew even if it cost the lives of many. They then drop pod assault the center of the ennemy HQ forcing it's commander to retreat.

In courrage and Honnor, Uriel whitdrew from a static defences that was slowly killing his troops in order to fight "like space marines fight"

 

Thus said, they could still protect a city to give the time to the civilian to escape.

 

Neither of those strategies sound like cold logic, something the Star Shields embrace. If it's strategically unsound to retreat, even if it means you have to dig in, then the Star Shields do it. If tactics demand they sit in fox holes, shooting at things that come charging at them, then they will because to abandon their posts just to fight for the sake of fighting is undisciplined and could potentially ruin their defense lines.

 

Remember the phalanx strategy in the movie 300? Shields form a wall. They hold, attack, advance, hold, attack, advance. That's the Star Shields mantra. One does not come before the other simply because it's not the "Space Marine way," an outlook that is so ungrounded it is paramount to superstition.

 

well a fructuous association with Ordo Xenos and space hulk clearing

 

The Shields do engage in a lot of space hulk clearing.

 

but avoid chaos boarding ship (after all it's what killed Dorn...)

 

Supposedly. lol

 

a strong tie with the mechanicum could however justify some "advance/Older" technologies

 

I bet some Chapters close to the Mechanicum have a lot more than 47. I bet there's a Chapter out there with an entire Company of Dreadnoughts. That'd be a sight.

 

In fact, considering the logical aspect of your marines, they would probably not be so restrictive, a quick land-speeders assault to open a breach in the wall, teleports terminator in that breach to hold it. But it was a decoy, the army is assaulting via jump pack the other way, and melta bombed the place. Tactical/Devastator slowly marched against and uncovered ennemy. Star Shields win.

 

Logic and ability are in conflict here. Like I've mentioned the Shields aren't as fast to react as other Chapters. Hurtling through the air on a Jump Pack or driving a Land Speeder - as such equipment suggests - requires heightened reflexes to use, otherwise you'd see Land Speeders in an Imperial Guard army. A Star Shield might slam a Land Speeder into an oncoming wall because he simply couldn't maneuver it during a dog-fight, and then that's just a good marine and good equipment lost.

 

There are assault forces in the Star Shields, those who train extensively to overcome their Chapter handicap, and they are used, but you won't ever see as many Assault Marines as you see Devastators or even Dreadnoughts on the field.

 

Guys, this is their handicap. It's no different than having a Chapter on the decline due to mutation or psychotic rage or simple lack of equipment: they do what they can with what they have and try to make themselves the best at what they do.

 

If you're so scared of not having your melee specialists, well you've got about 3+ official options to enjoy, don't you? Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and you can work out a good Raven Guard and White Scars force too. There few ranged specialist Space Marines, but there is nothing in their canon that says that a defensive, ranged Space Marine force can't be just as effective than one that leans towards close-range assault.

 

Gah.

 

- @Dreadfest:

- @Blood Angels: source?

- @Stalker-patterns: 5th Ed. C:SM, but you could have them be UM successors to make it more agreeable. If not, make them help the Smurfs or one of their successors in a huge way to get the Stalkers as a reward.

 

Codex: Blood Angels 798.M41 The Assault on Baal, Page 14.

And I quote: "Venerable Furioso Astrameael assembles all forty-one of the Chapter's functional Dreadnoughts-"

 

The only mention I see of Stalker-pattern boltguns in Codex: Space Marines is Torias Telion's entry on Page 88, and it mentions nothing about the Ultramarines being the only Chapter to wield them.

 

- @Sallies: good choice.

- @Raven Guard: according to Lex, their pre-heresy strategy was to study the enemy then launch a swift hammer-blow strike.

- @UMs: pretty much most people's attitude to them.

 

Yeah. I went with Salamanders.

Huh, I didn't know Raven Guard were like that.

lol There's nothing wrong with Ultramarines, they are the iconic Space Marine force. But if you want any kind of unique personality for your Chapter you're pretty much obligated to pick another progenitor.

 

Well, this is 3 times better than my first... *groans*

 

Naw, this is just my first list posted on Bolter and Chainsword. I was writing up little backgrounds for all of the armies I used to host. I posted this one up because I came up with a huge chunk of homebrew rules that are also posted on this site. ;)

[tiny sam]

Logic and ability are in conflict here. Like I've mentioned the Shields aren't as fast to react as other Chapters. Hurtling through the air on a Jump Pack or driving a Land Speeder - as such equipment suggests - requires heightened reflexes to use, otherwise you'd see Land Speeders in an Imperial Guard army. A Star Shield might slam a Land Speeder into an oncoming wall because he simply couldn't maneuver it during a dog-fight, and then that's just a good marine and good equipment lost.

 

There are assault forces in the Star Shields, those who train extensively to overcome their Chapter handicap, and they are used, but you won't ever see as many Assault Marines as you see Devastators or even Dreadnoughts on the field.

 

Guys, this is their handicap. It's no different than having a Chapter on the decline due to mutation or psychotic rage or simple lack of equipment: they do what they can with what they have and try to make themselves the best at what they do.

 

If you're so scared of not having your melee specialists, well you've got about 3+ official options to enjoy, don't you? Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and you can work out a good Raven Guard and White Scars force too. There few ranged specialist Space Marines, but there is nothing in their canon that says that a defensive, ranged Space Marine force can't be just as effective than one that leans towards close-range assault.

I was vewing it like an Anti grav weapon platform. quite more easy to move around that a thunderfire cannon (wich are desing for static defense and slow advance :D ) and the close combat specialist are usefull even for a shooting army, in case the ennemy break through. but as you said a Squad of Thunder hammer/Storm shield Terminator is probably the best choice for a slow fighter :P .

[SnakeoilSage]

I was vewing it like an Anti grav weapon platform. quite more easy to move around that a thunderfire cannon (wich are desing for static defense and slow advance :) ) and the close combat specialist are usefull even for a shooting army, in case the ennemy break through. but as you said a Squad of Thunder hammer/Storm shield Terminator is probably the best choice for a slow fighter :D .

 

If the Land Speeders were an anti-grav weapon like an Eldar Shuriken catapult, the Star Shields would absolutely field them. But Thunerfire Cannons are more in line with their approach to warfare; static defense, slow advance. That's the Chapter to a T.

 

If the Star Shields absolutely needed an assault force, yes, Assault Termintators would be the first to be deployed

[NightrawenII]

There is a difference between "not being told" and "unknown". The Mentors are the case of not being told.

 

It would be better if I said "they weren't told?" By your own logic there's no canonical reason not to say why their background is a mystery, it seems to be just something to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

First, *WE* aren't told about Mentor's gene-seed source, there is no evidence that Mentors themselves don't know their gene-seed origins.

Second, the Index Astartes is providing the information(s) about the Chapter. To not provide a information, because you can't be bothered, is fail on the author's part.

 

1. The examples are Chapters that don't focus on defensive actions to begin with. The fact that a force like the Crimson Fists were able to overcome overwhelming odds and still win is evidence enough that force of 1000 Space Marines, specially trained in defensive wars, would be more than a match for an invading force.

Like I said previously and I will repeat myself. The defensive actions is what will kill a Space Marine Chapter dead. The Space Marines simply don't have numbers, firepower or supplies to be always in defensive. Their best weapon is mobility and concetration of power. If is your Chapter immobile or focused on defensive, then it's fail as Space Marine Chapter.

 

And Crimson Fists were able to defend just New Rynn City, rest of the planet was wasted and ruined by rampaging Ork hordes. The only thing what saved the CF was the Imperium's (with several other Chapters) intervention .

 

2. I'm still not seeing your point. They were still defending Terra, and still had to coordinate their battle according to the protection of the Imperial Palace. There was no true counter-attack until the Emperor boarded Horus' vessel.

Except the Jaghatai's counter-attack against the Lion's Gate outside of Imperial Palace. - That's why he wasn't with Emperor during His last gamble. There is difference between defending something by agressive or "backhand" actions and completely defensive stance.

 

Well considering your strategy can be roughly translated to "Run away, every man for himself!" I'd say it's a good thing you're not in command. That kind of thinking would get you shot in the Imperial Guard; I wonder what the punishment is in the Space Marines? Heresy at the least. Space Marines don't run away. They fight. Some fight to conquer. Others fight to protect. Mine are the latter.

Lol, no. I follow Codex Astartes, observe:

"To die without purpose is not a service to the Emperor. It is a heresy to waste lives entrusted to you as an Imperial officer. There is nothing shameful or disloyal in righteous retreat. But in withdrawing from the enemy’s presence, allow him no succour. That which cannot be saved must be destroyed. Leave no weapons, armour, transport, food or water in your passing. Scorch the earth at his feet, and leave him desert and desolation as his victory gifts."

 

Not... really. If the Star Shields are required to invade they'll begin a siege, and when a crack forms in the enemy rank they'll push inside, slow yet purposeful. I'm sure I mentioned this in the combat doctrine.

... and then get hit by counter-attack without acquiring the operational freedom, a wasted chance. It's good that you are not in command of Space Marine force, since your command is rigid and inflexible.

 

And Chaos/Orks aren't invulnerable to boarding actions; it might be their ship but the cramped confines force them to attack from directions that are easily cleared with the progidous use of heavy weapons, which the Star Shields favor. Any Assault Marines they do take would be strictly to protect their heavy gunners.

It's their ship, they will either attack from unexpected direction or wait in ambush. The Chaos marines are die-hard veterans and don't favour Zerg-rush as much as you think.

 

The 1st Founding Chapters are the only ones with more than a paragraph or two of background to use for reference. There's nothing I've seen in the canon that says a Chapter of decent age (at least 2 millennium) can't have a good size of Dreadnoughts, and most Chapters probably have a lot more than you think, sitting empty and waiting for a host.

Dreadnoughts (like TDA) are lost and rare technology. It's hard to believe that you have more these things than 1st Founding Chapter. You will have half of this number at best.

 

Terminator are Relentless, they are not immobile.

Unlike Space Marines in power armour Terminators are bulky and slow moving. As a result, methods have been developed to allow the squads to reach the enemy in enough strength to prevail. Terminator armour is designed to allow its wearer to utilise the technology of teleportation and through this sometimes treacherous method of transport, Terminators may teleport right into the heart of the enemy battle lines. Although teleportation can be far from accurate, it is often the best way to get Terminators into the thick of the fighting quickly... ... the more common method of deployment for battle remains the more straightforward Land Raider battle tank. In this way Space Marines in Terminator armour can reach the heart of the battle.

- The TDA is simply too slow to be considered a good counter-attack tool.

 

Drop Pods are highly accurate means of delivering squads, they are not problematic. And by your logic there's nothing to keep a Drop Pod from landing "inside a bunker:" if an assault squad can somehow just fly into an armored bunker then a drop pod can land on it, and the Tactical squad will have meltaguns, flamers, and melta bombs too; plus heavy bolters or some other heavy weapon. And storm bolter or deathwind launcher support from the Drop Pod. And they can open fire the moment they land.

You need a ship in the right position to launch a Drop pod. This + the neccessary targeting takes some time.

 

All things considered the Drop pod squad would probably do a better job of it than a pack of jump marines.

Except this very squad keeps its mobility, while the drop pod is immobilized the moment it lands.

 

Undoubtedly more than a Flesh Tearer. And that extra training goes into making them defense specialists where a single squad can hold its ground against overwhelming odds for hours. Laying traps, picking stragetic ground, a dozen fall-back zones, etc. Where a Flesh Tearer would die standing on the spot he chose to hold his ground because he knows no other way, the Star Shields would be gunning down foes for hours; as a wise former Minnesota governor one said, are "dug in deeper than an Alabama tick."

The thing is, the Flesh Tearer will not hold ground at all.

 

Remember the phalanx strategy in the movie 300? Shields form a wall. They hold, attack, advance, hold, attack, advance. That's the Star Shields mantra. One does not come before the other simply because it's not the "Space Marine way," an outlook that is so ungrounded it is paramount to superstition.

Remember what happend later in the movie? That's what awaits your guys, if they will stay in defensive.

 

I bet some Chapters close to the Mechanicum have a lot more than 47. I bet there's a Chapter out there with an entire Company of Dreadnoughts. That'd be a sight.

That's just assumption. And fallacious to boot.

 

The only Chapter with hundred or so Dreadnoughts are Space Wolves (another 1st Founding Chapter) and that's because they have't had many succesors in 2nd Founding, one in fact.

 

Guys, this is their handicap. It's no different than having a Chapter on the decline due to mutation or psychotic rage or simple lack of equipment: they do what they can with what they have and try to make themselves the best at what they do.

 

If you're so scared of not having your melee specialists, well you've got about 3+ official options to enjoy, don't you? Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and you can work out a good Raven Guard and White Scars force too. There few ranged specialist Space Marines, but there is nothing in their canon that says that a defensive, ranged Space Marine force can't be just as effective than one that leans towards close-range assault.

The problem is that this handicap and lack of fast attack choices makes them nothing more than Imperial Guard, without numbers and big guns to rely on. In other words, dead meat.

 

You can have your ranged specialists to your heart content, but they will need to stay as mobile and fast as any other SM Chapter. It's simple like that.

 

 

Cheers, NightrawenII.

[tiny sam]

for the "unknown\untold\lost to history" it's between you two :D

 

 

as for the Defences\slow but pursposfull thing.

 

could probably said this like that:

 

Close combat lacking

tend to follow Codex deployement but the genetic deficency around reflex made close swift combat their Achilles' heel. Forcing the star shield to rely on land raider deployed Terminator armor to fill that aspect of combat.

 

Predilection for defences

 

Altough the primary role of the Astartes is not to do static defences, it happen that sometime the ennemy have to be halted or slowed at all cost. Some chapter will dismiss such assignment while other will argue, the Star Shields are not among those chapter. They willingly accept the less honorable, but higly necessary missions such as static defences and convoy protection.

 

after all thats what the salamander did on armagedon. Assuming a defence position is not necessairly a fight to the death as it can be a slow retreat.

 

 

And for the Slow Reflex vs Effectivity

 

this mean a more battle lost but it's almost the same as some genetically disfunctionnal chapter,

Flesh tearer are at most 500-600 due to the Black Rage,

Raven Guard have alot of problem making their number due to Corax's manipulation,

etc.

 

 

 

for the dreadnought and TDA things

like I said, the Mechanicus would gladly gives alot in exchange of STC scheme. what about the Star Shield found STC scheme (the special repulsor field) while repairing the Chapterhouse, in exchange the Mechanicum give them more stock since that.

[Archivist Thaddeus Kryptem]

I like your general theme, but I agree with the problems the others have presented, so I present a compromise, why not have your chapters preferred method of combat similar to Calgar's at Commrath and the battle of the Sepulchre? (5th ed C:SM page 34) one solid heavily fortified defense line, with roaming, reactive battle groups to meet threats to the main battle group? On a Company scale the Devastators and heavy support act as your main stay static battle line and if you are dead set against assault marines (understandable for fluff one would be the max i'd include in a specialist chapter of your nature) use tactical squads mounted in a razor back to rapidly respond to threats with a Vet Sgt with close combat capabilities to balance the squad, have all Tactical marines out fitted this way and operating independently and you're set, a happy compromise of static defense are reactive counter-attack.

 

Don't get me wrong a tough one to play, but rewarding and effective when mastered.

[SnakeoilSage]

The fluff and the rules do not gel. We've been arguing that fact for days and it's giving me rampant bouts of hysterical pregnancy.

 

I pick rules over fluff, because the rules decide what my army is capable in any given game edition, and the fluff is more what you might call guidelines than actual rules (welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner). If W40K 6th Edition is released tomorrow and the new Space Marine Codex forces me to build an army that cannot exist without the mobility you speak of, then the Star Shields will change.

 

I like my defensive Space Marines. I've won battles against Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks, Sisters of Battle and Tyranids by holding my table edge and using nothing but Drop Pods of Space Marines, Dreadnoughts, and Terminators to attack his forces. That for me is enough justification for their fighting style, because the rules (and my victories) tell me I'm doing it right. I don't care if one paragraph in the book states I'm doing it wrong. A Space Marine Chapter isn't following the Codex Astartes? Oh My Roboute Guilliman!

 

And before anyone calls me inflexible, if you need strictly canonized fluff to justify a Chapter's existence here, I found this in the Lexicanum:

 

In an interesting example of juxtaposition, however, the fluctuating gravity of Nocturne makes training with certain units such as Land Speeders and Bikes difficult, therefore the chapter makes little use of them, in favour of Devastator squads and Terminator Squads (the chapter has 120 veterans as opposed to the typical 100).

 

Indeed, it is fitting that Salamanders be lacking in the way of Fast Attack, as for some inexplicable reason, they naturally have slightly slower reflexes than most Space Marines. It should be noted though, that their reflexes are still significantly faster than those of a normal human.

 

Trained never to give up or retreat, Salamanders are capable of going on when their entire squad is dead, holding positions for months on end. This is one of the more significant effects of Promethean doctrines upon the Chapter's collective psyche.

 

There. You can almost replace "Salamanders" with "Star Shields," they're so similar. In fact I'm kicking myself for not digging this up sooner because if I had known I would have made Salamanders their progenitor right from the get go, and we would have known this whole debate was pointless right from the get-go.

 

And we all know how 300 ended, but the phalanx combat style remained effective and to this day is one of the most noteworthy tactics of that era. Spoiler alert: Greece won. The Persians didn't conquer Sparta after the movie ended.

[tiny sam]

Salamander is a good pick :D

 

everone knows you are inflexible ;)

 

Personnaly that's why I favor being vague in the Combat doctrine part. As we know war is an art and not an exact science :P

 

even the Ultramarines have bend the codex when they formed the Tyranic war veterans