Single Paladin Squad as the centerpiece?

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I know we have a lot of threads on Draigo-Wing or mostly Terminator armies, but I was wondering about using a single Paladin Squad as a durable rock type unit and filling in the rest of a 1500-1750 pts army with anything else in the codex. And I mean anything else. The Paladins would be the elite super stars in this list. Don't have to make the Paladins troops either, although of course that is always nice....

 

So let's say start with 5 Paladins. Maybe a couple of Dreadnaughts since they are too good to pass up. What else? Bunch of Strike Squads in Rhinos? Or footslogging? GM or Libby traveling with the Paladins for more of a punch? Bunch of Purifiers (requiring that awful HQ)? Coteaz and henchmen?

 

Would you footslog your Paladins, or stick them in a Raven or Land Raider?

[thade]

There's definitely merit to this idea, as Ork players have been doing it for years. Wound-allocated Nob units are very hard and will soak a ludicrous amount of fire before going down...and they're scary given that they're usually large, have lots of attacks, and more than a few power klaws buried within.

 

Paladins are even more durable (all 2+/5++ whereas Nobz usually rank in at 4+ with a few models having Cybork parts for 5++) and while they have no Waaagh! to back them up, they can have almost as many attacks (with the banner, sometimes more) which are all Force Weapons. On top of that, their firepower is superior to the Nob pack, with Storm Bolters and upgrades like Psycannons. This unit is an anvil.

 

Not taking Draigo means two things (at least): the unit will be effectively cheaper (most IC choices are cheaper than Draigo), and the unit will be Elite instead of Troop, meaning you don't have to feel bad as they die...they are supposed to die so your scoring units don't. (Every round of fire into them is a round your scoring units get to endure.)

 

Without Draigo you lose the one mighty model that can soak the stray lascannon shot without thinking, but Nobz never had such a model to begin with. They'd throw that stray lascannon shot on either the guy with the invuln, the guy who'd already lost a wound, or the guy that already lost a wound and happens to have an invuln. You can do this too. "It ain't no thang," as they say.

 

Personally I would definitely take a unit larger than five...I'd say at least seven or eight, but that's just my gut feeling. Five might do just fine.

 

As for support for them...I'd actually look at the reverse of that. They are support for something else. :P You could do a variant on the old Silent Requiem-pattern, taking two LR Phobos with Strike Squads within, keeping them save while your Paladins and a Dreadknight or something else scary (2++ Librarian who later detaches to charge a massive mob himself or something). Psy-riflemen Dreads are a current favorite, since they can spam S8 shots which are ID terror for MEQ armies and Nob packs. You could spread some more APC-love by taking Razorbacks or Rhinos with Strikes, footslogging one or two other squads.

 

I can see more than a few list-builds working with a Paladin unit tanking for you.

 

EDIT: Was thinking one Dread variant, named another. Fixed.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Personally I would definitely take a unit larger than five...I'd say at least seven or eight, but that's just my gut feeling. Five might do just fine.

 

Yeah I guess it depends. 5 can easily fit in a transport with an HQ. So you get extra protection and mobility from a Land Raider or Storm Raven, or you use those points for more Paladins and/or troops to round out your army. A transport at least mitigates the lack of Draigo The Lascannon Catcher.

 

 

As for support for them...I'd actually look at the reverse of that. They are support for something else. :blink:

 

Excellent point. Even if a GM is taken which can make them scoring, that might not always be ideal. Could be better to outflank or make the dreadnaughts scoring for the home objective... the Paladins can be the distraction that lets the other troops live longer, as you said.... here's one rough idea:

 

GM, Rad Grenades

5 Paladins, 2 psycannons, mixed CC weapons

10 GKSS, 2 psycannons, Rhino

10 GKSS, 2 psycannons, Rhino

 

Storm Raven

2 Psyfleman Dreadnaughts.

 

1500

[thade]

That looks both fluffy and solid at 1500.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Thanks man. Was trying to figure out a Paladin Coteaz list too but couldn't come up with anything I liked.

 

 

Also, I was looking into footslogging the Paladins and rounding out the list with other stuff, but they don't seem nearly as scary marching across the board and taking more high strength ID shots along the way....

[Gentlemanloser]

I love Pallies, they are the epitome of 'Grey Knight' to me. :P

 

So far I've footslogged them, and never had an issue. They are one of the most disliked of my units by my opponents (Vindicare and Coteaz rock up above them), and they really dislike seeing a full 10 man Squad of them.

 

I'm underwhelmed by the Storm Raven in a GK list, and wouldn't use one to transport Pallies. If I liked the model I'd consider a Chimera (maybe if I win the lottery I'll use the FW repressor - I think that's the bits - parts on a Rhino chassis to represent one) to move them around, even lacking Fortitude.

 

All I'd need it for would be a first turn 12" move and disembark the next. Unless there's lots of ID flying around.

 

I feel that Pallies come into their own when used in conjunction with other units in the codex, and not restricted in 'wings' or other themed lists.

 

As for ID, if the most common you'll face is Melta shots, then you can usually outrange them with ease (pop any Speeders with other units first! <_<), and I hardly see any Lascannons now days. If you're lucky enough to have cover around your deployment edge, sticking the Palies into that as close to the edge of it as you can usually means they don't have to do much movement anyway.

 

I wouldn't focus on Pallies for the CC abilities, but rather have them shooting as much MC Psycannon shots as possible. The CC prowess is nice for being charged, or having to take out armour.

 

Let the other, better units, in the 'dex pick up any CC potency you need! ;)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Yeah I never played with a Deathstar type unit before, so like I said, I am a bit afraid to just have them walk around.

 

But you also seem to be saying that Paladins are mostly for shooting. If that's their man function, seems like Purifiers would make more sense. Didn't crunch the numbers on that so I could be wrong....

 

You mentioned Coteaz.... how do you run him with Paladins? I am curious about the mix between GK units and Inquisitor ones....

[jeffersonian000]

I've had fun and good luck with 750pt army based around a 5-man Paladin squad.

 

;) Brotherhood Champion w/ Psybolts

 

;) 5-man Paladin Squad w/ 2x Psycannon, 1x MC-NFH, 2x NFH, 2x NFS (all unique for Wound Allocation)

 

:) 2x 7-man GKISS w/ Psycannon, 3x NFH (each)

 

At this point level, Paladins footslogging with the BroChamp attached and the Strikers holding the backfield can easily overwhelm most opponents. This is about the only place I've had the BroChamp be useful, as he can tarpit any unit that tries to assault the Paladins, while the Pallies destroy one enemy unit each turn. The strikers are just too tough to displace off an objective at this point level. Yes, I could have shaved off a few Strikes to get a better HG, or used an OM Inq in TDA + Psycan to save points, but this build was just way to fun to play.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah I never played with a Deathstar type unit before, so like I said, I am a bit afraid to just have them walk around.

 

I don't see Pallies as a TH/SS or TWC type of Deathstar. That come charging (out of a LR for the TH/SS) right at you and whomp faces. ;)

 

Pallies are a stubborn to remove, durable unit that soaks up fire and attention, while dishing out some serious damage, and are a pain to remove by either shooting or CC.

 

But you also seem to be saying that Paladins are mostly for shooting. If that's their man function, seems like Purifiers would make more sense. Didn't crunch the numbers on that so I could be wrong....

 

4 x MC Psycannons and a Large Blast. ;)

 

If you want CC, then Pallies ain't it, as you get less attacks because of their cost. As you mention, Purifiers are the main GK CC unit, but the best one in the 'dex are the DCA. They're scary. ;)

 

You mentioned Coteaz.... how do you run him with Paladins? I am curious about the mix between GK units and Inquisitor ones....

 

I sat a 10 man squad in the middle of the board with Coteaz versus a WWP Deldar opponent. I'd mentioned Coteaz to him prior to the game, but his ability had been, lost in conversation/forgotten.

 

Deldar came out of the WWP in Range of Coteaz+Pallies and the combination of both killed every unit that deployed, as they deployed.

 

I'm sure it would work nicely versus Dameons, or DP armies, coupled with Warp Quake on Strikes/Interceptors. ;) (Edit: Especially Vulkan/DoA Bangles that try to drop Meltas in range of your Pallies to ID them! :))

 

And Coteaz's Sanctuary makes trying to assault the Pallies even more risky!

[number6]

I'm running a Mordrak + Paladin list where the pallies are more of a support unit than the stars of the show. I like it more than I thought I would! :)

 

Limited use of Paladins can be put to decent use. You don't have to have Draigo and go whole hog.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL!

 

Join us Number6! Turn to the dark side! :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think a good number of players have figured out you don't have to bring Draigo to the party to effectively field Paladins. Sure they are very good at shooting but they are also one of the best units for melee if used properly. DCA are very strong as well but a glass cannon if ever there was one.

 

G :blink:

[Crynn]

Yeah I never played with a Deathstar type unit before, so like I said, I am a bit afraid to just have them walk around.

 

I don't see Pallies as a TH/SS or TWC type of Deathstar. That come charging (out of a LR for the TH/SS) right at you and whomp faces. ;)

 

Pallies are a stubborn to remove, durable unit that soaks up fire and attention, while dishing out some serious damage, and are a pain to remove by either shooting or CC.

 

But you also seem to be saying that Paladins are mostly for shooting. If that's their man function, seems like Purifiers would make more sense. Didn't crunch the numbers on that so I could be wrong....

 

4 x MC Psycannons and a Large Blast. ;)

 

If you want CC, then Pallies ain't it, as you get less attacks because of their cost. As you mention, Purifiers are the main GK CC unit, but the best one in the 'dex are the DCA. They're scary. ;)

 

You mentioned Coteaz.... how do you run him with Paladins? I am curious about the mix between GK units and Inquisitor ones....

 

I sat a 10 man squad in the middle of the board with Coteaz versus a WWP Deldar opponent. I'd mentioned Coteaz to him prior to the game, but his ability had been, lost in conversation/forgotten.

 

Deldar came out of the WWP in Range of Coteaz+Pallies and the combination of both killed every unit that deployed, as they deployed.

 

I'm sure it would work nicely versus Dameons, or DP armies, coupled with Warp Quake on Strikes/Interceptors. ;) (Edit: Especially Vulkan/DoA Bangles that try to drop Meltas in range of your Pallies to ID them! :tu:)

 

And Coteaz's Sanctuary makes trying to assault the Pallies even more risky!

 

I also use coteaz with 10 paladins and I agree with your description of the unit except one point being combat. Purifiers are not really a combat unit they are good in combat but they are also amazing at shooting. They have more shooting and cc attacks/shots than paladins for the point but for around 1/4 the durability. Pallies are actually amazing in combat as they shrug off most dmg and while I use my paladins a lot for shooting in almost all cases if I could have them in combat I would, maybe that's because my paladins have a GM with all the grenades. You have to rememeber that combat is also about winning combat not just killing units and it is much harder to put wounds on terminators than strikes, for instanc.e I had a tyranid player charge me with furious charge poison gaunts that wound on a 4+ with re-rolls, now I know purifiers have cleansing flame however due to synapse it is unlikely they would have passed it. Now I won combat by 14 taking 4 wounds on my terminators on average if they had been purifiers I would have won combat by only 8 due to having no invul against rending genestealers that were also involved in the combat (hormagaunts as well) which means when his gaunts, genesteelers and hormies took fearless save each would be taking 6 less wounds, that means my paladins would have dealt an extra 18 wounds that round over the purifiers, also purifiers loose power weapon attacks in order to gain their psycannons, the paladins do not.

Nothing against purifiers, just that their are advantages the pallies have in combat over them, inclusing actually getting there.

 

 

This is a link to my battle reports with my paladins with coteaz. so far so good with around 12 wins no losses or draws.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=236140

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem is that more and more dedicated CC units are equppied with either Power Weapon or Fist Equivalents. Which negate the major durability of Paladins over Purifiers, and we're heaidng towards the best defense is the best offense.

 

And Puri's get more I6 Attacks to kill off opponents (to reduce incoming wounds) than Paladin equivalents (Not including the awesome Cleansing flame).

 

I'm not trying to knock Pallies, I think they are an awesome unit.

 

But they aren't the best GK CC unit, and they're not the best CC unit in the codex. B)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

DCA are great in melee but they are also a glass hammer... They kill one unit or even better multi charge then often the return fire destroys them. If they have a character attached with grenades it's really brutal. You can arm Paladins with halberds and the Brotherhood banner so they can strike at a high initiative and put out a high number of attacks as well. They can also absorb a lot more shooting due to 2W each and an invulnerable save. 10 Purifiers are roughly the same cost as 5 Paladins depending on how you equip them. 10 Purifiers in close combat with halberds and a couple of hammers is bad news... They will do a lot more damage than five Paladins. It just depends on what you want and how the unit integrates with the rest of the army.

 

G :P

[Crynn]

All good points BO and gentleman looser. I guess the banner makes the paladins close to as good as the purifiers but the reall kicker is most purifier units trade a lot of CC potential for psycannons but the paladins do not. If you are dedicating 10 purifiers to CC then I agree they are better than the paladins, however if you take 4 psy cannons in each unit I think point for point the paladins are as good if not better than the purifiers. 3 attacks to 2 with between a 4-5+ invuln makes them much tougher versus purifiers or other assault units. My paladins haven't lost a combat yet, though grenades helps tremendously.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Gentlemanloser]

but the reall kicker is most purifier units trade a lot of CC potential for psycannons but the paladins do not. If you are dedicating 10 purifiers to CC then I agree they are better than the paladins, however if you take 4 psy cannons in each unit I think point for point the paladins are as good if not better than the purifiers.

 

Even with max Psycannons the Puri's put out more (potential) damage.

 

Ignoring CF, you get 6 NF Weapons (a mix of Hammers/Halberds, just like the Pallies) with a 10 man squad with 4 Psycannons for (let's assume only a single NDH) 295 points.

 

5 Pallies (with 1 NDH and 4 NFH) with 2 Psycannons costs you 315.

 

The Puri's are 20 points cheaper, get 2 more NFW attacks and 6 more Storm bolter shots (with the same Psycannon shots - assuming movement).

 

Plus cleasning Flame. ;)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Don't forget Paladins have Weapon Skill 5. They are going to hit more often with their attacks, even if they are fewer in number. OTOH, Purifiers have Cleansing Flame, so that may be a wash in many cases.

[thade]

Don't forget Paladins have Weapon Skill 5. They are going to hit more often with their attacks, even if they are fewer in number. OTOH, Purifiers have Cleansing Flame, so that may be a wash in many cases.

I think this still falls in favor of the Paladins, Cleansing Flame allows armor saves and none of the melee attacks by the Paladins do. Still, CF is very nice against horde units: the sheer number of hits it's capable of is impressive.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget Paladins have Weapon Skill 5

 

Good point! :D

 

But I still think it's a wash, as most of the good C units of other dexes have WS5, making both Pallies and Puri's hit on 4's anyway.

 

Cleansing Flame allows armor saves and none of the melee attacks by the Paladins do

 

But none of the Puri's melee attacks allow armour saves either, and the wounds from CF are pure extra, that also come before any return attacks can be made.

 

(Well, CF versus CF problems aside! ;))

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is a comparison of Paladins versus Purifiers. I chose a unit of five versus ten since the points cost close for the two.

 

Note

OTM - on the move

OTC - on the charge

 

 

Paladins

Paladin #1 - halberd & psycannon

Paladin #2 - master crafted halberd & psycannon

Paladin #3 - daemonhammer & stormbolter

Paladin #4 - halberd & stormbolter

Standard Bearer - Brotherhood Banner & stormbolter

Psybolt Ammo

 

> Shooting at full strength OTM:

 

8x S7 AP4 rending

6x S5 AP5

 

> Attacks in melee on the OTC (Hammerhand activated) 

 

12x I6 S5

4x S10

4x S5 (armor saves apply)

 

Cost = 335

 

Advantages

• 2 wounds/model

• Fully Complex

• WS5

• Daemonhammers and halberds are free

• Deep Strike

• Relentless

• Invulnerable save

 

 

Purifiers

Knight of the Flame - halberd & stormbolter

Purfier #1 - halberd & stormbolter

Purifier #2 - halberd & stormbolter

Purifier #3 - halberd & stormbolter

Purifier #6 - daemonhammer & stormbolter

Purifier #7 - daemonhammer & stormbolter

Purifier #8 - psycannon

Purifier #9 - psycannon

Purifier #9 - psycannon

Purifier #10 - psycannon

Psybolt Ammo

Rhino

 

> Shooting at full strength OTM:

 

8x S7 AP4 rending

12x S5 AP5

 

> Attacks in melee on the OTC (Hammerhand activated):

 

12x I6 S5 force weapons

6x S10 force weapons 

12x S5 (armor saves apply)

 

Cost = 348

 

Advantages

• Can be broken into combat squads

• Same ballistic skill as Paladins

• Rhino included

• Fearless

• Cleansing Flame

 

The only major advantage I see for the Purifiers is more daemonhammer attacks plus they are fearless. I think the Paladins are more tactical in nature.

 

G :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don't forget Paladins have Weapon Skill 5

 

Good point! ;)

 

But I still think it's a wash, as most of the good C units of other dexes have WS5, making both Pallies and Puri's hit on 4's anyway.

 

Cleansing Flame allows armor saves and none of the melee attacks by the Paladins do

 

But none of the Puri's melee attacks allow armour saves either, and the wounds from CF are pure extra, that also come before any return attacks can be made.

 

(Well, CF versus CF problems aside! :P)

 

 

I can't follow you on most dedicated melee units having WS5 -

 

WS4 - wyches, beasts, Grey Hunters, Wolfguard, assault Marines, Plague Marines, Boyz, etc.

 

Only a few units have WS5 such as Incubi, Berzerkers and Harlequins. Generally Paladins are hitting on 3+ in melee.

 

CF is great versus hordes but I'd much rather cast HH versus power armor - more bang for the buck versus the 3+.

 

G :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Grey Hunters, Wolfguard, Plague/Assault Marines, etc aren't really dedicated CC units. Don't get me wrong, they can be good in CC (or on the counter attack), but they aren't the dedicated "nasty" CC units to look out for.

 

Add to that, the most, potent, CC units also tend to be the 'uber' ICs and/or MCs, that all usually have a higher WS than 4, (and let's not forget the DCA and even the new Arco's are WS5...) and I feel the point is still valid. I'd actually like to have WS be more important than it currently is. Some times I get to hit stuff on a 3+, that I'm gonna cream anyway, as they aren't a CC unit. /meh

 

MC the pallies can pay for is more of an advantage than thier WS5. :yes:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To be honest I don't face many enemy units that are WS5... There just aren't that many. You are correct though that Grey Hunters are not a dedicated melee unit (including Wolfguard) but that is definitely one of their primary roles. The other units I listed are dedicated melee units such as wyches and assault Marines. While Plague Marines have access to plasma and meltaguns they are also primarily intended for melee. You are basically trying to down play one of the strengths Paladins have over Purifiers.

 

G :P

[Gentlemanloser]

They're 'dedicated' CC units only in so much as they don't have any shooting worth mentioning. That doesn't actually make them 'dedicated' (or good, however we want to label them...) CC units. (And for the Wyches, don't one of thier Combat Drug results give them +1WS? So at least they have the potential for WS5! :P)

 

Assault Marines aren't CC units. It's just a shame that's what they should be. /shrug (Edit: V covers the "whys" awesomely here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...owtopic=237234)

 

Personally while no one could disagree WS5 over WS4 is a buff, I just don't feel it's a noticeable one. WS just isn't that important. Sadly.

 

But then I do face Incubi, Harlies, MCs, Uber ICs and Daemons often in CC. So YMMV if you come up against mostly non CC orientated MSU lists that emphasise shooting over CC.