Ubermensch Commander Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 See that is the part that I do not understand. The Emperor did not make Angron lose. Angron had already LOST. His army had dug their own graves for pity's sake. What is with this whole "Curse you Emperor! My friends are dead!" rage coming from? I think you're missing the point a little. From reading After De'shea I understood that Angrons rage at daddy stemmed from not being allowed to die with his comrades. As a gladiatorial slave from day one, these people were his only family, his only friends, all linked very closely by their martial skills, hatred for their masters and the hope that they could be free from tyranny. Those sort of conditions would form incredibly tight bonds with people. After staging a revolution with them. After escaping and actually putting their former masters on the back foot and fighting back at their oppressors they made a futile yet final stand. Brothers in arms, comrades to the end about to choose death and freedom over life and slavery. Then Empy storms in and whisks him away, his comrades get slaughtered and Angron is mortified at what he perceives as his abandonment of his only real 'family' as he has had no choice in the matter. THIS is where the anger stems from as far as I understand. And to me it makes perfect sence. Martial honour and pride is a powerful emotion. Saa And all that talk of hurt pride is fairly well negated when takes into account that Angron accepted the Emperor's cause as his own, fights in the Emperor's name with the Emperor's army of Angron's own gene sons...only to turn them into frothing degenerate madmen AGAINST the wishes of the Emperor. It makes any cries of "oh my honor and beloved comrades" look very hypocritical. By agreeing to the Emperor's vision of the Imperium and agreeing to lead his armies, he tacitly agrees that the Emperor made the right choice: Let some doomed rebels die to gain compliance from a world for the greater good of humanity. In addition, the Emperor, big picture guy to say the least, demonstrates more compassion and concern for the Legion than Angron. Very little "brothers in arms" there. We are told (via the authors) that his martial pride was hurt, yet we do not "see" any examples of that martial honor or pride thereafter. He completely ignores his new comrades in arms, those that share his very genetic code, and just rages while subjecting the World Eaters to twisted experiments and doctrine. There is precious little pride or honor demonstrated by Angron's actions. @Khestra The IA does state that was the last battle for Angron and his army. They had dug their own graves during the night and were prepared to die. The rebellion had failed. Not the Emperor's fault they died. Granted, they might make him 3 dimensional, but when the whole schtick is RAGERAGERAGERAGE its hard to work with that. Of course, if ADB does it, it will probably be awesome regardless. As for the whole "No Daddy wahhhhh" discussion, lets not forget Lion El'Jonson. Quality upbringing in those picturesque death world chaos tainted forests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/page/3/#findComment-2875402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saa Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Again I feel you're missing the point. Neither the Emperor nor the War Hounds/World Eaters are Angrons brothers in arms. They are tools to be used by him. You're comparing chalk and cheese. His eventual acceptance of heading the legion isn't born from accepting the Emperors vision, but more out of a grandiose view of fighting tyranny on a larger scale. He still sees Empy as an oppressor himself which is why when Horus offers him the opportunity to stand against his 'master' who intends to use the citizens of the Imperium as his own worshippers (yes 'we' know that's not true) he leaps at the chance. Plus those rage implants don't make for rational thought processes. That does need to be factored in too Saa Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/page/3/#findComment-2875424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Curze didn't act like a child, he acted like the schitzophrenic man he was. He had constant visions of his own death and other ugly things. This combined with the way he raised himself as a vigilante who enforces the law by fear = acting like a child? Angron just simply needs to be flushed out much much more. We're still nowhere near the end of the HH so I wouldn't worry too much about it yet. I'm still dying to read a World Eater book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/page/3/#findComment-2875434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Again I feel you're missing the point. Neither the Emperor nor the War Hounds/World Eaters are Angrons brothers in arms. They are tools to be used by him. You're comparing chalk and cheese. His eventual acceptance of heading the legion isn't born from accepting the Emperors vision, but more out of a grandiose view of fighting tyranny on a larger scale. He still sees Empy as an oppressor himself which is why when Horus offers him the opportunity to stand against his 'master' who intends to use the citizens of the Imperium as his own worshippers (yes 'we' know that's not true) he leaps at the chance. Plus those rage implants don't make for rational thought processes. That does need to be factored in too Saa I just don't believe the point is valid. How could they be considered tools when he fought and bled with them, trained them, and led them into battle just as he did the old gladiators? What is more, they were his own gene-sons, there is that whole instinctive acknowledgement of kinship. He fought with the Emperor's tools, the Emperor's troops, for the Emperor's cause. If he truly resented the Emperor's actions, he could have refused to fight for him. By doing so, he validated the Emperor's decision. Plus, I still believe his actions, particularly the rage implant activities, are the mark of a terrible idiot or hypocrite. And I agree the rage implants make things difficult and were used as terrible tools of oppression...yet Angron continued their use. (going back to the hypocrisy note) His rage inducers and one act weighed against his decades long service to the Imperium and own atrocious actions including the continuation of the same practices as "oppressors" which he claims to oppose makes his rage the act of a hypocrite, fool, or rabid dog. @Tanith Ghost It's rather the argument posited about "lost childhood" posited earlier in the thread. It breaks down to since they didn't have a pleasant childhood or good daddy, it justifies betrayal and genocide on a galactic scale. I simply brought up the Lion who also lacked a pleasant father figure and didn't go completely bat:cusse. Or Horus who was beloved as a son and still turned traitor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/page/3/#findComment-2875544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Yes I read the whole thread before posting. On the point of the lion, he had knightly figures that helped shape his ideals whereas Konrad had no one and Angron had gladiators. Really I don't believe we can really judge Angron until we get more fluff on him. The established fluff isn't well explained or fleshed out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/237745-how-disappointed-would-you-be/page/3/#findComment-2875559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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