Master Of Malfeasance X Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 One of the sad truisms of 40k is that, as the fluff has grown up and the sci-fi has gone from really, really soft to somewhat firm, the BL authors have been given the herculean task of taking crappy, old beef jerky fluff and turning it into badass, new filet mignon fluff. The kernel of my question is this: In the Tales of Heresy store 'After De'shea' (sp?), Khârn has to calm down Angron after the Emperor teleported the primarch away from everyone he knew and loved on the eve of the battle that was to define their lives and set the entire world free forever. How angry would you be, as a Warhound (what the World Eaters were called before they were the World Eaters) to have to take orders from the guy who killed your captain for fun, or out of petulance, or really for any reason? So when he goes to see Angron, you can almost taste Khârn's disappointment. Where even Mortarion is at least fairly predictable to his soldiers, Angron is indiscriminately killing his own troops. Khârn's disappointment even trumps the normally overwhelming love a marine feels when in the presence of his primarch. It's a wonder they didn't space him and ask the Emperor for another. Seriously? Khârn: What's that sound? The Emperor: that's Angron, your primarch killing an aggregate 800 years of combat experience as he unceremoniously disembowels the captains of the first four companies. Khârn: What? Did they attack him? The Emperor: Goodness, no, they were swearing fealty to him. Khârn: Why would you do this? The Emperor: Well, I couldn't risk him getting hurt in the final conflict against his oppressive, tyrannical overlords, so I teleported him away. Don't worry, he'll be fine. I'm giving him a fleet, an army, and a legion of genetically engineered killing machines. He'll get over it. Khârn: No, asshat, why would you do this to us? The Emperor: Relax. I have this planned out to a T. What could go wrong? Now go calm him down before he leaves the legion completely leaderless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 The reason to kill matters. Angron was killing his Captains because he had no grasp of who they are and his grief and shame were immense not to mention his brain screw. Having the same martial pride of their sire, World Eaters can sympathize and even respect that. Besides considering he convinced entire legion to get lobotomized, i doubt they even cared. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2866555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 And to be fair regardless of how many marines he's killing at the end of the day he is one of the sons of the Emperor and personally speaking I think the Emperor would be more interested in rehabilitating his son than the loss of a few captains. It does make for an interesting background material point though because those officers that were lost may have been able to better act as consul to Angron had they not been slain in his rage and it could well have changed the course of history. I always feel sorry for Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2866724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 You'd think the War Hounds would be more angry at the BIG E for such a dick move then at Angron who just wanted to die with his warriors and didn't know what the heck was going on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Having read the story, my interpretation was that Khârn's "genetic love" for his Primarch surpassed everything else, be it the disappointment of being in the only Legion stuck with a Primarch who kills his own or the fear Angron keeps instilling in him by means of backhand slaps, bodyslams, etc., right until the very last. I see your point, mate, but the fact is that, right from the start, disliking his Primarch is a very hard thing to do for a Space Marine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don the Oiler Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 While a little excessive, i kind of understand Angron's, errr... anger. For example, for Vulkan the Emperor went through that whole competition and bonding thing, while with Angron he was more like "I really can't be bothered with this, just beam him up, he'll cope with it." Would it really have been that much of an effort to just HELP Angron with his rebellion, save his pals and THEN ask him to lead the Warhounds? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Would it really have been that much of an effort to just HELP Angron with his rebellion, save his pals and THEN ask him to lead the Warhounds? That's one of the things which must be explained if a sensible Angron story will be told because it makes no sense as it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Khârn: What's that sound? The Emperor: that's Angron, your primarch killing an aggregate 800 years of combat experience as he unceremoniously disembowels the captains of the first four companies. Khârn: What? Did they attack him? The Emperor: Goodness, no, they were swearing fealty to him. Khârn: Why would you do this? The Emperor: Well, I couldn't risk him getting hurt in the final conflict against his oppressive, tyrannical overlords, so I teleported him away. Don't worry, he'll be fine. I'm giving him a fleet, an army, and a legion of genetically engineered killing machines. He'll get over it. Khârn: No, asshat, why would you do this to us? The Emperor: ...... Khârn: ..... The Emperor: Least I'm not planning to permenantly strap him into throne to act like a interdimensional Lighthouse.... Khârn: What? The Emperor: Nothing, shut up and look pretty! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 My take on it is its just bad writing. Not really thought out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I've never liked the fact that angron is the only primarch who did not get the whole father son bonding thing that the others did. The emperoer should have let the legion lose to save there primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2867681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_POINTED_STICK Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It actually wouldn't be that hard to come up with a good reason. What if the people Angron was going to fight against were a powerful human Empire the Emperor was trying to win over diplomatically. he abducts his man, spirits him out, then signs an alliance with the baddies. Angron of course doesn't know what's going on the Emperor isn't going to be like "Sorry sport, you picked the wrong side in the war. I'm the Pater Familias of Mankind and as such you're my son and you'll do as I say damn it." That makes sense actually. It's a lot easier to make peace with a large human force than to kill them until they give. Not much sense in killing a few billion tax payers for Angron when he can (in theory) easily have both by kidnapping Angron and playing dumb as to why. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It actually wouldn't be that hard to come up with a good reason. What if the people Angron was going to fight against were a powerful human Empire the Emperor was trying to win over diplomatically. he abducts his man, spirits him out, then signs an alliance with the baddies. Angron of course doesn't know what's going on the Emperor isn't going to be like "Sorry sport, you picked the wrong side in the war. I'm the Pater Familias of Mankind and as such you're my son and you'll do as I say damn it." That makes sense actually. It's a lot easier to make peace with a large human force than to kill them until they give. Not much sense in killing a few billion tax payers for Angron when he can (in theory) easily have both by kidnapping Angron and playing dumb as to why. decent reasoning, but i cant imagine the emperor expecting a positive working relationship after taking the side of slavers against his own son. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrion Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I'm thinking those who said bad writing might be on to something here. From an author's perspective, Angron is hardly an appealing subject. He is just shy of mindless and thus has almost no depth. Honestly I figure the Emperor should have annihilated Angron and his followers and just let the World Eaters exist sans a Primarch. A mindless killing machine has its uses sure, but the Primarchs were to be the Emperors ultimate weapons. Leaders and strategists without peer, fighters who could never be bested. Angron hardly fits that description. Easier to just toss in a paragraph, maybe a chapter at most in some random book about how the Emperor found him, decided he was way too busy to deal with this crap, and just abducts him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Angron's landing planet isn't even named, nor is the society there referenced as part of some empire. It could be, of course, but right now it just seems like a pretty neglectible world. In fact, there's nothing about the Empy conquering that planet. And he was on a conquering mood, so I'd say it was a wothless dustball, maybe one used solely for gladiatorial tournaments and gambling - let's hope there isn't a prodigy child racing there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The Emperor did the sensible thing regarding Angron's planet. Help a bunch of rage-crazy gladiators with their dying battle...or save the Primarch, get the world loyal to the Imperium quick and easy, force them to stop their bloody arenas and lobotomy science (which the Big E did), and move on to the bigger task of saving humanity and forging an empire. Remember, the Emperor teleported Angron on board AFTER the worthless psycho attacked and killed one of his custodes, just for BEING there. Big E: Greetings my lost son, I have come to introduce you to your destiny and take you to the stars. Ok...that auto gene recognition should be kicking in any minute now... Angron: *GaAWWRROOOOOO* Custodes: ARK I AM DEAD! Big E: Yknow what...heck with this. Tag him and bag him. Frankly, I like Kyrion's idea with dealing with Angron. But as we see the Emperor had great faith in his creations/lieutenants/sons. He gave each the freedom to shape their Legion as they saw fit so long as they did not violate the key tenets of the Imperium. Even when they deviated rather far, as with Lorgar, the Emperor figured they would eventually come around. Sadly, he was wrong in many cases. As for being a Warhound, of course you would be disappointed. You wanted a gene-father and leader, a great warrior and genius who grew to rule their home planet and lead it to greatness. Horus, Magnus, Lorgar, Guilliman, Corax, heck even the Lion and Curze managed such things. Instead you get this brain damaged brute who attacks those who offer no resistance and seek to talk to him...because he is sulking. Yes. Sulking. It is a homicidal sulk but there is really no other word for it. They wanted Warrior McGreat Stabby. They got Twitchy McSociopath. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Instead you get this brain damaged brute who attacks those who offer no resistance and seek to talk to him...because he is sulking. Yes. Sulking. It is a homicidal sulk but there is really no other word for it. Actually there is. Major psychological breakdown, amplified by cybernetic stuff. Often occurs when something which you base your life on is taken away. Let me see what would happen to any Primarch if their legion was taken away or destroyed. Sure they would not act like Angron but something would snap (e.g. Sanguinius or Lorgar). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Instead you get this brain damaged brute who attacks those who offer no resistance and seek to talk to him...because he is sulking. Yes. Sulking. It is a homicidal sulk but there is really no other word for it. Actually there is. Major psychological breakdown, amplified by cybernetic stuff. Often occurs when something which you base your life on is taken away. Let me see what would happen to any Primarch if their legion was taken away or destroyed. Sure they would not act like Angron but something would snap (e.g. Sanguinius or Lorgar). He sits in his room and kills anyone who walks in even as they sit there and offer no resistance. Homicidal sulking. As for the "world taken away" bit, he had already accepted he was going to die. The army was cornered and about to be destroyed. You would think that would have made such transitions easier. For a guy "consigned to his death" he sure flips out easy. And considering it just took some "talking and beating time" with Khârn to get him to stop frekaing out, I question how distraught he really was, beyond his usual state of nutzo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 So the transition from "honorable death with his comrades" to "watching them die helplessly and violating the honor pact due to being spirited away" should be easy ? I think not. (Edited due to edit). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Wow, i expected counter arguments to mines yet all i get is childish dissing. Please re read then good sir. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Wow reading all about how the Emperor should have put down Angron like he was a rabid dog (which isn't really off) because he was a mind wipped gladiator is really interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Of Malfeasance X Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 I'm willing to chalk it up to bad writing. On the surface, it almost looks as though the Emperor wrote off the World Eaters the moment he found out someone had hacked out part of Angron's brain. No other primarch had suffered any such injury, and no other primarch had failed to rise to lead the people of his planet (that we know of; nothing has been written about Ferrus Manus' time on... whatever planet he's from that no one cares about, ditto that for Perturabo), but it is safe to say that he is, by far, the most damaged primarch, even going so far as to tell the Emperor he wanted nothing to do with the legions. I was moved more by the War Hounds description in the first few paragraphs I read in Tales of Heresy, than any description of the World Eaters since then. I found myself reeling from the tragedy of a loyal legion's only chance at success sacrificed for the sake of expedience (assuming I give the authors the benefit of the doubt) I wonder what sort of legion the War Hounds would have made had the Emperor granted Angron's request. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2868885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I wonder what sort of legion the War Hounds would have made had the Emperor granted Angron's request. Quite possibly Heresy bait waiting to happen: "The Emperor destroyed our Primarch! Alone amongst the Legions, we have no liege! We reject the name of War Hounds, to be unleashed at the Emperor's whim! Now and forever, we are the Orphaned Legion! Death the False Emperor!" They then proceed to cut themselves with chainaxes. Alternatively, if reared correctly they could be "adopted" by the Emperor as his own Hounds, his fist to be unleashed when necessary. Though I must admit I see that was unlikely. Side note: I thought with Tales of De'Shea they removed Angron even asking the Emperor to save his troops, since he went all axe-crazy on a Custodes almost right out of the gate? I shall re-read it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2869086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I wonder what sort of legion the War Hounds would have made had the Emperor granted Angron's request. Quite possibly Heresy bait waiting to happen: "The Emperor destroyed our Primarch! Alone amongst the Legions, we have no liege! We reject the name of War Hounds, to be unleashed at the Emperor's whim! Now and forever, we are the Orphaned Legion! Death the False Emperor!" They then proceed to cut themselves with chainaxes. Alternatively, if reared correctly they could be "adopted" by the Emperor as his own Hounds, his fist to be unleashed when necessary. Though I must admit I see that was unlikely. Side note: I thought with Tales of De'Shea they removed Angron even asking the Emperor to save his troops, since he went all axe-crazy on a Custodes almost right out of the gate? I shall re-read it. I like this idea, I envisage them to be a force akin to heresy era space wolves, with less beards and more chainaxe (which everyone knows is the best weapon ever conceived :)) Darkchild Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2869402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Side note: I thought with Tales of De'Shea they removed Angron even asking the Emperor to save his troops, since he went all axe-crazy on a Custodes almost right out of the gate? I shall re-read it. Yup that he did, as soon as he realised what has happened to he tore one apart with his bare hands. I enjoyed After Desh'Ea, when reading it I actually felt sympathetic to Angron when he compares the Emperor to the people on his world who wanted him to bleed and die in the arena. It actually gave me hope that when a full fledge World Eater novel does come out they won't be "Raaagghhhh Smash!!" as people seem to think they all are. One way I would flesh out the Emperor not saving the Gladiators is that the world had surrendered to compliance, and that the Gladiator rebellion threatened that compliance, he choose the Imperium over his son, we all know the Emperor is bad father. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2869520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I've never liked the fact that angron is the only primarch who did not get the whole father son bonding thing that the others did. The emperoer should have let the legion lose to save there primarch.Konrad Curze called from beyond the grave, he would like the childhood and father that he never had - back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/#findComment-2869552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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