Bolters and Power Armor

[Angelwinged]

I've always though the bolt pistol design didn't seem to work, simply because there wouldn't be enough length to stabilise the bolt before it left the barrel.

 

Here's a thought though. If two standard marines had a shoot out, no cover, how long would it take for one to kill the other? By what you are saying, it'd be like two normal people shooting each other with BB guns. Until, of course, you take into account different rounds, enhanced bodies...

 

My bet is on quite a while.

 

 

If they used armor piercing rounds they could aim for the head and score a kill as soon as they got a headshot. Or they could whittled their opponent down with some thigh shots (where armor seems to be thinner) and cause the opponent to slow down, fall down, or lose signinficant amounts of blood from damaging the femoral artery, but the head and throat would be the best bet for knocking out a space marine.

 

Of course even this would be difficult since a marine could stand with his shoulder to the target, using his massive shoulder armor to absorb the impacts and offer more head protection. I guess this is why space marines carry close combat weapons. They can shoot while advancing, potentially scoring a kill with their bolter, or if they get close enough they can pull out a power weapon or some type of close combat weapon and drive it through the opponents joints/neck/under arm.

[Captain Mike]

Permit me to be pinickity, but if all these exploding bullets and energy weapons can't get through a marine's armour, what real use would a marine combat blade be? I understand power weapons, but not all Marines have them.

 

Stop me if I'm going off topic, this has just got me thinking a lot.

[Angelwinged]

I think the advantage in close combat one marine would have against another is that they would be in arms reach of the target so it would be much easier to shove a bolter/bolt pistol in their face and blow their head off, or slam a foot long adamantium razor sharp blade under their arm and into their chest. GW always has stories of marines fighting chaos in hand to hand melee stuff and epic protracted battles ensue, but any real world highly trained killer is going to take care of business, or die, within seconds.

 

It may seem like striking in a few poorly protected ares like the groin joints, armpit, or throat, would be very difficult, but space marines would train these skills thousands upon thousands of times. I will give you an example of how a space marine could kill another marine in two seconds of close combat.

 

Space marines come within striking distance of one another. One attempts to fire bolt pistol at the others face. The other marine ducks and stabs into the armpit of the arm holding the bolt pistol. The blade pierces the weak armpit section and slices through a heart and two lungs, and causes severe nerve damage. This causes and automatic and involuntary reaction of the marines body to tense up around the wound, somewhat curving the body to the side of the hit, head and shoulders moving towards the wound. The space marine who stabbed him knows, from years and years of training, a successful strike to the armpit will cause such a reaction, and is already striking the now exposed opposite side of the throat, severing the arteries, nerves, and windpipe. The target collapses involuntarily and loses consciousness in ten seconds from massive drop in blood pressure and oxygen deprivation in the brain. Death occurs in a few minutes.

 

Two perfectly rehearsed and executed strikes to the weak points would take a marine out in a matter of seconds. Not by really defeating the ceramite armor, but getting around it and exploting its few weak points. A blade is very, very dangerous, in the right hands. Just imagine how hard a super human, power armor strength augment space marine could drive an adamantium type blade into an opponent? The piercing power would be incredible.

[tiberium40k]

This thread is pure awesome. :D

 

So considering each round would be about 4 inches long and an inch wide, then staggered/double stacked inside a magazine. A loaded 20 round magazine would be about 5 inches long, 2 inches wide, and weigh maybe 4-5 kg. Magazines would be a kg by themselves since they need to be very robust to handle such large ammunition. A space marine would probably be able to carry 20 or so 20 round magazines. 20 magazines x 4 = 80kg or 160 or so pounds of ammunition. 400 rounds. Magazines would be a combination of ammunition types, some a mixture of rounds, or some dedicated to either fragmentation or armor penetration.

 

The 4ed SM Codex states the sickle bolter magazine contains 30 rounds, which is the number the new Space Marine game took aswell. If the Marine would still carry 20 magazines, that would mean 600 rounds are available, and if he already has one magazine in the bolter, that means the Marine could have 630 rounds, which is AFAIK quite a lot for a regular deployment.

[Angelwinged]

This thread is pure awesome. :yes:

 

So considering each round would be about 4 inches long and an inch wide, then staggered/double stacked inside a magazine. A loaded 20 round magazine would be about 5 inches long, 2 inches wide, and weigh maybe 4-5 kg. Magazines would be a kg by themselves since they need to be very robust to handle such large ammunition. A space marine would probably be able to carry 20 or so 20 round magazines. 20 magazines x 4 = 80kg or 160 or so pounds of ammunition. 400 rounds. Magazines would be a combination of ammunition types, some a mixture of rounds, or some dedicated to either fragmentation or armor penetration.

 

The 4ed SM Codex states the sickle bolter magazine contains 30 rounds, which is the number the new Space Marine game took aswell. If the Marine would still carry 20 magazines, that would mean 600 rounds are available, and if he already has one magazine in the bolter, that means the Marine could have 630 rounds, which is AFAIK quite a lot for a regular deployment.

 

 

I think if this were real, space marines would have spare magazines lining their entire waist, mounted to their torso in many places, and on the outside of their hips and thighs, maybe even on their shoulder pads. They could probably carry 600 rounds or so if they thought they would need that many. But they are shock troops who rely on speed and surprise and violence. They probably would rarely need to carry so many rounds. It would be possible, but magazines would be hanging off them like christmas tree decorations. They could probably even use bolter conversions that swap out recievers to turn the guns from magazine fed, to belt fed weapons and carry a large pack of ammunition with 1000 rounds or something wild, or smaller 100 round belts mounted under the gun like a SAW. It would be pretty cool if you could equip marines in game with such a weapon. You could move and shoot with it, but get a few sustained fire dice.

[Watcher in the Dark]

Permit me to be pinickity, but if all these exploding bullets and energy weapons can't get through a marine's armour, what real use would a marine combat blade be? I understand power weapons, but not all Marines have them.

 

Stop me if I'm going off topic, this has just got me thinking a lot.

Combat blades, IIRC, are monomolecular at the cutting edge. In sci-fi jargon, it simply means that they are one molecule thick at the cutting edge and point, allowing for the shearing of covalent bonds (strongest molecular bonds between atoms) in materials. Now, as this is the future and we can't know what space marine armor looks like, on a molecular level, we can probably assume that PA is strong enough or bonded in a way that would stop even monomolecular blades from penetrating full plates. I would think the same is true with most other armors in the 40k universe, to greater or lesser degrees.

 

If employed against other marines, the combat blade would only be of any use to attack the weaker joints of a marine's armor where there are not full plates, but flexible material that allows for the suit to bend. Think, neck, behind the knee, the inner part of the elbow, the armpit, etc.

 

The other thing to remember is that for ANY fighting force, hand blades and knives would be the LAST line of defense. For marines, I doubt they see much of any combat use as the marines are usually prepared for the task at hand.

 

It's worth noting that knives and blades work differently then do projectiles. As an example, modern armor like kevlar can stop bullets (smaller calibre anyway), but when a knife is applied to it, the material shreds quite easily.

[Darkchild130]

Being an infantryman of 11 years and Small arms subject matter expert, I mut confess this thread is fragging awesome!

 

In my fanfiction my marines are always carrying loads of mags, and take practically no damage from human forces for exactly the reasons stated in this thread.

 

Darkchild

[phosis21]

The 4ed SM Codex states the sickle bolter magazine contains 30 rounds, which is the number the new Space Marine game took aswell. If the Marine would still carry 20 magazines, that would mean 600 rounds are available, and if he already has one magazine in the bolter, that means the Marine could have 630 rounds, which is AFAIK quite a lot for a regular deployment.

 

 

As an Intel Analyst in the US Army, I don't know if 600 is too much. Consider, that I'm 100% a support trooper, I'm in AFG right now and on the rare occasion that I were to go outside the wire, I bring 210 MINIMUM with me, on top of my M4 and armor system. (7 mag, "combat load")

 

Many of my intel colleagues bring 8-10 mags (so they can weigh even more when they sit and sweat in the back of an MRAP).

 

My Infantry buddies though? They bring 7 in their armor, one in the mag well, one duck-taped upside down to the mag IN the mag-well (so they can swap in out in like 1 second), on in a pocket on the butt-stock, several in strap on holders on their thighs and I've heard of a few attaching some to their DAPs (shoulder armor) as well. This represents upwards of 15 magazines, plus body armor, camelback (water thing), maps, a knife (or like...6) and snacks (of which they carry MANY).

 

On a normal human. In a low intensity conflict (I mean, I have time peruse forums, lol).

 

Now, imagine a superhuman killing machine, as described adeptly by AngelWinged. Also, consider they've got re-supplies in the Rhinos and what not too.

 

Anyway, just some commentary on just how many bullets we carry now!

 

P.S. Angel, this thread is incredible!

[Darkchild130]

Yeah on ops I carry upwards of 14 mags on me (6 on chest, 2 on thigh, as many as possible in a grab bag) and thats without taking into account pistol mags, grenades and all the other gubbins a grunt needs.

 

considering the bulk of a boltgun magazine, I would assume a space marine to have single stacked pouches, meaning he would carry (imo) 4 on his chest, another 3 on his thigh (other thigh reserved for bolt pistol) and another 2-4 on his belt gear, bearing in mind he has to leave space for other equipment.

 

So i feel 10-12 magazines is about right for a tactical marine (though thats a realistic load, GW aren't exactly concerned with realism)

 

Darkchild

[phosis21]

Yeah on ops I carry upwards of 14 mags on me (6 on chest, 2 on thigh, as many as possible in a grab bag) and thats without taking into account pistol mags, grenades and all the other gubbins a grunt needs.

 

considering the bulk of a boltgun magazine, I would assume a space marine to have single stacked pouches, meaning he would carry (imo) 4 on his chest, another 3 on his thigh (other thigh reserved for bolt pistol) and another 2-4 on his belt gear, bearing in mind he has to leave space for other equipment.

 

So i feel 10-12 magazines is about right for a tactical marine (though thats a realistic load, GW aren't exactly concerned with realism)

 

Darkchild

 

Pretty much feel like all of this is solid, and well reasoned.

 

P.S. - reading your Null Blades thing right now. While I've decided "Knights in Space is FTW", I have to say I like what you've done, specially dig the Mass Effect stripe on the side of the armor, and the Bolter with all kinds of cool mods on it (I <3 my foregrip) lol

[NightrawenII]

Permit me to be pinickity, but if all these exploding bullets and energy weapons can't get through a marine's armour, what real use would a marine combat blade be? I understand power weapons, but not all Marines have them.

Logical answer: Marines don't fight only Space Marines...

 

And what can confirm anyone, who practises outdoormanship (or lives in the country :unsure: ), knife of any kind has several other uses than poking angry bear into eye.

 

I think if this were real, space marines would have spare magazines lining their entire waist, mounted to their torso in many places, and on the outside of their hips and thighs, maybe even on their shoulder pads. They could probably carry 600 rounds or so if they thought they would need that many. But they are shock troops who rely on speed and surprise and violence. They probably would rarely need to carry so many rounds. It would be possible, but magazines would be hanging off them like christmas tree decorations. They could probably even use bolter conversions that swap out recievers to turn the guns from magazine fed, to belt fed weapons and carry a large pack of ammunition with 1000 rounds or something wild, or smaller 100 round belts mounted under the gun like a SAW. It would be pretty cool if you could equip marines in game with such a weapon. You could move and shoot with it, but get a few sustained fire dice.

::The bolded part::

 

The problem with the bolter rounds is... well, they are explosive. So having them on the waist or the shoulder pads (ie. In the areas with the most probable impact of enemy bullet.) is not exactly smart idea.

Edited September 6, 2011 by NightrawenII

[Angelwinged]

A bolter round exploding outside the power armor would have almost no effect on the space marine inside the power armor. It wouldnt even come close to the power of a frag grenade going off because the pressure would have no chance to build up like in a real grenade, and the shrapnel would be pretty low velocity. Unless the explosive is contained and achieves the very high pressures needed to send the shrapnel out at high velocity, nothing really happens. To give an example, my friend works as a range master as they have to go through X amount of rounds at the range, and sometimes that amount is just incredible. He explained they used to just dump ammo into a 55 gallon drum and burn it. It just goes pop pop pop as the bullet separates from the case. It isnt going to achieve any speed unless it is inside a chamber of a gun where the pressure can build up all the way.

 

Also if anyone would like to check out a short story I wrote in the short story section called No Name Tyranid Story, it portrays some different 40k weapons in a manner I thought would be consistent with the ballistic info in this article. I am glad everyone likes this thread, we can continue to add to it, just ask about different weapons and equipment and I will give you some info.

[WeaponAdept]

Another funny thing to consider is that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for a space marine to properly shoulder or aim his rifle with the iron sights. Bolters dont have a stock to shoulder them, which would make it pretty difficult to use iron sights. So we can assume space marines use some type of aiming laser that they can easily pick up through their helmet's augmented vision.

 

In modern warfare when soldiers use their night vision goggles it becomes impossible to shoulder the rifle and aim it because your goggles are sticking out too far (trust me, Ive tried and its impossible) and that is why soldiers use PEQ laser units to shoot infrared lasers out to aim with, which are viewable only with night vision observation devices.

 

My HMNVS worked fine with my susat in Iraq, because it was designed to be.

 

Marines are said in certain prose to have a reticle of some sort within their vision linked directly to their weapon. The only reason I can see for a marine aiming from the shoulder is for stability at longer ranges. NB Scout sniper rifles have stocks.

 

PS: By Modern Warfare I REALLY hope you arn't referring to a certain video game.

[Angelwinged]

Never played the game, but encountered plenty of MW morons on every gun video on youtube spouting ignorance. :) I used to have a set of NVGs so I knew the limitations. I think PVS14s are the way to go, you can helmet or rifle mount them and you keep 1 eye available for use when ambient light is too much for the night vision. I have also got a 4x power night scope for hunting, its crystal clear for 200-300 yards. Works like a charm.

[thade]

This thead - especially the OP - get's Thade's Seal of Approval.

 

EDIT: I have a question: do boltguns have recoil? :huh:

Edited September 6, 2011 by thade

[Angelwinged]

double post Edited September 6, 2011 by Angelwinged

[Angelwinged]

In order for ammunition to be inserted from the magazine and into the chamber again and again, an "action" must be moving back and forth to do so. In a modern pistol the slide moves back and forth, in a rifle it is the bolt carrier group that moves back and forth. The larger the round, the larger the bolt group or slide. So there is absolutely a large amount of recoil being generated to insert and extract 75 caliber bolter rounds.

 

There is a difference between recoil, and felt recoil. Felt recoil is the recoil felt by the shooter. So if the Bolter uses a muzzle break (to redirect hot gases from the firing of the bolt) to help mitigate recoil, or special recoil springs and dampening systems, its possible recoil feels rather light (relatively speaking). Just look at a Barrett M82 sniper rifle. It has large recoil springs and a huge muzzle break on the end of the barrel, altogether this cuts the felt recoil down about 50% or so. Not to mention it weighs 30lbs, so that further absorbs more recoil. A gun which would otherwise be totally punishing becomes manageable. A bolter is probably the same way, big ass heavy muzzle break on the front, large recoil springs that take the snap out of the recoil when the bolt group cycles, and the weight of the bolter itself.

[thade]

Any chance you'd consider writing an article consolidating all of your theories on boltguns and any other 40k weapons you might like to? :huh: I think it would be a huge benefit to the community, especially insofar as writing fan fiction and understanding their marines.

[Angelwinged]

When I can write it out in detail I will put it all in a new thread I guess. It would be fun to do though and I think it would result in some more consistent fan fiction, show space marines to be the uber badasses we all know they must be to survive in the 40k universe, and maybe just maybe some GW authors can look at it and stop making silly technical errors lol

[Darkchild130]

In a shameless bit of self promotion, my fanfiction and IA chapter operate pretty much within the rules of what has been discussed in this thread, for anyone who wants a bit of a reallist approach to Space Marines :P

 

@Phosis: thanks!

 

Darkchild

Edited September 6, 2011 by Darkchild130

[Angelwinged]

In a shameless bit of self promotion, my fanfiction and IA chapter operate pretty much within the rules of what has been discussed in this thread, for anyone who wants a bit of a reallist approach to Space Marines :P

 

@Phosis: thanks!

 

Darkchild

 

Haha no worries.

[Firenze]

For feeding the bolt into the mag without recoil, has anyone thought about maybe the bolt and chamber are controlled via cogitator? Maybe the processor in the weapon detects the bolt firing, Opening the firing chamber, mechanically ejecting the cartridge and then pushing, via something in the magazine, the next bolt into position? That is how I thought it could work. Also, for HEAP rounds, it would use a shaped charge right? To blast into power armour or heavier.

 

And also for the bolt being rocket powered and to impart a spin, why not use an advanced version of the gyrojet concept?

[Darkchild130]

I used to think that HESH rounds would be effective against Space Marines, but without knowing how Fibre Bundles act as a spall liner i couldn't be sure nowdays.

 

Darkchild

[Angelwinged]

For feeding the bolt into the mag without recoil, has anyone thought about maybe the bolt and chamber are controlled via cogitator? Maybe the processor in the weapon detects the bolt firing, Opening the firing chamber, mechanically ejecting the cartridge and then pushing, via something in the magazine, the next bolt into position? That is how I thought it could work. Also, for HEAP rounds, it would use a shaped charge right? To blast into power armour or heavier.

 

And also for the bolt being rocket powered and to impart a spin, why not use an advanced version of the gyrojet concept?

 

I think your theory is sound. Bolters are quite large as far as their recievers go. If you look at the reciever of a modern rifle, its much much shorter and thinner. A bolter is quite bulky in comparison and could have electronics and mechanisms for extracting and loading from the magazine, built into the reciever. The magazine itself would not be able to do that though, there is no room for such mechanisms and would make the magazine overly complex for what a magazine is, just something to hold ammo.

 

Your explanation would be a good way to explain how a bolter remains very light on recoil. Another thing people dont often consider is that weapons are built according to the technology and needs of the users, and materials on hand. So some may have more advanced operation methods that lighten recoil, and others may be super simple and have heavier recoil. The more complex something is the more prone to failure it is. Electronics break, they require advanced methods to construct. Consider an AK47, very simple, not very high quality, not very accurate, but for those very reasons it is very reliable. It has loose tolerances, simple design, and just goes bang every time, precisely why it is a favorite close range assault rifle...power, reliability, period.

[Consul of Scorpions]

I've always though the bolt pistol design didn't seem to work, simply because there wouldn't be enough length to stabilise the bolt before it left the barrel.

 

Here's a thought though. If two standard marines had a shoot out, no cover, how long would it take for one to kill the other? By what you are saying, it'd be like two normal people shooting each other with BB guns. Until, of course, you take into account different rounds, enhanced bodies...

 

My bet is on quite a while.

Whomever hits the joints faster wins.