Bolters and Power Armor

[Angelwinged]

Some background on me. I have been involved in shooting for about 6 years and have a solid understanding of ballistics, bullets, and armor. I load my own ammunition at home for long distance shooting and understand exterior and terminal ballistics of different bullet designs, calibers, and construction. I have taught concealed weapon courses, studied the real life performance of many different types of ammunition against many different types of targets. It really is a science, so I wanted to lend some expertise to the topic of bolters and armor. What they can do, and what they cant do.

 

The Bolter - Fires what amounts to a miniature rocket (by the fluff) but the truth is that such a large projectile would have great flexibility for choosing different loadings. It would be very easy to load a magazine with 1 : 1 of High Explosive Armor Piercing HEAP, or dedicated Sabot rounds which would have a .30 caliber or .35 caliber ultra hard dart, launched at incredible velocities, or even pure fragmentation rounds that simulate a hand grenade going off on impact. Incendiary rounds, tracers, or any combination of these qualities could be loaded into such a large caliber round. The possibility of a micro Explosive Formed Penetrator round also exists.

 

A space marine armed with a bolter would have great flexibility in the ammunition he wanted to use for different threats. If facing lightly armored humans or eldar he could load his magazines with Fragmentation rounds that would blow the target to piece and shred anyone nearby with shrapnel, and if he was facing larger monsters or light vehicles he would use the HEAP or Sabot loads for penetration. For the sake of simplicity the rulebook gives 1 value to the strength and AP of a bolter, but if WK40K were more realistic the bolter would have a very wide range of strength/penetration values determined by the specific load being used at the time.

 

One space marine would be a veritable light armored fighting vehicle with the equivalent of a hand held automatic grenade launcher/75 cal light anti tank rifle. Which brings me to power armor. Modern armor uses many different materials from kevlar to plastics, to ceramics, to boron carbide (being the toughest) and even modern armor can stop multiple direct hits of armor piercing .30 caliber ammunition within a 1 inch area. Assuming that power armor is made of ceramite, a more advanced material, and twice or three times as thick as the 1 inch thick armor worn by men today, then power armor would be extremely tough and difficult to defeat.

 

Power armor would be essentially invulnerable for all intents and purposes to anything except

 

Plasma weapons

Melta Weapons

Direct Krak missile hits

Las Cannons

High caliber armor piercing ammunition from vehicle mounted cannons

Armor piercing Bolter rounds

Power weapons

Railguns

And other high penetration weapons.

 

Consider a space marine is a quick moving target, extremely motivated, well armored, heavily armed, and super tough, the possibility of actually killing a space marine with a bolter is more slim than you might think. When a round is loaded to be an armor piercing round, it is usually loaded with a super hard core such as tungsten or depleted uranium so that it can punch through the armor. Or the use of a smaller caliber sabot fired at incredible speeds is used. Either of these options sacrifices terminal performance (damage inside the target) for superior penetration. So in the example of a .35 caliber sabot round penetrating the power armor of a space marine, it would simply poke a .35 caliber hole through the space marine.

 

A space marine is 7-8 feet tall and tank of a man. Having a .35 caliber hole shot through him would have next to no effect unless an arterty, the heart, spine, or brain was impacted. The sabot or penetrator would not cause much tissue disruption and go in and out, and because tissue is elastic, it would close back up as soon as the penetrator passed. One might say "You could just aim for the heart or head" but this is much easier said than done when the target is running, taking cover, using concealment, turning, and not presenting an easy target for you to shoot at. You could score multiple direct torso shots with your penetrator rounds and depending on the angle of impact, they might not strike the vital areas at all.

 

A space marine has incredible blood clotting ability, two hearts, and three lungs, meaning the possibility of a bleed out or loss of consciousness is remote. Poking small holes in him with penetrators would be easy for his super human body to close up and ignore. Its true internal organ damage might occur, but would not impair the marines ability to continue fighting and killing. Space marines would be incredibly dangerous in their intended role, Shock Troops. At close range it would be very difficult to bring anti tank weapons to bear, and easy to miss. All other forms of hand held man portable weapons would have next to no effect (unless they were from the list mentioned earlier, but most troops lack such expensive and powerful weapons)

 

I know the 40k fluff may be different than this, but the people writing the fluff probably do not have as much experience or study on the subject of ballistics. Im not saying anyone has to like or agree with my assessment, but it is here for anyone to read and consider.

[Grand Master Belial]

That is actually pretty insightful and makes the space marine seem more special with this analysis. It makes the movie marine actually more plausible. Even going back to 2nd Ed. there were different types of Bolter rounds that functioned the same way as you described.

 

I would pose a couple of questions to you.

How does ceramite take damage? Does it crack or craze, shatter, or is it malleable enough that the high speed projectile would move the armor out of the way like a finger through clay. I tend to think it would shatter and spall when hit.

 

What about the other armor types available to the Imperium?

 

For the non-shooters out there, can you explain the meaning of calibre? And why it is useful?

[Eerie]

I would pose a couple of questions to you.

How does ceramite take damage? Does it crack or craze, shatter, or is it malleable enough that the high speed projectile would move the armor out of the way like a finger through clay. I tend to think it would shatter and spall when hit.

 

How shall he know, ceramite is a ficticious sci-fi material, not something that really exists. So how it takes damage is up to the GW author who writes it. :P

 

And caliber is basically the diameter of a round, generally measured in inches (.50 caliber means the round is half an inch in diameter).

 

To the topic, it's often been described that Marines are capable of taking bolter rounds without going down.

 

In the Ultramarines movie many (Chaos) Marines drop dead after one shot to the torso, that is to be seen in the same light as the James Bond evil henchmen dropping dead on the spot after being shot randomly by 007 and his Walther pistol. It's a movie, not more, not less. How much a Marine can take before going down has been and will be always determined by the plot, not by scientific thought.

[Alkana]

I don't think you mentioned the part where bolters explode after penetration of the target.

[Angelwinged]

This is true. Bolter rounds are supposed to explode upon penetration of the armor. But it is difficult for me to believer that a bolter round would actually impact with enough speed to penetrate the breastplate of power armor (the thickest portion) unless it was a sabot/AP round, which doesnt leave too much room left for an explosive charge. But for the sake of the fluff, I suppose it is possible for a gram or two of high explosive to be included on the bolt Also this talk about "Mass Reactive" is kind of silly. That is essentially a magic bullet. It somehow knows NOT to explode when it is going into the mass of the armor, but then once it hits soft flesh it knows to explode? lol... The technology required to miniaturize a little computer, sensors, AND the penetrator and explosives all into a single .75 round the size of a grenade would be very incredible. Maybe if it was on a time delay it would be possible.

 

As far as ceramite goes, I can only base my assumptions on ceramite from modern ceramic body armor. Lets imagine that ceramite is even more durable, heat resistant, and thicker. It would function by being incredibly hard (so bullets shatter against it), and thick enough to absorb the impact and shock, as well as absorb significant amounts of heat. To give an example, when I go to the shooting range there is this 12x12 inch plate set up at 200 meters which is about 3 or 4 inches thick of hardened steel. Everyone shoots at it for fun. It is hanging by two thick chains, so when you hit it you hear a loud THWAP sound. It doesnt even move when hit by a 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm (m16 and ak47 rounds respectively) it just makes the thwap sound. Those bullets just scratch the surface and might make an indentation a few milimeters deep. Practically zero effect! I even shoot it with hardened steel penetrator rounds and the effect is barely any different. I have yet to see an armor piercing 50bmg bullet take a shot at it, but I imagine that is the only rifle caliber with the potential to do any damage at all. All other small arms have ZERO effect.

 

So if we imagine ceramite is somewhat like that, super hard, very thick in some places, not so thick in other places, then practically the entire suit of power armor would be capable of thousand thousands of hits from autogun and lasgun fire and sustaining only cosmetic damage with a few mm of penetration (the marine would hear the impacts but feel almost nothing at all) even on the thinner sections of armor. Impacts of heavy machine gun armor piercing might be able to penetrate the thinner portions of the armor, but still have a hell of a time penetrating the breast plate or shoulder armor.

 

Field repair with this type of armor would be rather simple because tech priests would likely be able to apply a "filler" to fill up the holes made by previous shots that have put significant craters or ripped into the ceramite in some way. It would be like super heating some ceramite into a paste, applying it into the craters, then allowing it to cool in place. It wouldnt be perfect, but for battle field repair it would be something over nothing.

 

What would really smoke through ceramite? Assault cannons with AP rounds would shred a marine. The sheer volume of fire would gaurantee a thin spot in the armor was breached and take huge chunks out of the very thick portions of armor. To put it in perspective an assault cannon shoots a bullet with maybe 3-4 times the mass of a bolter so it would have a much greater ability to punch through, and probably fires 10 rounds per second on the very low end, up to 100 rounds per second on the high end (dreads probably have a lower rate of fire to conserve ammo, and large vehicles would have higher rate of fire to match their increased ammo capacity) And the forementioned special weapons...melta...plasma...direct AP missile impacts (though glancing shots or limb shots would only wound, not kill)

 

Other forms of armor...

 

Flak armor - absolute garbage. In the ultra lethal battlefield of 40k, flak armor would almost not be worth wearing. Maybe if it is used in conjunction with thin ceramite inserts, or hard armor internal plates, it would offer protection against auto guns and lasgun hits. But just flak by itself would offer zero protection against anything but fragments from grenades and shrapnel from explosions. If a bolter round hit you, your torso would explode and your buddies would get shrapnel sprayed over them from the explosion. One bolter round could potentially take out a room full of guard troopers. (Frag round)

 

Power armor - Life on easy mode

 

Terminator armor - God mode - With double the mass of power armor the ability to soak up damage from exotic weapons would go up. So even plasma hits would be absorbed by your heavy thick ceramite armor. Depending on where you were hit of course. You would be able to absorb literally thousands of lasgun and autogun hits, hundreds of bolter hits (only joints and eyes would be vulnerable) and you would even be able to withstand direct fire from assault cannons for a short period of time. As usual, the good old anti tank rocket would cause problems, as well as melta guns, power weapons, etc. Since terminators can teleport directly into weak points, the enemy rear, or command posts, the potential for such heavy firepower being ready to use against them is next to zero. Who keeps ten guys with missile launchers on standby in the command post? Who would even fire missiles within a confined command post? No sane person. So only elite command units who have power armor or better, power weapons, melta/plasma weapons, would have any hope of downing a terminator.

 

Not to mention the fact terminators carry dual soul rapers (storm bolters) that could down a squad of infantry with one burst of fire, or larger armored infantry with bursts of AP rounds. They have assault cannons, cyclone missile launchers, storm shields (lets not get into how ridiculous that would be) thunder hammers, etc. You cant judge a unit simply by armor and weapons, but also by how and where they can fight (i.e. teleporting into weak points, their speed, environment, etc)

 

Scout armor - Some sections as good as power armor, but others only as good as flak armor. This armor sacrifices protection for mobility and speed, which is a defense in itself. If you can run faster, hide better, avoid detection and avoid engagements you might lose, that is a defense in itself.

 

It would be difficult to list all the armor of all the races of 40k, but you can imagine they fall somewhere into the categories listed here. Some would be closer to power armor than flak armor, some would be just as tough, but cover less of the body, or some might cover the entire body but be thinner and less resilient.

 

I know that someone asked about caliber before. As someone mentioned, caliber is simply the distance between the lands of the rifling in the barrel. For example a .223 (commonly known as 5.56mm) round actually shoots a .224 caliber bullet. The bullet is slightly wider by .001 of an inch so that when it is fired it provides a good seal inside the barrel as it is pushed down the barrel. Some of its copper jacket is left in the barrel (very little) and this is how you get copper build up in the barrel over time and it has to be cleaned out with a strong solvent. Anyone who served in the military can recall many hours cleaning out their barrels with some powerful smelling copper solvent, a cleaning rod, and little patches.

 

Anyway it is important to make a distinction between calibers and cartridges. Caliber only indicates the distance between the lands in the rifling, it does not tell you everything about the cartridge. And example for this is the 50BMG (browning machine gun) and the 50AE (Action express) The 50BMG is 12.7x99mm cartridge that fires bullets weighing anywhere from 500gr to 800gr. The lighter bullets go faster but are less accurate (longer and sleeker rounds buck the wind drift better and have higher aerodynamic values for retaining energy better at long range). The 50AE is fired out of the popular desert eagle handgun (this gun is ridiculous, I would never carry it ever) and it has a cartridge dimension of 12.7x33mm so it is the same width but much much shorter.

 

50BMG - About 2800 fps velocity with 600 gr bullet 12,000 ft/lbs energy, .5 ballistic coefficent

50AE - About 1400 fps with 300gr bullet / 1000 ft/lbs energy .2 ballistic coefficient

 

So despite them having the same caliber bullet, they are completely different cartridges. They are suited for different purposes obviously. So its very possible that in the 40k universe you have .75 caliber bolt pistols and .75 caliber bolter rifles, but they shoot two different cartridges. So your bolt pistol would use shortened cartridges with much lower velocities than the longer bolter rifle cartridges. The bolt pistol would not need the same speed since it is designed to be used within 50 meters, but the bolter rifle would need a large size to launch the shell/bullet out at higher velocities for longer distances. Still, a bolter rifle is probably only suited for use within 300 meters.

 

Anyway I hope this has been entertaining for you

[WeaponAdept]

I'm an Armourer in the British Army. Weapons bombs and bullets are my lifes work.

You're insights and ruminations are clearly educated and reinforced by real life experiance. Good fluff!

I wish I had the time tonight to add my own comments and thoughts.

 

I'm an Armourer in the British Army. Weapons bombs and bullets are my lifes work.

You're insights and ruminations are clearly educated and reinforced by real life experiance. Good fluff!

I wish I had the time tonight to add my own comments and thoughts.

[skawolf]

Thanks for posting this info, made for an interesting read.

[Angelwinged]

LostBritain I envy your line of work. But I am happy I live in the States at least because I can still own some fun stuff. My favorite gun I own is a Steyr AUG with a suppressor. Bullpups > M4/M16 I never got to shoot the British Bullpup though, is it the L85? I dont recall the nomenclature of your weapons. A damn shame is that the British invented the 7mm bullpup rifle back in the 50's but we pushed strongly for the 7.62 nato instead. A bullpup 7mm wouldve been an incredible rifle. Silly Yanks ruining everything :)

[Pigeons]

love this thread and i've got a question for you

 

 

 

do you have any idea how much bolter AMMO a space marine could carry? or would typically carry,i guess.

 

 

 

because looking at all the artwork, those clips are HUGE. i tend to imagine just ten rounds per clip(two rows of 5), so the clip in the weapon(cause as shock troops they're obviously going in locked and loaded) and then maybe, at most, four extra clips(two on each side of the waist...not sure where else they'd keep them due to the size)

 

 

so basically, just 50 rounds. which sounds pretty low, but like you, i imagine a single round in an enclosed area could take out multiple targets, and since they're shock troops, literally landing either right ONTO the enemy(with jump packs) directly on top of them(teleportation) or amid them/very close to their lines(with drop pods), they would close into close combat extremely quickly. and once they're IN close combat, it's basically over. chainswords, power swords, axes and fists, flame weapons, pistols, their power armored limbs, grenades and demolition packs....not a lot that can stand up to weapons like that wielded by giant supermen :devil:

 

 

so the ammo seems about right to me. because, like you said, they're shock troops. six month long sieges of fortresses are not for them, they leave that to the imperial guard. they hit command centers, enemy leaders, capital cities and etc....chop off the head and let the imperial guard come in and kill the body.

 

 

 

so with all this in mind, i think the amount of ammo of 50 rounds or so(for a bolter) sounds plausible, but what do you think, being muchhhh more knowledgeable than i am? (never fired a gun in my life)

[Angelwinged]

I think 50 rounds is too little. Remember that a space marine is a hulk of man and machine, 7-8 feet tall without armor on. So 8-9 feet tall with armor. They are physically capable of carrying hundreds of pounds of equipment, and this is before their augmented strength with armor. So it is feasible that a space marine could carry a hundred pounds or more of ammunition with little effect on his overal performance.

 

A bolter is .75 caliber, or roughly 20mm. It should not be compared to a 20mm chaingun catridge because that would be excessively powerful for the needs of a space marine. A space marine is a shock troop built around deep striking and delivering death at close ranges, probably the longest being a few hundred meters. Consider that most modern combat occurs in urban environments and the future is likely full of cities, factories, and built up areas. A space marine would excel at this. The bolter need not be a full power 20mm anti armor round which is about 20x100mm in size. That is a full power 20mm which has a muzzle velocity around 1000m/sec out of a very long barrel (maybe 3 feet long)

 

A bolter is a man portable weapon that needs to be short and effective for close range combat. It would be ridiculous for a space marine to be kicking in the door of a building and trying to clear the building with a weapon that is 4 feet long. A space marine needs something more suited to his work, so the bolter rifle is more like a modern day M4, just significantly bulkier and heavier to manage firing a much more powerful cartridge. Lets just say for the sake of having a modern example to look at that the bolter round looks like a PAW-20 round, which is 20x42mm. So it is a half-power 20mm cannon round. But when you consider just how powerful that is, it is PLENTY powerful for nearly any threat a space marine would encounter.

 

The bolter rifle itself would probably be 10kilos or more to handle the recoil of such a large round, and the barrel would be very heavy and thick so as to not overheat quickly. It would be extremely difficult for a normal human being to wield a bolter, only the biggest and toughest and well trained imperial guard soldiers could hope to do so.

 

So back to the question of how much ammo a marine would carry. Sorry I get lost sometimes haha. A space marine is not usually depicted as being covered in magazines of bolter ammo, but for combat he would definitely be bringing as much ammo as he could fit on his armor because they always fight outnumbered and never know what horrors they might run into. Generally if you are calling in the space marines, the :blink: has hit the fan. One limitation of magazines is the robustness of the magazine itself and how strong the springs have to be to feed the weight of the ammunition up into the chamber. One problem is the large bolter rounds would be very heavy and require very strong heavy springs to push them up into the chamber, so this would place a limit on the magazine capacity. You would probably have magazine of about 20 rounds in a box configuration (FN FAL style looking) or possibly even coffin style magazines that held 40 rounds, and drum magazines that hold 50 rounds. These would be very heavy and only a space marine could carry them. Few human beings would be able to handle a 10+kg rifle AND then another 5-10kg of ammo hanging off the magazine for very long.

 

So considering each round would be about 4 inches long and an inch wide, then staggered/double stacked inside a magazine. A loaded 20 round magazine would be about 5 inches long, 2 inches wide, and weigh maybe 4-5 kg. Magazines would be a kg by themselves since they need to be very robust to handle such large ammunition. A space marine would probably be able to carry 20 or so 20 round magazines. 20 magazines x 4 = 80kg or 160 or so pounds of ammunition. 400 rounds. Magazines would be a combination of ammunition types, some a mixture of rounds, or some dedicated to either fragmentation or armor penetration.

 

A human being could carry a bolter that was smaller and made for firing bolt pistol rounds which would be even smaller, but to think a human would carry a 20 pound rifle, plus the 10lb magazines...ha... he would only carry a couple of magazines. But it would pack a punch.

[Pigeons]

hmmmmmmmm.....i get your thinking. i just wasn't thinking of clips of ammo all over the armor because you never really see that in the artwork or on the models. but yeah if you loaded them up i suppose they could carry a boat load haha....still in the grand scheme, 400 or so rounds still isn't much when you're typically going to be outnumbered thousands to one...especially if you're fighting guard or tyranids haha Edited September 4, 2011 by Pigeons

[Angelwinged]

It may not seem like enough, but considering that lasgun hits would probably just make the space marines armor get warm/hot, and not penetrate enough to do any damage to the marine himself... And that the marines would be carving a path right through the guard and going straight for their command post to wipe out their leadership and direction. The marines decapitate the leadership, then carve up the remaining forces one bit at a time with their high mobility, high survivability, high firepower forces.

 

Also this is just what 1 tactical marine would carry. A heavy weapons team would be packing more punch. Rhinos, razor backs, predators, land speeders, bike squadrons, dreadnaughts, terminators, etc. Just imagine youre in a trench shooting at space marines coming at you. Your las bolts would do practically nothing (the further away they are, the less energy your shots have due to atmospheric dispersion. So by the time they are close enough for your las bolts to do much they are already dumping high explosive frag rounds on your head. If you stand up, youre dead, if you take cover, then you are just going to be waiting for a space marine to jump into your trench and stomp on you or blow you and your friends apart.

[Pigeons]

Also this is just what 1 tactical marine would carry. A heavy weapons team would be packing more punch. Rhinos, razor backs, predators, land speeders, bike squadrons, dreadnaughts, terminators, etc. Just imagine youre in a trench shooting at space marines coming at you. Your las bolts would do practically nothing (the further away they are, the less energy your shots have due to atmospheric dispersion. So by the time they are close enough for your las bolts to do much they are already dumping high explosive frag rounds on your head. If you stand up, youre dead, if you take cover, then you are just going to be waiting for a space marine to jump into your trench and stomp on you or blow you and your friends apart.

 

 

 

 

oh yeah, we're thinking along the exact same lines. i was just running this through my head earlier, how when you throw in devastators and dreadnoughts and land raiders and thunderhawk gunships it just becomes a mind-boggingly destructive force.

 

 

 

they truly would be the best of the best.

[Laughingdagger]

I think 50 rounds is too little. Remember that a space marine is a hulk of man and machine, 7-8 feet tall without armor on. So 8-9 feet tall with armor. They are physically capable of carrying hundreds of pounds of equipment, and this is before their augmented strength with armor. So it is feasible that a space marine could carry a hundred pounds or more of ammunition with little effect on his overal performance.

 

A bolter is .75 caliber, or roughly 20mm. It should not be compared to a 20mm chaingun catridge because that would be excessively powerful for the needs of a space marine. A space marine is a shock troop built around deep striking and delivering death at close ranges, probably the longest being a few hundred meters. Consider that most modern combat occurs in urban environments and the future is likely full of cities, factories, and built up areas. A space marine would excel at this. The bolter need not be a full power 20mm anti armor round which is about 20x100mm in size. That is a full power 20mm which has a muzzle velocity around 1000m/sec out of a very long barrel (maybe 3 feet long)

 

A bolter is a man portable weapon that needs to be short and effective for close range combat. It would be ridiculous for a space marine to be kicking in the door of a building and trying to clear the building with a weapon that is 4 feet long. A space marine needs something more suited to his work, so the bolter rifle is more like a modern day M4, just significantly bulkier and heavier to manage firing a much more powerful cartridge. Lets just say for the sake of having a modern example to look at that the bolter round looks like a PAW-20 round, which is 20x42mm. So it is a half-power 20mm cannon round. But when you consider just how powerful that is, it is PLENTY powerful for nearly any threat a space marine would encounter.

 

The bolter rifle itself would probably be 10kilos or more to handle the recoil of such a large round, and the barrel would be very heavy and thick so as to not overheat quickly. It would be extremely difficult for a normal human being to wield a bolter, only the biggest and toughest and well trained imperial guard soldiers could hope to do so.

 

So back to the question of how much ammo a marine would carry. Sorry I get lost sometimes haha. A space marine is not usually depicted as being covered in magazines of bolter ammo, but for combat he would definitely be bringing as much ammo as he could fit on his armor because they always fight outnumbered and never know what horrors they might run into. Generally if you are calling in the space marines, the :blink: has hit the fan. One limitation of magazines is the robustness of the magazine itself and how strong the springs have to be to feed the weight of the ammunition up into the chamber. One problem is the large bolter rounds would be very heavy and require very strong heavy springs to push them up into the chamber, so this would place a limit on the magazine capacity. You would probably have magazine of about 20 rounds in a box configuration (FN FAL style looking) or possibly even coffin style magazines that held 40 rounds, and drum magazines that hold 50 rounds. These would be very heavy and only a space marine could carry them. Few human beings would be able to handle a 10+kg rifle AND then another 5-10kg of ammo hanging off the magazine for very long.

 

So considering each round would be about 4 inches long and an inch wide, then staggered/double stacked inside a magazine. A loaded 20 round magazine would be about 5 inches long, 2 inches wide, and weigh maybe 4-5 kg. Magazines would be a kg by themselves since they need to be very robust to handle such large ammunition. A space marine would probably be able to carry 20 or so 20 round magazines. 20 magazines x 4 = 80kg or 160 or so pounds of ammunition. 400 rounds. Magazines would be a combination of ammunition types, some a mixture of rounds, or some dedicated to either fragmentation or armor penetration.

 

A human being could carry a bolter that was smaller and made for firing bolt pistol rounds which would be even smaller, but to think a human would carry a 20 pound rifle, plus the 10lb magazines...ha... he would only carry a couple of magazines. But it would pack a punch.

 

 

I can see where you're coming from, having thought the same for years. ;)

 

But since it's GW/BL, there are some inconsistencies in the descriptions of the humble bolter. The name of the book escapes me, but a human techpriest picks up a bolter in a command deck, albeit very slowly, as it's heavy, and, using the servo arms attached to his suit, braces himself by grippiing the floor and door frame behind him. He fires once, and is ripped from his moorings and sent 10 feet through the doorway with broken limbs and servos.

 

On the other hand, the bolter fires small rocket propelled rounds(small being a relative term @.@), and so I tend to liken it to a shoulder mounted AT platform of today for comparison. Again, the name escapes me, but in a BL book the bolter is described as being hefty, but not bulky or heavy. Solidly built with the idea of the ripper gun in mind, that if it comes down to it it's a potent close combat armament as well. It then goes on to talk of accuracy and recoil, and says that due to the rocket propelled nature of the round, and not a combustion chamber reaction, and with a weighty frame, the recoil is nearly unnoticed by astartes without armor, and to a strong and youthful human, it's softer than an autogun.

 

The rocket propelled nature of the round leaves a gray area though, does it start after leaving the barrel, much like an AT-4? Or inside the barrel?

 

As for the mass reactive statement about them, remember, a single bolter round costs 25 thrones to manufacture, and a normal guardsmen makes 20 thrones a month. It's 38,000 years from now, micro computer components and uses are already a reality today. Or, it could be mechanical, and you set the required mass to trigger detonation as well as the delay before it happens with those funky nobs on the back (stock?) looking area. But, in False Gods, the Luna Wolves talk of using subsonic rounds against non armored fleshy targets, and it proves true against nurgleite enemies.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Laughingdagger

[Angelwinged]

Well GW is known for inconsistent fluff. Like your example where the tech priest is thrown back from firing the bolter, and then another article saying they have less recoil than an autogun. Obviously something is wrong with their fluff.

 

There was a real life rocket round that was made called the gyrojet or something like that, and it worked...but not really. It took some time for it to build up speed and it was overly complicated to use. So at close ranges it didnt get up to any velocity to do real damage.

 

My guess as to how the light recoil bolter would work.

 

*Round is loaded into the chamber by the bolt moving forward and stripping a round out of the magazine

*Electrical or mechnical means is used to initiate a small charge that quickly accelerates the round out of the barrel

*Secondary ignition occurs immediately after the bolt leaves the barrel and the solid rocket continues acceleration until the round impacts target.

 

Some problems I see this this method of operation. First if there is no recoil, then how does the bolt group cycle? There are many methods of getting a bolt to cycle back and forth (if the bolt is not cycling back and forth, then there is no way for the bolt to be loading the next round into the chamber) So some type of force must be acting upon the bolt to allow it to cycle back and forth to load and unload the chamber. And anytime the bolt is moving back and forth, there is recoil! Ever heard of a recoiless rifle? LOL Well it still has loads of back blast! Just look on youtube for videos of m16 operation, and youll see how a bolt must move back and forth and how it causes recoil.

 

How a bolter would likely work.

 

*Round is loaded into the chamber when bolt moves forward, stripping top round off magazine

*space marine pulls trigger, releasing the hammer, hammer falls and strikes the firing pin, which slams forward and set off the propellant charge of the round

*round is fired down the barrel, increasing velocity until it exits the barrel, propelled by the hot gas combustion behind it

*portion of the gas from this ignition is used to cycle a piston, which cycles the bolt group back

*as the bolt moves rearward under spring tension (to reduce recoil and to force bolt back forward once recoil impulse ends)

*rearward motion of bolt extracts the spent casing (in 40k art, there are shell casings)

*recoil impulse ends as the round leaves the barrel, allowing the recoil springs to sent the bolt back forward, repeating the process and loading the next round out of the magazine

 

So GW is unclear and inconsistent about the fluff. But The gun has to CYCLE rounds in and out of the chamber and as the cycling of the bolt occurs, then recoil will occur. I prefer to think of a bolter as a space marines weapon...larger, more violent, more powerful. Like an assault grenade launcher. I am open to ideas, but youve got to explain how it would cycle ammo in and out without any recoil.

[Eerie]

What 's your comment about this: In Bolt Pistols (and 1st Edition boltguns as well) the magazine's position is so far forward that the tip of the bullet would poke out of the barrel if the weapon cycles as real weapons do.

[Angelwinged]

Thats an obvious mistake on the part of the GW boys. If you look at the old 2nd edition wargear books, many weapons have impossible designs. They simply could not work or function in any way! LOL But they looked cool to me when I was a teenager, I didnt know better. Now I look at the odd designs and think "isnt that cute...an artist with no firearms knowledge."

 

I suppose theres always magic, that can explain anything.

[Eerie]

Yes, I guessed so. Haha, maybe the Mechanicum guys figured a way to fire the round directly from the magazine without needing to push into a chamber first.

 

Same goes with me, as a former tanker I can't help and and look at the Leman Russ thinking that Imperial tank commanders obviously have no legs as they are poking out of the turret right where the gun breech should be.

[WeaponAdept]

Yes, I guessed so. Haha, maybe the Mechanicum guys figured a way to fire the round directly from the magazine without needing to push into a chamber first.

 

Same goes with me, as a former tanker I can't help and and look at the Leman Russ thinking that Imperial tank commanders obviously have no legs as they are poking out of the turret right where the gun breech should be.

 

You 'can' fire rounds outside of a chamber as long as 1.The cartridge is specially designed for the purpose 2.The nose of the projectile is seated in the lead of the rifling.

 

Bolter cartriges supposedly deliver a 'kicker' charge to push the round clear of the weapon ond begin its flight before the 'rocket' charge takes over. Two problems with that. 1. The kicker charge on that caliber would be about the same as a regular samll caliber munition 2. The 'jerk' of the secondary charge igniting would throw the projectile off course, unless it was a slow burning rocket, but then it would be defunct and you may as well use a regular charge or ignite the rocket in the chamber.

 

The chamberless weapon would be more feasable with a caseless self propelled munition. Problem is, the fluff-consistancy is so..... gloopy, when it comes to Bolter technology GW simply say that the Mechanicum, galaxywide, has produced "countless" marks and types of bolter, some of which stretch the boundries of the term 'Bolter'

 

On my lunch break so once again I am robbed of time to elaborate. I'll put my own thread up and make a direct connection to this on I think.

 

Good to know I'm not the only GunGeek on the B&C :(

[A D-B]

I am in love with this thread.

[The Normish]

While not professed in the ways of the gun, shouldn't we just settle on the Adeptus Mechanicum's official line, "it's magic"?

Gosh, reading through all this stuff makes me want to learn about guns. Up to now, I've been operating on a "if it shoots bullets, it works" sort of line.

[Captain Mike]

I've always though the bolt pistol design didn't seem to work, simply because there wouldn't be enough length to stabilise the bolt before it left the barrel.

 

Here's a thought though. If two standard marines had a shoot out, no cover, how long would it take for one to kill the other? By what you are saying, it'd be like two normal people shooting each other with BB guns. Until, of course, you take into account different rounds, enhanced bodies...

 

My bet is on quite a while.

[Angelwinged]

True, as long as the round could have just a little bit of the barrel to sit in, you could fire it. BUT it would have practically zero accuracy because no spin would be imparted on such a large round that had barely anytime to travel down a rifled barrel and achieve some stabilization. The large and heavier the bullet, the faster twist (the distance it takes for the rifling to achieve a full turn inside the barrel) required to stabilize the bullet.

 

For example in a 5.56mm you need a 1 in 7 inch twist to stabilize a 77gr mk.262 long range bullet. But you only need a 1 in 12 twist to stabilize a 55gr bullet.

 

So to stabilize a big ass bolter round you would need a decent length barrel and a fassst twist. Unless the bolt sprang little wings when it exited the barrel and the rocket kicked on and then it stabilized itself outside the barrel.

 

On another note, I was thinking of what a lasgun hit would do to ceramite armor. It would probably just turn a little circular area on the armor (size of circle depending on distance from target) into red hot ceramite. Maybe even white hot, but it would not penetrate it. You would have to melt the ceramite, but since this stuff is designed to eat bullets at high velocity, I am guessing that it could handle many types of high energy hits. So if you dumped a lasgun on full auto into a space marine, there would be a bunch of little glowing circles on his armor where the lasbolts impacted and heated it up. But it would cool off after a few minutes and the marine would be unharmed.

[WeaponAdept]

True, as long as the round could have just a little bit of the barrel to sit in, you could fire it. BUT it would have practically zero accuracy because no spin would be imparted on such a large round that had barely anytime to travel down a rifled barrel and achieve some stabilization.

 

If you have more than one exhaust vent on the base of the round (assuming a self propelled shell) and you angle the jets about 15 degrees or more you would have your gyroscopic stability.

 

Assuming a conventional shell, you can fin stabilize it like these: Shotgun shell

 

Plus pistols are for extreme CQB only. 21st century military pistols are only accurate up to an average of 30m. The rifling depth and rotation in pistol barrels is light compared to other weapon types. Some are listed up to 50m but at 50m you should still have your rifle. Unless of course you have drawn your POWER SWORD and charged those damned Taliban heretics.....

[Angelwinged]

Another funny thing to consider is that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for a space marine to properly shoulder or aim his rifle with the iron sights. Bolters dont have a stock to shoulder them, which would make it pretty difficult to use iron sights. So we can assume space marines use some type of aiming laser that they can easily pick up through their helmet's augmented vision.

 

In modern warfare when soldiers use their night vision goggles it becomes impossible to shoulder the rifle and aim it because your goggles are sticking out too far (trust me, Ive tried and its impossible) and that is why soldiers use PEQ laser units to shoot infrared lasers out to aim with, which are viewable only with night vision observation devices.