Single Paladin Squad as the centerpiece?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you're saying assault Marines aren't a dedicated melee unit? I find that one hard to believe.

 

In regards to units that are WS5 think of it this way - they are hitting you on 4+ rather than 3+ and that can be a big difference. It's an advantage either way.

 

G

[Crynn]

So you're saying assault Marines aren't a dedicated melee unit? I find that one hard to believe.

 

In regards to units that are WS5 think of it this way - they are hitting you on 4+ rather than 3+ and that can be a big difference. It's an advantage either way.

 

G :)

 

That is what I was going to say. Also having better armour and an invuln means you also take less damage and thus win combat by a larger margin causing units to flee or causing more wounds through fearless saves. Another thing to add is the only truely dedicated CC (such as Death Company, Incubi etc) unit GKs have is DCAs which are amoungst the best in the game for points.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Valerian]

The Deep Strike ability is what pushes the Paladins over the top for me. If Purifiers just had Deep Strike as an option, then I'd take as many of them as I could fit in a list, but without it, I don't have a place for them. It's a shame, too, as everything else about them is a perfect fit. It's too bad that you have to go mechanized, with Rhinos or Razorbacks, to make them work (or the much more expensive Raider or Raven options).

 

V

[Crynn]

I must say i'm never of a fan of reserves and deepstrike with most units, but with psychic communion and skulls it becomes a very viable deployment method for paladins.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Gentlemanloser]

So you're saying assault Marines aren't a dedicated melee unit? I find that one hard to believe.

 

Not in todays Codexes they're not. /shrug

 

They're Marines with personal mobility. That's all really.

 

In regards to units that are WS5 think of it this way - they are hitting you on 4+ rather than 3+ and that can be a big difference. It's an advantage either way.

 

Of course. But I feel the emphasis is still that GK *kill you first*. And Purifiers do that better than Pallies.

 

Also having better armour and an invuln means you also take less damage and thus win combat by a larger margin causing units to flee or causing more wounds through fearless saves.

 

Or you kill your enemy first, and stop more incoming wounds that way. :)

 

I'm also not really a fan of DSing (without Drop Pods, or the like), but Mech-ing Puri's isn't really an issue. When they seem designed to be potentially the best MSU unit (with 2 Psycannons, a MC Hammer and a S6 HB Razor!).

 

But I wasn't ever trying to claim that Puri's are always the best choice, or Pallies have no place, or anything like that.

 

Just that Pallies aren't a premier CC unit, and excel more with thier shooting than thier CC (And thier survivability ofc!).

 

If you want an uber 'deathstar' CC face whomping unit, there are better choices than Pallies. ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okay I know your opinions on this now. To each their own.

 

G :)

[Archon_77]

My two cents on this comes with a story: We recently reopened our local game shop after about two years off with a 1000 pt tourney. Me being me and having waited FOREVER for GK to be viable, I brought Draigo and 10 of his closest friends and a Lone Paladin to this tourney and flat destroyed with them losing a grand total of TWO paladins against Chaos, Tau, and Smurfs in the respective rounds. As a result for the upcoming acceleration campaign the shop is running my buddies have decided that NO IC's are allowed. I have been told this is directly because of Draigo and how "nothing can beat him, ever". my arguments to the contrary (Old dexes, Throw more S8+ at them, they are at a tactical disadvantage for capture points, IG Pieplates super scary, etc.) have been largly ignored. As a result Im running a list that is STILL paladin heavy, its just now that I have lost my beloved draigo, Im running an apothacary in the squad and a cheap BC HQ. This of course gives me the extra durability I would have gotten from Draigo's shield (to a degree) with FNP.

What's more, as we go on I plan to run a squad of Purifiers in a LRC or Stormraven and use them the same way most use THSS Terms. My thinking is that while my Pallies footslog their way across the board, here comes a giant glass cannon ultra killy unit that is about to get dropped in the face of whomever needs it the most. In this way I'm pretty sure that my paladins can be very much viable, even though they dont score (Termies or GKSS for that depending on points).

Therein lies what I like so very much about the new Dex... our elite units are truly ELITE again, and Paladins are especially viable. What makes both purifiers and pallies so effective is that both units CANNOT be ignored by your opponent. Focus fire on the LR/SR full of purifiers and my paladins get in range to shred you with psycannons. Focus the paladins and you find yourself dealing with angry CC slicing up whatever your shooting my paladins with. This will only get worse as time goes on and more players start to figure out that they need to dedicate most of thier forces to eliminating the paladin squad, freeing up and allowing troops/DK's/Purifiers/Whatevers to win games for me. There is a serious psychological impact to seeing a squad of them across from you that, for me, is enough to make them viable at all points levels for this "OMG I HAVE TO KILL THEM NOW" mentality my oppenents have for them. So yes. I believe them to be enough to serve as the centerpiece in question and from what I have played of them so far it is very effective.

[Valerian]

As a result for the upcoming acceleration campaign the shop is running my buddies have decided that NO IC's are allowed.

 

So, pretty much no Headquarters choices for any army? They're pretty much all ICs. No Sanguinary Priests for Blood Angels? That pretty much screws their whole way of playing.

 

Or, perhaps you meant SCs?

 

V

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

As a result for the upcoming acceleration campaign the shop is running my buddies have decided that NO IC's are allowed. I have been told this is directly because of Draigo and how "nothing can beat him, ever". my arguments to the contrary ...

 

No offense, but you appear to know some very stupid and/or ignorant people. "Nothing can beat him, ever" is a ridiculously absurd and false statement. Draigo is a beast and is very powerful, but he can be beaten. For Pete's sake I killed him using a missile spam list, and we all know how crappy missiles do against an army of mostly 2+ saves. Even then, Draigo still died. In a list that is pretty bad against DraigoWing. He's not invincible. Him and his Paladins are in fact quite vulnerable to high strength low AP shots, especially when each dude costs so much. Plasma, lascannons, lances, melta guns, and let's not forget pie plates of death. Plenty of counters. Your buddies need to suck it up and/or buy a clue.

[ChaosPhoenix]

As a result for the upcoming acceleration campaign the shop is running my buddies have decided that NO IC's are allowed. I have been told this is directly because of Draigo and how "nothing can beat him, ever". my arguments to the contrary ...

 

No offense, but you appear to know some very stupid and/or ignorant people. "Nothing can beat him, ever" is a ridiculously absurd and false statement. Draigo is a beast and is very powerful, but he can be beaten. For Pete's sake I killed him using a missile spam list, and we all know how crappy missiles do against an army of mostly 2+ saves. Even then, Draigo still died. In a list that is pretty bad against DraigoWing. He's not invincible. Him and his Paladins are in fact quite vulnerable to high strength low AP shots, especially when each dude costs so much. Plasma, lascannons, lances, melta guns, and let's not forget pie plates of death. Plenty of counters. Your buddies need to suck it up and/or buy a clue.

 

Tell me about it. In germany, nearly all tournaments and even more gaming clubs have an anti-special-character-policy. You can't even use bad special characters.

[Archon_77]

Aye, I do stand corrected, its NO SC's and not No IC's. And I concur that they seriously need to suck it up. I wish I could say this was the first time something like this has happened locally; but this happens pretty much every time there is a new dex out.... every cries cries cries about it instead of THINKING about how to COUNTER it. But then again, their stupidity and short sightedness wins me a LOT of games, both with my main GK's and my off Raven Guard. I just spent a good hour or so today with one of these players telling him EXACTLY how Draigo Death Star units can be countered, and he simply would not listen to reason. Apparently I "don't understand that my codex is overpowered and only win becaue of that". I didn't have the heart or the patience to tell him I've been playing GK for the better part of three years now, and while they are definately better than they were thus far in 5th, they still suffer from the major disadvantages they always have, Low model count and ultra expensive everything. This same player STOOD THERE with Chaos out in the open as I literally shot him to pieces in tournament play earlier this month, not bothering to use cover to get up close were he could do some damage with his Khorne units.

 

I will forever maintain that any army can beat any other army if played correctly and wisely, and this coming from literally YEARS of playing pure GK when we had no anti-vehicle (save godhammers), and no transportation options of our own (save the aforementioned LR or LRCs or teleporting).

 

I suspect the main issue with Draigo and Paladins in general is just that. We're GK's and not an "easy win" anymore. Heaven forbid our oppenents have to adapt better tactics than "I'll just stand here and eat your bolter fire with my tank as I run it across the board to disgorge its contents and crush you in CC" or "here is my amazing shooting IG that can destroy you from 48" since you can do nothing till you get to 24". The list is good, but not "forbid you from taking units good" else GW would have done something about it by now, literally almost 6 months after release.