Forests and LOS

[ShinyRhino]

A few weeks ago Iplayed a game against an unfamiliar opponent in a tournament setting. We ran through all of the terrain and other pregame processes, and started playing.

 

At one point, my opponent started firing missile launchers from a Long Fang squad into my tanks. Problem was, there were several large pine trees standing in front of said squad. We'd declared the tree stands as area terrain at the beginning of the game, and he'd taken that to mean the trees were "invisible". Our local shop players always declare trees as LOS-blockers.

It didn't affect the outcome of the game (I got stomped either way, lol), but I was curious how others handle movable trees in area terrain stands. In this game, my opponent had picked up some of the trees in the stand from Side A to move Squad One into the area terrain, and in doing so completely blocked the LOS of Squad two on Side B of the area terrain.

 

How do you folks shuffle trees on a tree stand? What if you move a tree that would otherwise prevent a model from standing there? Do you move the tree off the stand completely, or just nudge it over some? How do you deal with vehicles' obscured saves when trees are moved and the area terrain pad doesn' thave the locations marked like the GW terrain does?

[Frosty the Pyro]

True LOS is True LOS, the only things you ignore will be decoritive items on models, models in the same unit as the firing model, and markers (such as smoke cotten balls), and terain you specifcly state can be seen through. Well and the cheeto that annoying spectator droped, and you dont want to pick up because no one like orange fuzz on their models.

 

While I do not recall the rule book mentioning it specifcly (I think its implied somewere but i do not feal like combing though paragraphs atm), the gentlemanly way is

whenever you move terrain for convence you need to return it to the original position (or as close as reasonably posible) whenever it would effect LOS. If the terain lakes marks were the trees (or part in question) should be, you should mark them yourself when you move them the first time. Pennies work well as they are heavy enouph not to be dislodged by a slight breeze, but flat enouph to not interfear with models moving over em. sort of like when you have models with nifty dynamic poses that could effect LOS, it is polite to have a standard posed model on standby to them for when measuring in the rare cases were it would make a difference.

[Acebaur]

While Frosty is correct from a RAW perspective, most of my friends and I play it that pieces of terrain with multiple trees on them are usually considered to be a "forest" and is area terrain that gives a cover save to anything behind it as well. This includes vehicles if the vehicles are blocked 50% or more by the edges of the "forest". We've also played that there are forests so dense as to completely block LOS. These are house rules of course, but are intended to be more realistic, as having enough trees on a piece of terrain is impractical for actual gameplay. That and there isn't enough LOS blocking stuff in 40K IMO anyway.

I would say, discuss it beforehand with your opponents and come up with something mutually agreeable.

[Jacinda]

Area terrain is an exception to the True LoS rules and included specifically for forest areas and ruins.

 

First, let's talk about ruins. You can put out a few pieces of a building to mark off the corners and maybe a little rubble in the middle area but anything that traces line of sight through this area gets a cover save. To say that LoS goes through this area it has to pass between two features. With ruins you can not move the markers out of the way because this changes the area. You can move some of the middle rubble so your models are steady but the marking corners should never be moved.

 

With forests, it is easier to lay out a template and set up a few trees to mark the area. In this case, anything going over the template gets a cover save. The trees are representations of an area full of trees. You can move the trees out of the way or to different parts of the template without changing the defined area so no problem there. Also, since this is area terrain, any terrain modeling there does not truly block line of sight. It only obscures it.

 

Basically, in your game you may be hiding behind a tree but since it is area terrain you are only getting cover from it. You are getting cover granted by the template whither or not there is actually a tree obscuring that specific model. So no, it does not matter if the tree is moved. It only matters where the forest template is.

[Seahawk]

TLOS is TLOS, he was wrong and you were correct.

 

The long version:

 

Area Terrain (p.13)

"When moving models into this area, you may temporarily remove the rocks, trees, etc (if they are not glued in place) to make moving the models easier. Remember, however, to put them back where they originally were (or as close as possible) after you finish moving, as they may affect the line of sight of models shooting through that area terrain."

 

TLOS (p.14)

"- they must be able to see their foe through, under, or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield."

 

1 - he'd taken that to mean the trees were "invisible". Wrong

2- Our local shop players always declare trees as LOS-blockers Right (but only the actual trees)

 

There is absolutely no abstraction anymore (except in the case of models in the same unit can see through each other), which is a hang up people from 4th edition are still getting over. Everything is exactly as you see it on the tabletop.

[thade]

TLOS is TLOS, he was wrong and you were correct.

This, as Seahawk, Frosty, and others have said.

[Jacinda]

Area Terrain (p.13)

"When moving models into this area, you may temporarily remove the rocks, trees, etc (if they are not glued in place) to make moving the models easier. Remember, however, to put them back where they originally were (or as close as possible) after you finish moving, as they may affect the line of sight of models shooting through that area terrain."

Check the paragraph just before that. Those trees and rocks it is mentioning in your quoted bit are the boundries of the area terrain.

 

All of the terrain pices in that area are Area Terrain. Since the OP began the game agreeing that it was Area Terrain then it all counts as woods when comparing it to the chart on page 21 regarding cover saves. Whether or not you are behind a specific tree does not matter because anywhere in that area is considered being in woods.

 

Next, check the exceptions list on page 22 and the example picture at the bottom of the page. No part of model B is covered but it is in cover because the shot goes through area terrrain.

[greatcrusade08]

this is not about cover saves its about LOS for shooting.. two vastly different rules arguments

in the case of true LOS you need actual line of site to be able to see.. cover saves or not

[Jacinda]

Then pick the trees up, put them back where they were so they are no longer blocking the LoS.

 

I also have a hard time seeing a tree completely block LoS to a tank. Just because it is a tree does not mean it completely blocks LoS. It still needs to be checked.

 

And in the end:

Of course, this method does mean that

occasionally there are border-line cases when it is

quite hard to decide if a model can see a target or

not, but sporting players will always be generous

and give their opponent the benefit of the doubt.

 

But in the given question, the guy moved the trees over to the side so he could move his models into the terrain. In doing so he positioned them in front of his missle launchers. Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

[timmytool]

remember TLOS is very hard to block without things like walls. all that is needed to gain tlos threw a tree is a small gap in the foliage and they have it... Remember to even gain a cover save for a tank 50% of the facing needs to be blocked so even a small gap will give its position away and allow it to be shoot.

 

even modern weapons(ak) can fire threw solid trees and hit a target on the other side, 40k weapons are of larger caliber and would reduce trees/walls/etc effects even further.

 

As the game uses TLOS if you need to move a tree to get a unit into the area terrain then place it back asap in the same place or to gain the same affect until it can be placed back to the trees starting position. If it cant be put back in a place to simulate the same cover (aka move it depending on the firers los, to the fires advantage) then leave it off the table rather then placing it to unjustly block TLOS to a undeserving unit/models advantage.

 

I find this is the only way to do it withing RAW, but that is my opinion.

 

The benefit of doubt should be given to the firer with TLOS and to the target with cover saves (TLOS I can see your tank/model... I'll give you the BOTD, I think I will get a cover save... BOTD. you cant give BOTD to a statement disagreeing with your statement/assertion)

[greatcrusade08]

Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

 

poppycock, true line of sight means just that.. if by some chance the trees were blocking LOS (easily checkable btw) then by moving them your essentially cheating.. and TLOS means the trees are NOT there for decoration, they serve an LOS blocking purpose too.

true its hard to imagine a single tree blocking LOS, but a few trees and a half obscured tank and it could be a different story

[Leonaides]

But in the given question, the guy moved the trees over to the side so he could move his models into the terrain. In doing so he positioned them in front of his missle launchers. Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

 

What he should have done here is remove them completely from the table if he wanted to move his models through the wood and needed to move them - not move them to somewhere else on the table where they werent supposed to be.

[Seahawk]

Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

This is about as incorrect as one can get. Every tree, shrub, or boulder is as important as any model in your army. These elements define the terrain and block LOS. They aren't just battlefield markers; again, there is zero abstraction in 5th edition. What you see is what you get with the terrain; if all you have are skinny pine trees that don't really block LOS then sucks to be your vehicle as it doesn't get any cover. If you have super thick shade trees that could block out a superheavy, well guess what your LOS is blocked.

[Jacinda]

Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

This is about as incorrect as one can get. Every tree, shrub, or boulder is as important as any model in your army.

OK. You win. I'll just put the trees where they do me the most good any time I am around them.

[greatcrusade08]

OK. You win. I'll just put the trees where they do me the most good any time I am around them.

 

forgive me if im wrongm, but this sounds as though you move your trees during the game?

trees as all terrain are deployed pre game and its cheating to move them ingame.. if your moving it by accident or becuase you need to access teh area thats fine, aslong as it goes back in its correct place.. to move trees to "do you the most good" is wrong end of

[Jacinda]

Read the OP. That is what happened. Those trees were not in front of the missle launchers until the player moved them to get into the terrain. Those trees are not really there. They were moved during the game.

[Jacinda]

Does anyone have the small rule book?

 

This is suposedly on page 20 but it is not there in the BRB.

 

"In some cases, it will be difficult to tell if line of sight is blocked or not, so players might have to stoop over the table for a model’s eye view. This is the best way to determine whether or not a line of sight exists. The only time you don’t use this method is when you want to draw a line of sight into or past Area Terrain (see page 21, Line of Sight & Area Terrain), or an ongoing assault combat – this is dealt with later."

 

Maybe it is from an earlier printing. Maybe it is in the hardcover book (all I have with me here is the pdf version, but I can look again when I get home.

 

I know I have read that before but now I can not put my finger on it other than the interwebs and that is always suspect.

 

[ETA]

Nevermind. Scratch that last part. These are 4th Ed rules.

[thade]

Some of the cooler pieces at clubs I've been to actually have the trees socketed or even magnetized into the terrain base, so they're easy to remove and replace as models move through the area. I've also been in a few games with the house-rule that the trees are plowed flat when tanks mulch through them (hence why they get through and at times get immobilized) in which case the trees cease to be an issue for LOS (but models can still duck below the downed trees for "cover"...i.e. it's still area terrain).

 

So, yes, technically moving trees out of the way is against the rules, but sometimes you kind of have to. What it comes down to is whether you're adhering to the Most Important Rule or not. No, really.

 

If the trees were moved innocently (just to get them out of the way to move models) there's no harm in it. When it comes down to who can see who for shooting, go with the most friendly/challenging answer. If one or both of you get angry over it, just dice it off and move along. The game is meant to be fun; we all know very well that the rule set holds up very poorly to "competitive play".

[Seahawk]

Those trees are not really there other than decoration for the area terrain.

This is about as incorrect as one can get. Every tree, shrub, or boulder is as important as any model in your army.

OK. You win. I'll just put the trees where they do me the most good any time I am around them.

But see, that's also wrong. The best way to play them is to place them at the start of the game, only move them when models need to be in that space (and even then just placing them to the side momentarily), and put them back in position or as close as humanly possible when you've moved away or can. This is exactly the process that the rulebook supports.

 

Moving them to different forest plates, purposefully shifting them when you shoot and when your opponent shoots, and any other similar antics are marks of a poor sport (and not prescribed by the rules). The trees block LOS, it says so in the passage I quoted earlier. Gotta get past 4th edition ;).

[Ming]

I just played a game Wednesday where the terrain was just trees and hills. Just area of forest and fields, like a mountain valley in happy spring time.

 

Tree areas (woods) were set up with a line of trees down the long direction of the woods to make sure they could block LOS. The woods and hills awere considered area terrain (cover saves for infantry and difficult terrain for all).

 

One thing we looked up from the BRB was that any model firing through more than 2-inches of area terrain garners a cover save to the target. The BRB is somewhat unclear if that actually applies to shooting at vehicles. Typically the 50% covered rule applies in our FLGS to targeting vehicles, which seems to be the consensus at other game groups. It is one reason why when I have a table set to be forest, I make sure there are enough trees in each area terrain piece - this makes it easier to keep on with the rules as intended w/o argument. Trees are only moved (temporarily) when a unit occupies the same space.

 

Regardless, in the universe of 40K, in reality, no forested area survives contact with the enemy...the emperor and the imperial guard are just not big on sustainability or green building practices. I'd chuck all forested areas for rubbled cities or mounds of ash wastes and craters.

[Jacinda]

So ....

 

1. Can I move the trees to put a model in their place?

 

2. Do the trees block LoS in their new location?

 

3. If I can move the trees, why not move them to my advantage? Tank shocking the terrain!

[thade]

3. If I can move the trees, why not move them to my advantage? Tank shocking the terrain!

Why not move them to your advantage? Because it's volitional cheating. It's not the rule itself that's the issue; it's the character behind your treatment of it that is the issue.

 

This is a minor loophole in the rules; it's minor so long as both players are even-keeled and can chuckle about it, then come to an agreement how how to handle it fairly. If either one of them tries to exploit it to win a $60-$100 box of plastic, he's not a very nice person.

 

When in doubt, I just give them the cover save. I'll still win, because my loyalty to the Emperor is unwavering.

[Jacinda]

I think I will be playing it the way Leonaides said. Just remove the tree from the table. Maybe put a penny in its spot so we can put the tree back if the model moves on.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

When in doubt, I just give them the cover save. I'll still win, because my loyalty to the Emperor is unwavering.

 

Signatured.

[Jacinda]

My final two cents.

There were a couple of things suspect in the whole scenario given.

- Just because LoS goes through a tree does not automatically block LoS. If you can see the target, you can shoot it. Even a large tree is no bigger than a pencil with foliage you can see through like a mesh.

- Moving a tree is fine but it should be moved as little as possible and certianly not moved to where it would obstruct some other part of the battlefield that was not affected before.

 

 

I'm still having a hard time seeing how a tree can completely block LoS. Maybe if it were a solid cone painted with a tree texture. If the models head were right up next to it maybe it would limit vision some but who would move a tree and put it in base contact with a model they were going to shoot with?